On Genesis and Exodus

[Brickjectivity]

Can you provide the evidence that briar relied on? Is there any Egyptian evidence? Otherwise it may be a case of fitting history to the Bible.

It was just something he mentioned in a series of lectures that was a survey of all of the Pharoahs of Egypt. I don't remember which lecture. He's not a bible missionary though. He's a professor who teaches Archeology, studies ancient Egypt and mummies.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala I found a page about Egyptian History that mention the color changes. It is a touring company's web page. They mention the tributaries which yearly will change the blue nile to red and green.

"The change in color of the Nile during the flood season is again caused by tributaries. Red is the mountain minerals contained in the water, traces of melted glaciers. Green is a heritage of tropical vegetation."​

Egypt Nile River: Map, History, Facts, Location, Source

The Nile River, flowing through Egypt, is a lifeline and a major tourist attraction, offering a unique blend of history and culture.

jakadatoursegypt.com

 

[dybmh]

What do you think that I didn't understand?

What I wrote and the reason why there is NO distinction between children of israel and people of israel in Exo 19-20.

You have rec'd clarification from the story that this distinction is not in the text at all. This thread is about what is *actually* written. The mixed multitude was at sinai and beyond into the wilderness. They are in the book of Numbers in the wilderness.

 

[dybmh]

Yeah water doesn't turn into blood. Yeah so what are the meanings of blood according to Hebrews who were Yadavas back when?

The word in Hebrew has several meanings. I doubt very highly that any of that links up to the Yadavas. The important detail in the story is this. The nile river was a god in the egyptian religion. All the plagues struck down the egyptian gods in one way or another proving they weren't actually gods at all. They're just forces of nature which are under complete control of the one and only God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The entire story is located in egypt. The story doesn't make sense otherwise without dramatically changing how it is written or ignoring details.

Wow so blood also means silent or still., because a river could possibly stop flowing., oh Hakra river water became stagnant., to the point

If the location is being changed, then what is the signifance of the Hakra river? was it a god? What about the other plagues? Did they somehow also strike down the other gods and render them into mundane forces of nature?

Can this alternate reimagined narrative of the Yadavas be told in a complete and cohesive manner without changing anything? There needs to be real signifcance to each important plot point and detail.

 

[Ebionite]

What I wrote and the reason why there is NO distinction between children of israel and people of israel in Exo 19-20.

You previously argued that the people of Israel were not the people of Exo19-20, but rather the mixed multitude of Sukkot, which I pointed out involved animals, not Egyptians.

 

[dybmh]

You previously argued that the people of Israel were not the people of Exo19-20, but rather the mixed multitude of Sukkot, which I pointed out involved animals, not Egyptians.

Unqualified "people" in Exo 19-20 means it includes the mixed multitude.

I have no clue why it matters if animals are included. That has nothing to do with the word "people" unqualified.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you provide the evidence that briar relied on? Is there any Egyptian evidence? Otherwise it may be a case of fitting history to the Bible.

There is evidence from India.
Simple Geology. Rains bring down soil from mountains..
River Ganges in rainy season:

River Ganges in other than rainy season:

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah water doesn't turn into blood. Yeah so what are the meanings of blood according to Hebrews who were Yadavas back when?

oh Hakra river water became stagnant., to the point of appearing red as blood...

Hebrews and Yadus (Aryan tribe) were different people. The Yadavs of today's India are not Aryan Yadus.
There is hardly any similarity between Vedic Sanskrit that Yadus must have spoken and Hebrew.
(Unless Israel wants Yadavs of today's India, to come to Israel and fight the Palestinians for them).

Yeah, a river bearing a huge amount of soil and not much flow will seem reddish. Hakra is an extension in Pakistan of the Ghaggar River of India. It gets water only in the rainy season and it dries up in Pakistan's Cholistan desert. In Ancient times (circa 2,000 BCE) it was a much bigger river known as Saraswati.

 

[dybmh]

@River Sea ,

Here is archeological evidence indicating that the story of "the river turning to blood" is occuring in Egypt. It's written by an Egyptian, a non-biased 3rd party. The dating of the papyrus also syncs up.

This isn't proof. It's evidence.

Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bthoth]

Hi everyone. I'm a new member and I don't know if this is the right place to post about this. I've just started reading the Bible and finished Genesis and Exodus. I'm reading it in Spanish, so sorry if places, concepts or names are translated wrong to English.

