One question for Creationists, and another for Evolutionists

[James Humphreys]

I have two questions, but I think those questions may generate debate. First, for those that consider themselves Creationists, or somewhere in the Intelligent Design camp, by what means did God actually create all the different species? For instance, was it out of nothing? Or did he have some formative energy to begin with? Was there one moment when a cow didn't exist, and then suddenly one appeared, kind of like magic? Or did God use the body of a different species to give birth to the first cow?

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

To let you know where I stand, I am a strong believer in God, and that he created all things with a purpose. However, I consider it to be a strong possibility that there is lineal connection between species, in which case evolution would describe the outward appearance of a process being guided by God.

 

[Valjean]

I don't know how an eternal spirit would affect evolution. Evolution works with concrete matter through physical and chemical processes. "Spirit" seems outside the system and unlikely to play a partin it.

 

[doppelganger]

I have two questions, but I think those questions may generate debate. First, for those that consider themselves Creationists, or somewhere in the Intelligent Design camp, by what means did God actually create all the different species? For instance, was it out of nothing? Or did he have some formative energy to begin with?

By the power of your divine Logos, the Creator brought order out of chaos.

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

Same answer as to the first question. Human spiritual experience is revealed in evolution as it places creation of living things (including "humans" and the individual) within the realm of immutable laws. These immutable (divine) laws structure and define the patterns that result from our action in organizing life into categories or species.

 

[Super Universe]

God created DNA, but DNA is much more capable than the scientists now know of. Currently humans only have a double helix but it is capable of more. DNA isn't just biological instructions it also attracts spirit for animals and both spirit and a soul for humans.

As for evolution, it is only population control. It does not control the changing of a species. Scientists think that over time evolution brought about complex beings but this isn't true. They are simply much too complex to happen by accident.

If you try to form something as complex as a heart there are too many things that have to be precisely perfect in order for it to work: blood viscosity, cellular capability and size, volume, temperature control, artery and vein sizing and strength, energy requirements, placement in the body, and each of these alone has hundreds of specifcs that had to be within strict tolerances at the same time otherwise the heart would not work.

Within DNA is the guideline for what a species will evolve into but with any new experiment there are always unknowns. There are too many variables. When the changes happen they do not happen gradually, they happen suddenly and not because of environmental pressure as your scientists think. The DNA is activated to change.

 

[gnomon]

I have two questions, but I think those questions may generate debate. First, for those that consider themselves Creationists, or somewhere in the Intelligent Design camp, by what means did God actually create all the different species? For instance, was it out of nothing? Or did he have some formative energy to begin with? Was there one moment when a cow didn't exist, and then suddenly one appeared, kind of like magic? Or did God use the body of a different species to give birth to the first cow?

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

To let you know where I stand, I am a strong believer in God, and that he created all things with a purpose. However, I consider it to be a strong possibility that there is lineal connection between species, in which case evolution would describe the outward appearance of a process being guided by God.

I'm a materialist and I find the concept of an eternal human spirit irrelevant to any question of the human condition and basically a form of unjustified arrogance on the part of spiritual people.

 

[Zeno]

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

I would say it has no bearing on the theory of evolution. However, I would understand the question better if you defined what you mean by eternal human spirit - as that is a vague term.

God created DNA, but DNA is much more capable than the scientists now know of. Currently humans only have a double helix but it is capable of more. DNA isn't just biological instructions it also attracts spirit for animals and both spirit and a soul for humans.

As for evolution, it is only population control. It does not control the changing of a species. Scientists think that over time evolution brought about complex beings but this isn't true. They are simply much too complex to happen by accident.

If you try to form something as complex as a heart there are too many things that have to be precisely perfect in order for it to work: blood viscosity, cellular capability and size, volume, temperature control, artery and vein sizing and strength, energy requirements, placement in the body, and each of these alone has hundreds of specifcs that had to be within strict tolerances at the same time otherwise the heart would not work.

Within DNA is the guideline for what a species will evolve into but with any new experiment there are always unknowns. There are too many variables. When the changes happen they do not happen gradually, they happen suddenly and not because of environmental pressure as your scientists think. The DNA is activated to change.

What??

 

[Jaymes]

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

I don't think it does, since I don't believe in such a thing.

 

[Prometheus]

As for evolution, it is only population control. It does not control the changing of a species. Scientists think that over time evolution brought about complex beings but this isn't true. They are simply much too complex to happen by accident.

