"On this Rock I will build my church"

[Ben Avraham]

They didn't call them Mighty God though. But the Gentiles call Jesus, Mighty God.

You are not reading. I am reading from the JPS. "For a child (Judah) has been born to us (Gentiles) A son (Judah) has been given us (Gentiles) and authority has settled on his (Judah) shoulders. He (Judah) has been named the Mighty God..." (Isaiah 9:5)

 

[Ben Avraham]

I can use the OT also. Which I have, your no win over here bible proves you wrong again and again.

Prove it! You have your Bible with you, I know. So, use it to prove if I am wrong.

 

[Kemosloby]

You are not reading. I am reading from the JPS. "For a child (Judah) has been born to us (Gentiles) A son (Judah) has been given us (Gentiles) and authority has settled on his (Judah) shoulders. He (Judah) has been named the Mighty God..." (Isaiah 9:5)

It all falls apart at Mighty God doesn't it?

 

[COGTHW]

There is a big difference here. I am using the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach and you are using the gospel of Paul which was the NT. The god of the NT is Greek. So much so that the Greek doctrine of the demigod is quoted in Mat. 1:18. Demigod is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

Paul was a Jew ; Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; So... You are done your doctrine is false.

 

[Ben Avraham]

They didn't call them Mighty God though. But the Gentiles call Jesus, Mighty God.

See what I mean? Jesus was a Jew and Christians in general agree with it. If the Gentiles called the Jew Jesus Mighty
God, this is an evidence that the Gentiles of the Galilee did call the Jews returning from Babylon Mighty God. This proves that Isaiah was right.

 

[Kemosloby]

See what I mean? Jesus was a Jew and Christians in general agree with it. If the Gentiles called the Jew Jesus Mighty
God, this is an evidence that the Gentiles of the Galilee did call the Jews returning from Babylon Mighty God. This proves that Isaiah was right.

Not really, since the similarities were only a shadow of things to come, not a spitting image.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Paul was a Jew ; Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; So... You are done your doctrine is false.

Sorry if I must tell you this: Paul was a psychopath liar. First, at the time he wrote this letter, he was no longer a Jew. He had given up his Jewish identity when he founded an anti-Jewish church aka a Christian church. And second, he was never a Pharisee. Pharisee by definition means the separated one. Pharisees would never accept a Hellenistic Jews in their Yeshiva. That's why, among other reasons, he hated Pharisees.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not really, since the similarities were only a shadow of things to come, not a spitting image.

Now, you are verbal juggling with nonsense.

 

[COGTHW]

Sorry if I must tell you this: Paul was a psychopath liar. First, at the time he wrote this letter, he was no longer a Jew. He had given up his Jewish identity when he founded an anti-Jewish church aka a Christian church. And second, he was never a Pharisee. Pharisee by definition means the separated one. Pharisees would never accept a Hellenistic Jews in their Yeshiva. That's why, among other reasons, he hated Pharisees.

I'm done having dialogue with you, you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It all falls apart at Mighty God doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. No difference between the Gentiles welcoming the Jews coming from Babylon and the Gentiles of Jesus' time. Both would call the Jews Mighty God. (Isaiah 9:5)

 

[Ben Avraham]

I'm done having dialogue with you, you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

And who can judge who is blaspheming between you and me, you! Hardly!

 

[Kemosloby]

Now, you are verbal juggling with nonsense.

So are you, since nobody ever called Judah Mighty God...
After all you said about jews not calling men God would they really ever call the returning Jews "Mighty God"?

 

[Kemosloby]

No, it doesn't. No difference between the Gentiles welcoming the Jews coming from Babylon and the Gentiles of Jesus' time. Both would call the Jews Mighty God. (Isaiah 9:5)

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I don't think they would.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

First let me assure you all that my mate Christ WAS NOT A JEW - not at all - He may have chosen that time place and culture but NO He did NOT advocate their god OR their "religion" at all and in fact repeatedly told the people to come away from the Pharisee who misleads them - to come away from the temple with its uselwss rituals prayers and doctrines - to avoid and shun all that aspect completely - and instead to seek the LEGITIMATE DIVINE that He said EMPHATICALLY that NOBODY had EVER known of or encountered EVER before !!

Our Father is NOT the god of the Hebrews and He does make that very very clear - explains it all in step by step detail actually...For THIS truth the Hebrews had Him murdered - never forget that - they act to SILENCE Him and His THREAT to " their authority" and for the threat to their so called "god" - which is NOT a god at all according to Christ, but merely an Angel as He termed it that is tricking and deceiving us all..For these things He said openly they do indeed murder Him to silence His truth and His direct threat to their bogus authority.....I can show you (all) - and have done elsewhere - lots and lots and LOTS of scripture, both ORIGINAL and even in the sanctioned bible itself - that show categorigally that Christ is AGAINST that Hebrew god - AGAINST its established religion and authority and that that "god" itself is NOT the Father, legitimate spirit that Christ alone taught of... To call Christ a Jew and to work from THAT assumption, is a total error that leads us fully away from His truth and right back to that bogus "god" that He came to set us free from....