- Genesis

1) The Babel Tower: in this story, humanity, who speaks the same language, decides to build a tower that reaches heaven and God to become famous and not disperse across the earth. God came down and saw it and scattered everyone throughout the land and made them speak in different languages and they did not understand each other. A generic interpretation indicates that this passage explains the origin of all languages and cultures, as a consequence of divine punishment. But, in Hebrew they do not say “those who spoke the same language”, but rather they use the expression “the whole earth had one lip”, which has nothing to do with the question of language, but rather of power. That is, everyone was subject to an emperor who used the tax system to oppress others and maintain power. The conquerors built towers as a symbol of power, whose top floor was destined for the divinity, who came down from heaven to speak with the emperor. In this way they tried to convince the people that divinity was on the side of the oppressor. Then, could it be interpreted that God came down and destroyed the tower, a symbol of union between the oppressor and divinity, to free the people from the “one lip"? So it is not a punishment but a liberation? Reading it today, can it be a reflection on globalization? Is it suitable for all people? What role are all institutions, including religion, play in this process?

2) Joseph: After being sold by his brothers, Joseph interprets Pharaoh's dreams and is appointed prime minister, managing the grain impeccably in the face of the imminent famine that he himself predicts. His agrarian policy consisted of the following steps: First, all the money and purchasing power of the people who bought grain from Egypt were absorbed. Then all their belongings and livestock are demanded. Finally, having exhausted all of the above, Egypt is left with the peasants' lands and the people themselves become their properties, becoming serfs and slaves. This passage caught my attention because it could be said that thanks to the political and economic decisions of Joseph, who seeks the benefit of Pharaoh and, therefore, of the Egyptians, a system ends up being created where the same people are forced to sell themselves. to be able to eat, but then we move on to the Exodus, where slavery is criticized and denounced when it afflicts the Hebrews. But isn't Joseph partly responsible for creating a similar system?

- Exodus

1) 1 : 15-16 : Regarding the issue of the midwives, in Hebrew it is not specified exactly if they were Hebrew or if they were the midwives of the Hebrew women, that is, they were Egyptian. Does it seem like it's open to the reader's interpretation? Which is ambiguous on purpose. There are some who think they are Egyptian because Pharaoh wouldn't waste his time asking Jewish women to kill Jewish children. On the other hand, one can think that they were Hebrews and draw a good lesson from it for today: a tyrant who empowers women to murder his men. He wants to "feminize" the Hebrews. The first thing a tyrant wants to do is get rid of the figures that may be an opposing force to his system. What do you guys think?

2) The Golden Calf: Tired of waiting forty days for Moses, the people tell Aaron that they want another God, since they do not know where Moses is or when he will return. Aaron relents and builds a golden calf for them, which the people idolize and offer sacrifices to, being unfaithful to the Alliance. Moses comes down from the mountain and sees how the people dance under the golden calf. Moses, angry, throws the tables and breaks them. He destroys the calf and cremates it, forcing the people to drink the ashes. He commands the Levites, uncontaminated by the worship of the calf, to kill the unbelievers. Around three thousand people die.

The priestly line that prevailed in Israel comes from the nucleus of priests who officiated in Jerusalem when the elimination of all local sanctuaries was decreed, leaving the temple of Jerusalem as the only sacred place. A very serious religious and economic conflict occurred since the rest of the priests, most of them Levites, were left without work and without the right to officiate. They were objects of public charity, like widows and orphans. The priests of Jerusalem, Zadokite and not Levitical, managed to demonstrate their descent through the line of Aaron.

So my question is, on what grounds do the priests that say that they come from the line of Aaron (the one that commanded the Golden Calf to be built and let the people worship it) consider themselves above the priests form the line of the Levites (the only ones uncontaminated by the worship of the calf)?

Thanks for reading, sorry if something is confusing or, now that I think about it, maybe this is too long, haha. But yeah, hope someone can answer me and I can learn more ))

Thank you for reminding me that people can think and mentally debate even the religious opinions / stories.

 

[Bthoth]

@River Sea ,

Here is archeological evidence indicating that the story of "the river turning to blood" is occuring in Egypt. It's written by an Egyptian, a non-biased 3rd party. The dating of the papyrus also syncs up.

This isn't proof. It's evidence.

Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Much of the biblical story lines are egyptian. For example; monotheism.

 

[dybmh]

Much of the biblical story lines are egyptian. For example; monotheism.

I've researched these claims myself and have always found them ... underwhelming. How much have you researched it? Have you tried to look at both the sides of the question objectively?

