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On Genesis and Exodus
- Thread starter ghostofachance
- Start date
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala please help me. This is River Sea and please help me with Jarasandha story, the Pharaoh,
You shown me was the Pharaoh.
from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala that Krishna had a long battle with Jarasandh similar to Moses had a long battle with Pharaoh
River with color red in Indus Valley, and the Pharaoh was Jarasandha am I understanding correctly?
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Pharoah was a title. There was one at the time of abraham. There was one when moses was born, killed a mitsrite and fled. This was kamsa. 2nd when moses returned. This was jarasandha. Tentatively.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Can you post again where the ancestors said blood? Cannot find it.Here is a link to a translation. The scholarhship in the article follows the dissappointing pattern of so many. It begins the analysis saying it's possible that it preceeds the stories in the written Torah, but then later, it uses definitive unqualified language which presumes that the "possible" is absolute fact.
That said. This papyrus describes: "what the ancestors foretold has arrived at [fruition]". This means that, in context, when it reports that the "the river is blood", that means, "the river has turned to blood as it was foretold."
The Admonitions of Ipuwer
The Admonitions of Ipuwer (also known as The Papyrus Ipuwer and The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage) is a literary text dated to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (2040-1782 BCE). The only extant copy of...www.worldhistory.org
I didn't read the entire translation. I started at the begininng and went quite a bit beyond the declaration, "the river is blood", to be sure that it was still in the context of "what the ancestors foretold has arrived".
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Not blood. But it says the river became a pond. That is same as bible saying the river became sthagnant. The word for blood also means stagnant.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Becomes a pond, stagnates, is understandable. The diminished Sarasvati river became a pond in what Bhagawat Purana calls as 'Vinashan', somewhere in the Cholistan desert of Pakistan. It happens even now. The waters of River Ghaggar do not reach the sea.
But what is the connection between Pharaoh, Moses and Kams, Krishna and Jarasandha? As we say in India, 'Bater bazi'.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Moses led the exodus from india to israel. Six of the 10 plagues described in the Bible have connection with scarcity of fresh water that does not match with egypt.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Why does India does not remember anything about Moses or his exodus?
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
India remembers Moses as Krishna. Mausala parva says krishna left for an unknown country. That was exodus.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
From the link. Using the browser to search makes this easy.
The Admonitions of Ipuwer
The Admonitions of Ipuwer (also known as The Papyrus Ipuwer and The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage) is a literary text dated to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (2040-1782 BCE). The only extant copy of...
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That does not seem to be likely. You are probably just mixing myths.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I would very much appreciate reading ths story. This is the "sacred text" forum. It would be wonderful to read this for direct comparrison.
Do you have a version that can be read online?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think I understand your point of view, but, when I look up this story with Jarasandh, it is not at all similar to Moses.
The reason these stories in the Hebrew bible are adopted by so many is because they *resonate* in spite of geographic divergence. I think it is perfectly natural. But I do not understand thee desire to change the story, and move it to different location.
Jarasandha - Wikipedia
Here is the death scene for Jarasandha. It doesn't match the exodus story. None of it matches very well by my estimation.
"Krishna then hinted Bhima that when fatigued, a person might die if pressed too hard. Bhima understood Krishna's hint, lifted Jarasandha in the air and pressed his knee against Jarasandha's backbone, killing him instantly."
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
"Idhar ki int, udhar ka roda, Bhanmati ne kunba joda"
(take a brick from here, and a stone from there, and that is how Bhanmati made her home)
i.e., forcibly joining two unrelated things to make up a story.
So Krishna is Moses and Rama is Adam (Is not Ramasetu known as Adam's Bridge?)
Krishna did not leave or an unknown country, he went to heaven (if you go by Mahabharata).
“A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking Kesava, who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey. Coming up, Jara beheld a man dressed in yellow robes, rapt in Yoga and endued with many arms. Regarding himself an offender, and filled with fear, he touched the feet of Kesava. The high-souled one comforted him and then ascended upwards, filling the entire welkin with splendour. When he reached Heaven,
Vasava and the twin Aswins and Rudra and the Adityas and the Vasus and the Viswedevas, and Munis and Siddhas and many foremost ones among the Gandharvas, with the Apsaras, advanced to receive him. Then, O king, .."
Translation of Mausala Parva by Kesari Mohan Ganguli - https://www.yorku.ca/inpar/mausala_ganguli.pdf
dybmh, you get some information here: Sarasvati River - Wikipedia
Bharat Jhunjhunwala does not discuss history, he creates his own.
Further, if you do not mind, would you kindly PM me your real name. 'dybmh' is sort of too complicated (or did you do that earlier?)..
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It's not a secret. My given name is Daniel Joseph. Daniel Yosef. D-Y. The M-H, is my father's given name, Mayer Hirsch. The B in the middle is the word ben", which means the "son-of". Daniel Yosef Ben Mayer Hirsch. D-Y-B-M-H.
But you can call me Daniel, Dan, Danny, "D"... any of those work.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If that were true, then everyone's blood would be stagnant and retched. What your missing is this:
כי־נפש הבשר בדם הוא ואני נתתיו לכם על־המזבח לכפר על־נפשתיכם כי־הדם הוא בנפש יכפר׃
For the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.
And:
ויאמר אלהים נעשה אדם בצלמנו כדמותנו וירדו בדגת הים ובעוף השמים ובבהמה ובכל־הארץ ובכל־הרמש הרמש על־הארץ׃
And God said, Let us make man in our image, like our form; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
The blood is a "vessel". A form. A dummy. Like a puppet. Lacking a soul it is silent. Just like a puppet lacking a master. It can mean silent. When? In hell. Dumah is one of the levels of hell. It's a version of silence that goes along with death. That's true. But it's not always silent, it's not always lacking a soul, obviously, or everyone with blood in their veins would be considred dead ( according to the story ).
Hell - Wikipedia
This ^^ is what I was talking about earlier. Each plague has significance. God, in the story, is showing that the other gods are nothing. Just mighty forces under God's complete and absolute control. It's an EGYPTIAN god that is being subverted. These are the sort of details which are needed in the alternate Indian version you are constructing / manufacturing.
Regardless, the plague is more than a stillness of the river. This is what is written in the story:
7:20
ויעשו־כן משה ואהרן כאשר צוה יהוה וירם במטה ויך את־המים אשר ביאר לעיני פרעה ולעיני עבדיו ויהפכו כל־המים אשר־ביאר לדם׃
And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
7:21
והדגה אשר־ביאר מתה ויבאש היאר ולא־יכלו מצרים לשתות מים מן־היאר ויהי הדם בכל־ארץ מצרים׃
And the fish that were in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
The blood was not limited to just the river. It was a much bigger plague than that.
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
This appears to be from NT. Not in Pentatuech. I do not deny it though. The scriptures have multiple meanings. We have to see which meaning fits the context. Considering blood as a part of10 plagues does not match this.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Here is a detailed examination of 10 plagues. The "Blood" could be a "vessel" as you say; but that is not the only meaning.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
This is a perfect description of the river becoming a pond.