Only atheists

[psychoslice]

So your problem is just his name huh?

Knowing here in dire situation is just a deep sense not logical one that is in minds

No, I don't believe in calling the Source a name, that would be ignorant of me, and there is certainly no logic in all this.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sir
When we say everything needs a cause we mean those which are dependable and are in need.

You mean people?

Then how would that connect in any way to the matter of whether there is a God?

It's very strange why some western philosophers had this bug in their minds about causality!!!
Contemplate about this verse

الفرقان
الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذْ وَلَدًا وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ شَرِيكٌ فِي الْمُلْكِ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَقَدَّرَهُ تَقْدِيرًا
He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and who has not taken a son and has not had a partner in dominion and has created each thing and determined it with [precise] determination. (2)

God says has created each thing
Does it mean he created himself too???
When he wasn't created where was he to create himself????

Besides we don't use causality alone to prove the existence of a necessary existent

I am sorry, but all of this sounds sort of random.

Please notice we use infinite regress and causality and some other logical arguments to prove that there must be an independent existent that isn't created . He himself is real existent we are shadows.

Am I clear????

Unfortunately not. But that is alright really.

Neither of us should spend so much time in such fruitless, unimportant matters, truth be told.

 

[psychoslice]

If you want atheist to believe in your ideas, then please present good ideas, not some stories from the dark past, or some so called prophet that supposedly heard God speak to him, that is dead evidence, and you wonder why there is such thing as atheist, if there was truth, then there wouldn't be any atheist.

 

[Ouroboros]

Hi
العنكبوت
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ
And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him (65)


Have u ever had this experience in your life? Both positive and negative answers are appreciated.

Note: ship here means dire situation


Thanks in advance

I'm not a true atheist anymore, but since I've had experiences both as a believer and as an atheist where I was put in danger, I thought there was something to be said.

When I was Christian, many, many years ago, I was driving in a snow storm and almost lost control of the car, I shouted "Jesus!"

But a few years ago, when I was an atheist, my son and I was out biking, and one of the cleats malfunctioned and I lost balance. Fell straight into traffic. A car managed to stop about 5 inches from my head. My grownup son got so freaked out that he had nightmares for weeks after. What did I do? I didn't call for Jesus or God when it happened. I actually was at perfect peace to go at that time (and still am).

Nowadays, I consider myself something different than atheist, and just last year or the year before that, I fell from a ladder. Same thing in this situation, I didn't call for God or anything. I could see the ground coming in slow motion and I was thinking, "this is going to hurt."

I also have a story about how my family got hurt, which resulted in one of my sons becoming paraplegic and having over 50 surgeries, while I was Christian and asked God to protect them and heal them. That was a tough 10 years of my life when neither God, Allah, Buddha, or Santa Claus listen. It was a big part of why I realized God isn't what we tend to think he/she/it is.

 

[viole]

I don't think I have ever met (and I have certainly not been) such a person.

What you describe does not seem to be an atheist at all, in any case.

By my understanding of what Muslims and the Qur'an usually describe as "associating others with God" it seems to be a verse that disapproves of polytheism, not atheism.

There is a saying about atheists in foxholes that may be closer to what you mean to ask. And it is very much a fantasy spread by people who do not understand atheism or do not want to extend due respect to it.

Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers

Atheists In Foxholes - Freedom From Religion Foundation

There are no atheists in foxholes - Wikipedia

Well, I actually like to think that there are only atheists in foxholes. Or at least people with doubt that like to play it safe.

You probably get farther in life with a prayer and a shelter, than with a prayer alone.

Ciao

- viole

 

[interminable]

I think religion has a way of poisoning you, and then offering a cure.

Most of this fear of death actually comes from religion. I used to be very afraid of death and lack of meaning when I was religious.

It only went away when I let go of it. If you aren't as afraid of death, you don't need a mythological story to make you feel better.

So u mean atheists don't fear from death at all ?

I think fear of death has nothing to do with religion because children even animals have this sense .they don't wanna die. can u say animals or children are affected by religion?