It was no accident.

If you try to form something as complex as a heart there are too many things that have to be precisely perfect in order for it to work: blood viscosity, cellular capability and size, volume, temperature control, artery and vein sizing and strength, energy requirements, placement in the body, and each of these alone has hundreds of specifcs that had to be within strict tolerances at the same time otherwise the heart would not work.

Each piece of the puzzle served a different function before it was used as the foundation for something else. We've yet to discover anything, a flagellum, an eye, an immune system, or even a heart that is irreducibly complex.

Within DNA is the guideline for what a species will evolve into but with any new experiment there are always unknowns. There are too many variables. When the changes happen they do not happen gradually, they happen suddenly and not because of environmental pressure as your scientists think. The DNA is activated to change.

Can you back this up?

 

[Panda]

I dont think a spirit exists so it has no bearing on evoloution.

 

[fantome profane]

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

This is an excellent question (they are both excellent questions, but I am going to try to respond to this one.)

I am not quite sure what you mean by eternal human spirit. I know you asked us to put aside the idea of whether such a thing can be proved or not, but unfortunately I think that it is central to the question. If you are talking about something “supernatural” that cannot be detected through natural means, then it is something that has no effect on natural material. If it had an effect on natural material it would be detectable. So since it is not detectable, it has no effect on natural material, and therefore it cannot have had any effect on a natural process.

If you are talking about the human spirit in the sense of human desires, aspirations, hopes and dreams, then that is another matter. I don’t think that the human spirit in this sense has had an impact on human evolution in the past, but it may have an impact in the future. The human spirit has already had a drastic effect on the evolution of other species, in many cases the human spirit has guided them right to extinction. Who can say what wonders the human spirit has in store of us in the future?

By the power of your divine Logos, the Creator brought order out of chaos.

Do you really understand that? If you do could you help me? I haven’t got a clue. How did the “Creator” bring order out of chaos? How does Logos effect the material world?

Scientists think that over time evolution brought about complex beings but this isn't true. They are simply much too complex to happen by accident.

If you try to form something as complex as a heart there are too many things that have to be precisely perfect in order for it to work: blood viscosity, cellular capability and size, volume, temperature control, artery and vein sizing and strength, energy requirements, placement in the body, and each of these alone has hundreds of specifcs that had to be within strict tolerances at the same time otherwise the heart would not work.

Could you name one scientist who believes in the theory that complex organs like the heart come about “by accident”? I think you will find that most respectable biologists believe that these organs came about through a process of natural selection.

When will people get it through their heads that “Goddidit” and “it was an accident” are not the only two possibilities?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I have two questions, but I think those questions may generate debate. First, for those that consider themselves Creationists, or somewhere in the Intelligent Design camp, by what means did God actually create all the different species? For instance, was it out of nothing? Or did he have some formative energy to begin with? Was there one moment when a cow didn't exist, and then suddenly one appeared, kind of like magic? Or did God use the body of a different species to give birth to the first cow?

The second question is for those who believe that evolution occurred completely as a natural process, without any input from an Intelligent Designer. How would the existence of an eternal human spirit affect the theory of evolution? Please try to put aside for now, if you can, whether such a thing could be proved or not.

To let you know where I stand, I am a strong believer in God, and that he created all things with a purpose. However, I consider it to be a strong possibility that there is lineal connection between species, in which case evolution would describe the outward appearance of a process being guided by God.

Well I believe God created everything and therefore created evolution so I am in the middle of you questions!

 

[doppelganger]

Do you really understand that? If you do could you help me? I haven’t got a clue. How did the “Creator” bring order out of chaos? How does Logos effect the material world?

Yes, I understand it, though I admit it's intentionally obtuse. The "Creator" of course, is me, or you (or anyone who uses language). I order the world of my experience into usable categories and models by acquiring knowledge.

The Logos affects the material world by defining things and motion I experience, through relationship to other things and motion. The Logos affects the material world because it creates and defines the material world I perceive (including "the material world" ).

 

[Super Universe]

Can I back my statements up? Sure, but if you don't believe me why would you believe them? You want scientific proof? The proof is in the pudding, you guys just won't accept it.

Evolution and the universe is like rolling a dice a thousand times and getting sixes every time.

Accident isn't the most correct word but natural selection isn't the dominant method that creates a complex biologic. It's already in the DNA to form complex beings. We are not the result of a million fortunate mutations all in a precise order but that does not mean that mutations don't affect us. They certainly do but they are a minor effect on evolution not a major or dominant one.