Indeed He said it all clearly - come to give you a TRUTH He said that does indeed SET YOU FREE....HIS words yes..?....Understand then - if we are to be set free - then that means we must be now, in bondage ,slavery. yes..??....And as it is merely a SPOKEN TRUTH He gives that sets us free - then obviously the things that binds us and holds us captive must be the such things as LIES - ERRORS - DECEIPT... Look -HIS turh - is NOT the OLD truth - He came to set you (all) free FROM THAT - lies errors deceipts OF that Hebrew god given BY its religion !!!

Do you (all) begin to see now - WHY - He says such things as - HATE your parents..? - DAMN the PHARISEE - QUIT babbling like a pagan - useless temple prayers and rituals now to be done away with...??...He said it ALL because simply THAT god is NOT OUR FATHER !!! So most obviously having said all that, then absolutely NO WAY can we even think of Christ AS a Jew - absurd - to BE a Jew you must obviously have faith in the Hebrew "god" - and look Christ turns us AGAINST that whole schism at every opportunity - so no He is NOT a Jew at all has NO AFFILIATION to their god as that one is NOT Our Father....when they realised that THIS was what He meant -and when they saw HE IS LEGITIMATE by virtue of all those MIRACLES that no priest of Yhvh could perform - they realised He is a DIRECT THREAT to their authority so they act as said and murder Him to silence His truth (so they thought)....

Christ is NOT a Jew - has NO affiliation to that god - and it serves us best to simply forget any and all scripture that tries to tie Him back TO that so called "god" ....This really does need to be understood clearly if we want HIS truth.....Such as this issie here thread topic - the rock and its meaning for a name change for Simon.....Forget the TAUGHT meaning - forget the religious baggage altogether....Look at it as said - Christ is explaining to them all a completely NEW TRUTH about a Divine spirit that NONE HAVE ENCOUNTERED BEFORE.... Remember this premise always whenever we encounter scripture about Him, and it will all begin to make perfect sense - such as here again from bible Matthew :

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

:

Keep the CONTEXT - He is speaking of something they have NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF.. WHO am I He asks - you are the one the old religious prophets speak of they say and even think He IS an old prophet reincarnated..lol...So He says NO try again - Who do YOU say Iam He asks - Simon says you are INDEED THE CHRIST...YES He says you are blessed - have truth revealed BY MY FATHER DIRECTLY - and NOT from all that old religious malarky learned from OTHERS - flesh and blood - MEN - did NOT give you truth He says....Let THAT sink in deep Folks....

My Father in Heaven revealed it He says - SPIRITUAL TRUTH IS ALWAYS GIVEN DIRECTLY - mind to mind spirit to spirit....

Therefore He says you SIMON are PETER - the FOUNDATION - for Simon has the DIRECT REVELATION OF TRUTH - and THIS phenomena itself IS THE FOUNDATION of ALL that HE teaches - the DIRECT COMMUNION mortal and Divine always....This IS the explanation for the name change - obviously - not the "specific person" of Simon - could have been ANYONE - but the crucial factor is the phenomena itself of DIRECT revelation.....It just so happened that it was Simon who would Understand and attain the truth FIRST - but it could have been anyone of them...Christ of course KNEW that Simon WOULD be first - and so immediately they meet He gives Him this new name to reflect this DIRECT REVELATION that Simon alone will have first... Could have been anyone of them - it is the phenomena itself -the DIRECT REVELATION OF TRUTH that is the ONLY important part...

And dont miss that other crucial part - FLESH AND BLOOD DID NOT REVEAL TRUTH He said....The old prophets they mention DID NOT GIVE THE TRUTH He says clearly....The truth came DIRECTLY from my Father WHO THESE OTHERS DO NOT KNOW !!! Now build your faith - your "church" upon THIS FOUNDATION that truth of the Father is REVEALED DIRECTLY and does NOT come from flesh and blood MEN !!!

Let THAT part sink in VERY deep indeed Folks...MEN can NOT give you teruth of my Father - is it ALWAYS revealed DIRECTLY - GNOSIS is th eaim and goal we seek always - LIVING TRUTH - NOT academic secondhand truth form an other man or book or doctine - NVER THAT so shuna and avoid all that religious malarky just as He REPEATEDLY teaches - this is EXACTLY what He means - the spiritual truth is ALWAYS delivered directly - mind to mind spirit to spirit - listening to and following after these others will ALWAYS lead you astray and can do nothing else BUT lead you astray...It is a PERSONAL DIRECT COMMUNION that we are to seek ALWAYS - no middleman, no priest no guru teacher master religion doctrine or ritual ever needed....Flesh and blood - men and their schisms can NOT give you this truth....

See and understand - my Father - is NOT that Hebrew god - this is WHY He tells them every chance He can to come away from that negative religious man made influence - hate the parents - damn the pharisee - flesh and blood do NOT reveal spiritual truth...add it all up - see Iam right - my Father is NOT that Hebrew god and we HAVE been fully duped just as our mate warned us... For those with ears to hear...