And more importantly I'm a religious man but I don't fear from death because I didn't lose anything

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@interminable - have you had a chance to charge your cell phone?

What does causality have to do with God?

 

[interminable]

No different. The former, you're making it personal, the motivation and solution comes from you (or an outside source, if one likes); and the latter, the motive and the solution is by chance.

One is meditative and with intent, the other hoping but nothing personal.

That's not true.
We pray and worship him not because he can answer or he can save us in dire situation rather because he deserved to be worshiped. He is god and we live by his leave. Besides praying is kind of remembrance of god and the ultimate level of mysticism is to remember god every moments like a lover that always like to remember the beloved.

 

[interminable]

@interminable - have you had a chance to charge your cell phone?

Of course

As I said to Luis causality itself can't prove that the first cause is god. Even causality itself can't prove that for example first cause is unlimited or ....

There are some logical arguments there and u need to gather them and finally the existence of God can be proven

But some atheists here when I explain causality they just say it's not logical or I don't wanna waste my time and other pretexts
I hoped when I bring some logical reasons like causality the person that doesn't accept it at least reject my claim by logical arguments too not by offering some pretexts

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's not true.
We pray and worship him not because he can answer or he can save us in dire situation rather because he deserved to be worshiped. He is god and we live by his leave. Besides praying is kind of remembrance of god and the ultimate level of mysticism is to remember god every moments like a lover that always like to remember the beloved.

I understand. I don't understand how what I said was not true in this case, though.

Yours is motivation and with intent. Whether you ask for something or are in reflection is the choice of the believer; but, it's not difference. If you need help from god, would you ask him for help? If not, why?

If god did not answer your reply if you asked, would you say it's god's fault, your fault, or it would it god's choice (we call it 'leave it by chance' to some people others call it 'its the will of god; his decision we can understand)?

 

[Animore]

Something that at least is accepted by monotheists is that God is immaterial so how could he show himself to u?

Not show himself in the literal sense, obviously, like getting up face to face to me. Perhaps a seizure or too, with some flashing images of the cross or something. All I know is that if He was this omnipotent figure, he could take a bit of time out of His busy schedule to find proof that would suit me.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I don't think you need causality to believe in God. I'm like the opposite of that.
#I know the name; or His name as Jesus or Jebus depending on who you talk too. (it's because of their accent.)
Some things don't fit in the word so like wise it was the word crucified.
Causality only might stand as a lack of evidence and an over exaggeration to make someone believe.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Two years later maybe I will understand what u wrote

Please my English isn't good enough

Sorry

Oh I read your other posts . I can't understand at all

It has many layers, and lower parallels, but it's true.
Poor Benghazi,
4 dead in Benghazi.
Example:
Some guy pointed out a prostitution problem.(FYI any). He said it would be better if we had colonization.. The other guy shook his head kindly and said no...
open a small world...would you like some Asian, white, black, Latin, Indian, Olive, jewish, supposedly muslim now too. Which one would you like?
It's not that it solves all your problems but more than likely for starts; it's that you basically have a pimp problem.
That was the end of the conversation.
2nd Example: remember that cool movie about a man almost written out of history as a criminal (because of the "motherland"), Braveheart and William Wallace. Proof that he was not a criminal, Robert the Bruce,a noble, which they typically are without true sides as many were, fought for the English but after what happened to William,( quartered and castrated by the angry penis god, longshanks). Robert the Bruce then truly fought for Scottish independence because of the Penis God (FYI it can be a va-jj) and his gay son. But he too gets labeled now as a "criminal".
Remember Scottish devolution referendum 11 September 1997.
4 years before 911
They fought a civil war first.
They fought for independence second.
700 years later they still didn't get independence.
Fact one: We
Fight for independence first.
Fact two:
Imperialists up the stuff that lead to civil crap or mess which we still fought for freedom.
Fact three:
We fought the penis vajj God.
*** Generally; man and women together...We want independence and man fights against the penis gods or va jay jay gods that bring in things that cause civil problems.