 

[Bthoth]

I've researched these claims myself and have always found them ... underwhelming. How much have you researched it? Have you tried to look at both the sides of the question objectively?

There is evidence of "Under King Akhenaten's rule, Egypt moved to worship a single sun god, Aten, thus forming Atenism. Akhenaten's institution of monotheism throughout 14th century BCE Africa, though brief and quickly overturned, bears striking similarities to the three Abrahamic religions of today"

Just as the commandments existed in egypt well before the story of Moses was even written.

I have no contempt for Judaism, just how proprietary is asserted for the wisdom left by the scribes.

What do you expect will be unveiled when the truth is realized about many of the stories? Keep the scope that God has far more to give than just what is real.

 

[dybmh]

There is evidence of "Under King Akhenaten's rule, Egypt moved to worship a single sun god, Aten, thus forming Atenism. Akhenaten's institution of monotheism throughout 14th century BCE Africa, though brief and quickly overturned, bears striking similarities to the three Abrahamic religions of today"

Just as the commandments existed in egypt well before the story of Moses was even written.

I have no contempt for Judaism, just how proprietary is asserted for the wisdom left by the scribes.

What do you expect will be unveiled when the truth is realized about many of the stories? Keep the scope that God has far more to give than just what is real.

I asked: "How much have you researched it? Have you tried to look at both the sides of the question objectively?"

You didn't answer my question, but, instead you are talking AT me. Would you like to talk WITH me? Friend?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@River Sea ,

Here is archeological evidence indicating that the story of "the river turning to blood" is occuring in Egypt. It's written by an Egyptian, a non-biased 3rd party. The dating of the papyrus also syncs up.

This isn't proof. It's evidence.

Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The content section of iwper given on the page has no mention of river turning blood. The exodus section rubbishes the connection with exodus. Further, six of the ten plagues such as that of boils are connected with SHORTAGE of water whereas the sediment laden nile flew when there were flood.like conditions.

 

[dybmh]

The content section of iwper given on the page has no mention of river turning blood. The exodus section rubbishes the connection with exodus. Further, six of the ten plagues such as that of boils are connected with SHORTAGE of water whereas the sediment laden nile flew when there were flood.like conditions.

I see what you mean. It doesn't explicitly say the word "turning". I think it's implied when it says: "during" disastrous floods or turmoil. But we need to read it to see what it actually says. I'll see if I can find a translation somewhere.

The papyrus' statement that the "river is blood" phrase may refer to the red sediment colouring the Nile during disastrous floods, or simply be a poetic image of turmoil.​

​

​

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I see what you mean. It doesn't explicitly say the word "turning". I think it's implied when it says: "during" disastrous floods or turmoil. But we need to read it to see what it actually says. I'll see if I can find a translation somewhere.

The papyrus' statement that the "river is blood" phrase may refer to the red sediment colouring the Nile during disastrous floods, or simply be a poetic image of turmoil.​

​

​

But I cannot find where it says blood.

 

[dybmh]

The content section of iwper given on the page has no mention of river turning blood. The exodus section rubbishes the connection with exodus. Further, six of the ten plagues such as that of boils are connected with SHORTAGE of water whereas the sediment laden nile flew when there were flood.like conditions.

Are there any written stories of a river "turning to blood" in the area Yadav's / Yadus' region in the appropriate historical period?

 

[dybmh]

But I cannot find where it says blood.

Here it is. It doesn't use the word "turned". It's in a spoiler because I'm on my phone, and the picture might copy over very large.

Spoiler: The River Is Blood

Regardless. Reading the actual papyrus is better than any wiki article. Agreed? It doesn't matter what wikipedia says. What matters are the letters that were scribed.

 

[dybmh]

Here is a link to a translation. The scholarhship in the article follows the dissappointing pattern of so many. It begins the analysis saying it's possible that it preceeds the stories in the written Torah, but then later, it uses definitive unqualified language which presumes that the "possible" is absolute fact.

That said. This papyrus describes: "what the ancestors foretold has arrived at [fruition]". This means that, in context, when it reports that the "the river is blood", that means, "the river has turned to blood as it was foretold."

The Admonitions of Ipuwer

The Admonitions of Ipuwer (also known as The Papyrus Ipuwer and The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage) is a literary text dated to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (2040-1782 BCE). The only extant copy of...

www.worldhistory.org

I didn't read the entire translation. I started at the begininng and went quite a bit beyond the declaration, "the river is blood", to be sure that it was still in the context of "what the ancestors foretold has arrived".