 

[COGTHW]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I don't think they would.

He has committed the unforgivable.

 

[Ron Hackel]

The plural in Hebrew is always taken as two if it is not proceeded by a number. The 2 keys were given to Peter and the church.

LUKE 11 : 52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you haven taken away the KEY of knowledge."

The new church would have the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus to aid them.

The knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God, was the rock that the new church would be built on. Jesus had little resemblance to the god shown the Jews at Mount Sinai and for good reason. The Jews had grumbled that God had led them out into the desert just to be killed by the Egyptians when they saw them coming from the west as they were camped by the Red Sea. God saved them by opening the sea. A few days later they grumbled that God had saved them from the Egyptians just so they could die of thirst when they came to the acidic oasis. God then made the water drinkable at Marah and they praised him. A few days later though they started running low on food and they grumbled again that he had given them water just so they could starve to death. As it says in Hebrews 8:9 "when I took them by the hand". He led them like the loving Father that he is. They however couldn't wrap their minds around that type of God.

When the Jews got to Mount Sinai they asked for the pagan gods like they had back in Egypt. God as a loving father gave them their wish. They told Moses that they didn't want to hear or see this god again. God obliged them.

DEUTERONOMY 18 : 15-18 "The Lord your God will raise up a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore or we will die.' The Lord said to me: 'What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."

As Jesus said: John 8 : 28 "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me"

God at Mount Sinai became a pagan god for the Jews because that it what they desired. Jesus came to show what God was really like. Name in Hebrew means one's character.

JOHN 5 : 43 "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me"

The Mount Sinai god said eye for eye. Jesus said no. The Mount Sinai god allowed divorce. Jesus said that was not how it was from the beginning and said it was allowed because they had hard hearts. Pagan gods come from the minds of men. And I am talking about males. They were the stronger and controlled religion. Think of how the Mount Sinai god reflected the thoughts of males. If a man was caught raping a girl he had to pay the father 50 shekels of silver. If a girl was caught having sex before marriage (not rape, just sex) she was stoned to death at her father's door. Since the Bible says God shows no favoritism it is an easy deduction that this was not a true reflection of God. Jesus came to show the truth about the Father

JOHN 19 : 37 In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth."

The entire Christian church worships this same pagan god.

 

[Desert Snake]

The statements can be unrelated. /ie You are peter, and on this, //truth, so forth, He will build the church. He doesn't say, and on peter I will build the church

 

[Ben Avraham]

The statements can be unrelated. /ie You are peter, and on this, //truth, so forth, He will build the church. He doesn't say, and on peter I will build the church

Jews don't build churches and, Jesus and Peter were two Jewish gentlemen.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And yet the news tells a much different story. *sigh*

A Jew would never say to another, you are the son of God.

I thought "son of God" was an expression. We are all children of God, yes?

How do you figure Matt 23 13-33 says Jesus sinned?

Jesus sins throughout, actually. Dishonors his parents, (depending on the author) promotes a god (himself) over the Father, steals (either directly or indirectly via vandalism), promotes bigotry towards gentiles (note that only gentiles have to CONVINCE him to help, whereas he just helps Jews no problem), is a hypocrite (don't do public worship or prayer ... except for all the times I am doing massive spectacles) ... etc, etc.

If Jesus had sinned he would have been a hypocrite for faulting the moneychangers. "let him who has no sin cast the first stone"

The funny thing is, I read the Mahabharata and the "heroes" in that story can be just as hypocritical. However, unlike the bible, it's refreshing to note the hypocrisy is acknowledged and dealt with. The NT, especially, tries to whitewash the hypocrisy just overflowing in its narratives.

That's why Jesus said this 'But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.' Matthew 10:33

And then Peter ...

He punished them just like God will punish them in Revelation 21:8

You would think a divinely sent Messiah could think of something more mature to do then chase people out with whips.

ou can never compare God with man. That's totally impossible to figure.

God does it all the time in the bible.

If God could speak to Moses out of a bush, why not out of a man?

A bush is odd. Men are a dime a dozen.

Paul was a Jew

Who also was awfully quick to claim the hated Roman citizenship when he thought it'd get him out of trouble with the state...

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; So... You are done your doctrine is false.

He has to try to get his street cred back after being an obvious Hellenist Roman citizen. He turned against Judaism and stoning Christians. He became a Trojan Horse, realizing he wasn't stopping Christianity from without so he could do way more damage from within. The ACTUAL apostles who had ACTUALLY been with Jesus called him out on his lack of Jewishness and thus, this feeble attempt to prove he was still a Jew.

I'm done having dialogue with you, you blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Paul is the Holy Ghost now? I mean, I know idolatry runs rampant throughout Christianity, but ...

 

[Tumah]

Paul was a Jew ; Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; So... You are done your doctrine is false.

What exactly do you think it proves by stating that Paul was a [Pharisaic] Jew?