 

[columbus]

But some atheists here when I explain causality they just say it's not logical or I don't wanna waste my time and other pretexts
I hoped when I bring some logical reasons like causality the person that doesn't accept it at least reject my claim by logical arguments too not by offering some pretexts

I think a big part of the problem you are having in this thread is this. Most everybody who responds to you has had this discussion before, many many times. And usually with people who have better English.
What you are proposing is basically The Kalam cosmological argument. It's roots are in ancient Islamic thought. It was made into a book by William Lane Craig back in the 70's.
Here is a Wikipedia link
Kalam cosmological argument - Wikipedia

None of this is new to many of us. Unless you bring something different what you will mainly get is arguments we have already made enough times to be uninterested.
It is not you, it's the arguments.
Tom

 

[interminable]

I understand. I don't understand how what I said was not true in this case, though.

Yours is motivation and with intent. Whether you ask for something or are in reflection is the choice of the believer; but, it's not difference. If you need help from god, would you ask him for help? If not, why?

If god did not answer your reply if you asked, would you say it's god's fault, your fault, or it would it god's choice (we call it 'leave it by chance' to some people others call it 'its the will of god; his decision we can understand)?

In Shia traditions we have that God will answer every prayers but all of them can't be answered in this world
Even we have: when a beliver goes to heaven and see what god has given him instead of answering his prayers in this world the beliver wishes none of his prayers would be answered in the world

So some of them are answered
Some will remove some problems
Some will be answered in hereafter

Besides if everybody prays I wanna be a king for 100 years can god answer???

This world has many limitations

 

[interminable]

Not show himself in the literal sense, obviously, like getting up face to face to me. Perhaps a seizure or too, with some flashing images of the cross or something. All I know is that if He was this omnipotent figure, he could take a bit of time out of His busy schedule to find proof that would suit me.

This happens just for prophets not everyone.
Hope u understand that the purpose of creation of human was to test him that's why God has given them the ability to choose

In your situation could u deny his existence and everybody like u excepts god to do that right? So was any need to send prophets?? Books???

 

[interminable]

I don't think you need causality to believe in God. I'm like the opposite of that.
#I know the name; or His name as Jesus or Jebus depending on who you talk too. (it's because of their accent.)
Some things don't fit in the word so like wise it was the word crucified.
Causality only might stand as a lack of evidence and an over exaggeration to make someone believe.

Lack of evidence??

Can u show me u are a wise person!? How?

 

[Animore]

This happens just for prophets not everyone.
Hope u understand that the purpose of creation of human was to test him that's why God has given them the ability to choose

In your situation could u deny his existence and everybody like u excepts god to do that right? So was any need to send prophets?? Books???

"This happens to prophets not everyone."

I don't see how prophets are supposed to be proof of ordinary people. A bit of smooth talk and anyone can persuade people of any religion.

"...that's why God has given them the ability to choose."

Sure choosing between something that has no evidence, and something that is the most plausible because of the lack of evidence but could get me to hell. That seems fair.

I do not understand the question.

 

[interminable]

I think a big part of the problem you are having in this thread is this. Most everybody who responds to you has had this discussion before, many many times. And usually with people who have better English.
What you are proposing is basically The Kalam cosmological argument. It's roots are in ancient Islamic thought. It was made into a book by William Lane Craig back in the 70's.
Here is a Wikipedia link
Kalam cosmological argument - Wikipedia

None of this is new to many of us. Unless you bring something different what you will mainly get is arguments we have already made enough times to be uninterested.
It is not you, it's the arguments.
Tom

When I started this topic I didn't want to involve logic here
But please answer this question

We have 2 runners each one of them decides not to run until the other runs
When they are supposed to run???

 

[interminable]

"This happens to prophets not everyone."

I don't see how prophets are supposed to be proof of ordinary people. A bit of smooth talk and anyone can persuade people of any religion.

"...that's why God has given them the ability to choose."

Sure choosing between something that has no evidence, and something that is the most plausible because of the lack of evidence but could get me to hell. That seems fair.

I do not understand the question.

Don't overlook miracles