I wonder why the amoeba doesn't have a human heart? Your scientists would say "because if it did it wouldn't survive and pass on it's genes" but the truth is it can't. No mutation is going to cause it to happen unless the mutation itself is larger than the DNA structure of the amoeba. This is virtually impossible, the odds against it are so incredible that it doesn't happen.

This is what your scientists refuse to accept. They think that a one in a million chance is enough for humans to form. It's not. Humans forming was never in doubt.

Life is not a series of fortunate accidents one after another, all in a perfect order. Neither is the universe. At some point, you're all going to have to realize this.

 

[Zeno]

Evolution and the universe is like rolling a dice a thousand times and getting sixes every time.

I suggest you give this a read. (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html)

Accident isn't the most correct word but natural selection isn't the dominant method that creates a complex biologic. It's already in the DNA to form complex beings. We are not the result of a million fortunate mutations all in a precise order but that does not mean that mutations don't affect us. They certainly do but they are a minor effect on evolution not a major or dominant one.

You lose sight of your numbers here. We're talking more than trillions of mutations each year, over a period of billions of years. Try picturing in your head the magnitude of a billion years. Also, nothing about evolution or abiogenesis requires this "precise order" you speak of.

No mutation is going to cause it to happen unless the mutation itself is larger than the DNA structure of the amoeba. This is virtually impossible, the odds against it are so incredible that it doesn't happen.

Evolution doesn't even come close to claiming that this is possible. Again you lose sight of the numbers we are dealing with. I agree with you that life is improbable, however, I think you need to further your understanding of genetics and evolution to make these claims.

This is what your scientists refuse to accept.

Are you claiming to have a greater understanding of DNA and probability than Watson and Crick themselves? I realize you may think that scientists are blinded by all their "facts," but I don't think you can ignore the opinions of vast numbers of scientists and Nobel Prize Winners.

 

[Super Universe]

I suggest you give this a read. (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html)



You lose sight of your numbers here. We're talking more than trillions of mutations each year, over a period of billions of years. Try picturing in your head the magnitude of a billion years. Also, nothing about evolution or abiogenesis requires this "precise order" you speak of.



Evolution doesn't even come close to claiming that this is possible. Again you lose sight of the numbers we are dealing with. I agree with you that life is improbable, however, I think you need to further your understanding of genetics and evolution to make these claims.



Are you claiming to have a greater understanding of DNA and probability than Watson and Crick themselves? I realize you may think that scientists are blinded by all their "facts," but I don't think you can ignore the opinions of vast numbers of scientists and Nobel Prize Winners.

Ah yes, I suppose I should read on about how smart your scientists are. What great things they've invented! But then, they never invented a thing. They assembled things and they've disassembled things. They realized the way some things work. That's it.

After billions of years they just recently figured out what causes a storm to form so they could quit blaming God for them. Yes, they're quite an impressive bunch.

I love the term human race because you think you are so advanced. In your Star Trek shows you always have the best technology but you still don't even know how the sun works, or how the planet works, or how gravity works, and more importantly, you barely even have a basic theory of God energy (string theory).

The truth is this, if there was such a thing as a race of species, you lost it long before you were even invented.

Nothing about evolution requires a precise order? Hmm, so a human heart in an amoeba isn't out of order? What about an elephant liver in an amoeba, or shark's teeth?

There is an order, things evolve in ever increasing complexity, not because of favorable mutations but because of DNA activation. This activation causes the DNA of a species to evolve very suddenly.

Evolution doesn't claim human hearts evolving in amoeba's to be possible? Uh, that's why I said it's virtually impossible. I don't need to further my understanding, you need to read slower.

Scientists aren't blinded by their facts. They're blinded by their selfishness and they're ego. They think they are the highest intelligence in the universe but they still have yet to truly create a single thing.

 

[Zeno]

Nothing about evolution requires a precise order? Hmm, so a human heart in an amoeba isn't out of order? What about an elephant liver in an amoeba, or shark's teeth?

You claimed that mutations always happen in the precise order - they do not. Do you know how many species have gone extinct? Have you heard of genetic disorders? We have a full understanding of how DNA encodes information, there's no secret "human code" inherent in it.

There is an order, things evolve in ever increasing complexity, not because of favorable mutations but because of DNA activation. This activation causes the DNA of a species to evolve very suddenly.

If things evolve in ever increasing complexity due to this mysterious "DNA activation," then why do bacteria and amoebas still exist? Why is bacteria the most common organism on the planet if its DNA has all the information on how to be human?

Uh, that's why I said it's virtually impossible.

So you agree with evolution? You claimed that no single mutation could ever lead to a complex organ, I was just pointing out that evolution agrees with you.

Ah yes, I suppose I should read on about how smart your scientists are.

I wasn't asking you to read some "selfish" science papers. I was only asking that you develop some basic understand of probability and statistics.

To fight these "evil scientists," I think you need to know what they are saying in the first place.

 

[fantome profane]

Yes, I understand it, though I admit it's intentionally obtuse. The "Creator" of course, is me, or you (or anyone who uses language). I order the world of my experience into usable categories and models by acquiring knowledge.

The Logos affects the material world by defining things and motion I experience, through relationship to other things and motion. The Logos affects the material world because it creates and defines the material world I perceive (including "the material world" ).

Thank you, that makes a little more sense.

 

[James Humphreys]

I am not quite sure what you mean by eternal human spirit. I know you asked us to put aside the idea of whether such a thing can be proved or not, but unfortunately I think that it is central to the question. If you are talking about something “supernatural” that cannot be detected through natural means, then it is something that has no effect on natural material. If it had an effect on natural material it would be detectable. So since it is not detectable, it has no effect on natural material, and therefore it cannot have had any effect on a natural process.

If you are talking about the human spirit in the sense of human desires, aspirations, hopes and dreams, then that is another matter. I don’t think that the human spirit in this sense has had an impact on human evolution in the past, but it may have an impact in the future. The human spirit has already had a drastic effect on the evolution of other species, in many cases the human spirit has guided them right to extinction. Who can say what wonders the human spirit has in store of us in the future?

It is true that the term "human spirit" is a little ambiguous. The sense I am using it in is similar to that depicted in the movie "Ghosts", an essence of ourselves, containing our personality and retaining our memories, that continues on after the death of our physical bodies.

In such a case, where our spirit cohabits with our physical body while we are alive, there would have to be some kind of connection and mutual influence between the spiritual and the physical. So what scientists measure as a physical phenomenon might in that case actually have a spiritual origin (which would probably not be obvious).

A couple of those who posted replies just stated point blank their belief that the spirit doesn't exist, but what I asked is "what if it does". Would the existence of the spirit threaten the theory of evolution, viewed as a purely natural process? In my opinion if the spirit does exist, (which is the conviction of many, and the personal experience of some) then the origin of that spirit would have be explained, and I think the conventional theory of evolution would hard pressed to do that.

 

[Super Universe]

You claimed that mutations always happen in the precise order - they do not. Do you know how many species have gone extinct? Have you heard of genetic disorders? We have a full understanding of how DNA encodes information, there's no secret "human code" inherent in it.



If things evolve in ever increasing complexity due to this mysterious "DNA activation," then why do bacteria and amoebas still exist? Why is bacteria the most common organism on the planet if its DNA has all the information on how to be human?



So you agree with evolution? You claimed that no single mutation could ever lead to a complex organ, I was just pointing out that evolution agrees with you.



I wasn't asking you to read some "selfish" science papers. I was only asking that you develop some basic understand of probability and statistics.

To fight these "evil scientists," I think you need to know what they are saying in the first place.

Many species have gone extinct. I've certainly heard of genetic disorders. Your scientists give all the credit for your evolution to these fortunate mutations but the truth of the matter is that these mutations are unfortunate. They are bad. They cause species irreparable harm.

You do NOT have a full understanding of how DNA encodes information. You call most of it junk. Keep worshipping your scientists as they scratch their heads in confusion at the wonder of the universe.

The bacteria and amoeba's that exist are what they are supposed to be. They do not have all the information to be human but their DNA does have the potential. They are not supposed to evolve into humans because that has already happened. The DNA of an amoeba will not likely be activated again but that's up to God, not I.

Evolution is at work, it's a default control for species. It will allow one species to prosper from environmental changes while another becomes extinct but it is a minor control not a major one. It's like cruise control on your vehicle. DNA activation is the main reason for evolution, and it comes from God.

The scientists aren't evil, they are just full of themselves.

 

[doppelganger]

Thank you, that makes a little more sense.

If we praise and worship the "Creator," we are just praising and worshiping ourselves. :areyoucra