Only Unhappy People Need Religion?

[Nakosis]

Maybe they are. Some atheists are very dogmatic and religious and tribalistic so they of course worry about things like that.

That's kind of why I'm asking.
I think Karl Marx's view was that if everyone's needs were met, people would no longer need religion. Although I think he thought this would happen naturally not via enforcement.

Kind of the individual saying "I'm happy, I'm content. All of my material needs are being met. I no longer need religion as a crutch to keep me happy/hopeful."

I really think he saw religion as a crutch. That once they were "healed" by communism I suppose, they would no longer need the crutch.

So either Chinese communism isn't fulfilling the promise of communism or Marx got it wrong.

At the same-time other atheists have said religion is a crutch. Myself, as an atheist, I don't really have an argument against that view. I'm letting other people make that argument because maybe there is something me and other atheists are missing.

 

[halbhh]

Why did you seek better? Did you feel something was still missing?

If so, what did you feel was missing or what do you think is missing in the lives of the non-religious?

You can definitely have a temporary time when it feels like you got all you want, as you ascend this pyramid below.

Even at the first level, when it was not yet achieved, and then is achieved, it's such a great moment, and you can feel you are there -- heaven, nirvana -- it's all you wanted:

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

And the same for each stage: achieving it feels like bliss and completion, for a time, quite a while often.

For instance, today in America, you can find people acting very satisfied with their position, stuck at stage 4, in public. But if they are lucky, they will continue to seek more, in time, and in their later years go higher.

 

[firedragon]

I think Karl Marx's view was that if everyone's needs were met, people would no longer need religion. Although I think he thought this would happen naturally not via enforcement.

What are the studies that backs this up?

Thats the most important thing to think of.

 

[stvdv]

Did you feel that I was belittling you?

No, I was not responding to you. It is belittling, it's fact not my feeling.

I do consider needing religion to be a disadvantage, but isn't that the case with needing anything?

NO. And it's Atheists imposing here that all "Theists are in need of Religion". They claim to know this, and the funny part is they know nothing about individuals, why they do things. But fine with me, I know it's false way of thinking,so doesn't bother me

You may find this offensive as well, but it is offered as a neutral analogy, not an insult. I used to be a smoker. Before that, I never needed or wanted a cigarette until I began experimenting with them, but afterward, I did. I might even say that smoking gave me comfort as it eased the withdrawing from nicotine. But is that really comfort? Compare it to the nonsmoker who has that comfort at all times, so much so that he doesn't even notice an issue there like the smoker does every twenty minutes.

Again wrong. It is offensive, that's fact. Does not bother me though. Just non sensical comparison, which does not apply to me, so if it makes you happy, go on with it and enjoy yourself

What should I make of the smoker and the religious person who tells me that they get comfort from something that cannot comfort me because I have no discomfort there to begin with.

I don't know what you should make of it. I make nothing of it. Not my concern

Religion, like cigarettes, creates the need for itself. If you grow up going to church for forty years or smoking for forty years, you'll have great difficulty pulling away. If you grow up with neither, well, neither has much to offer you.

Non sense again. Totally not logical

Just your opinion, you're free to share it, as your opinion. Does not apply to me, and I see it different. Also meaning, I'm totally senang you think this way; if this makes you happy, good for you, continue with it, I would say. Be happy is a good thing

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Or can you be happy without religion?

If not your happiness, then how is your religious belief benefiting you?

The happiness you speak of, is only material happiness.
It is derived from sense gratification and is based on things external.
This kind of happiness can be intense but is short-lived. And when it is gone, there comes pain.
But there is another kind of happiness which is eternal ... It is spiritual happiness.
I say eternal because we will retain that happiness even after death, since death is not the end.

You must understand we are not flesh. The bodies are just vessels.
We are Spirit / Consciousness. And the nature of this Spirit / Consciousness is eternal bliss.

In other words, when we attain enlightenment / moksha / nirvana, through deep meditation, by subduing the mind (by subduing our thoughts, emotions, desires, ego etc.) we then get a taste of our true eternal blissful nature.
At such a stage we enter into a trance like state (Samadhi). This is enlightenment while living in the body.
The Monists and Yogis don't give importance to a personal God.
They attain enlightenment / Nirvana / Moksha by subduing their mind in deep meditation.
That's what i have learned in the past three years and i'm still learning more on Monism.

But on the other hand, the Dualists (like the Muslims, Jews and Christians) believe in a personal God.
They too get to spend their time with Jesus, Allah, Yahweh or Vishnu, after their death, i.e. if they remain faithful to their Personal God all through out their earthly lives.
So, both the Monists and the Dualists live in complete divine happiness which is thousand times greater than material happiness.

So to answer your original question whether only unhappy people need religion or not, the answer to that question is Yes ... Once you're done with material enjoyments, you will be left with pain and misery. Only then you will seek THAT which is above flesh.

 

[Nakosis]

What are the studies that backs this up?
Thats the most important thing to think of.

Studies, I'm not sure that it would be considered a study. However, there have been examples of primitive tribes with no concept of God. No need in their society for a God.

Here is an interesting report if you have the time of the Pirahã, a tribe in the Amazon with no God and what happened when they tried to teach them about God.
The Pirahã: People Who Define Happiness Without God: Daniel Everett - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Otherwise, it I suspect is very hard to isolate modern society from God and do a study.

 

[firedragon]

Thats the most important thing to think of.

Studies, I'm not sure that it would be considered a study. However, there have been examples of primitive tribes with no concept of God. No need in their society for a God.

Here is an interesting report if you have the time of the Pirahã, a tribe in the Amazon with no God and what happened when they tried to teach them about God.
The Pirahã: People Who Define Happiness Without God: Daniel Everett - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Otherwise, it I suspect is very hard to isolate modern society from God and do a study.[/QUOTE]

What is your hypothesis based on this? Please explain.

 

[halbhh]

Studies, I'm not sure that it would be considered a study. However, there have been examples of primitive tribes with no concept of God. No need in their society for a God.

Here is an interesting report if you have the time of the Pirahã, a tribe in the Amazon with no God and what happened when they tried to teach them about God.
The Pirahã: People Who Define Happiness Without God: Daniel Everett - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Otherwise, it I suspect is very hard to isolate modern society from God and do a study.

It's thought by more than a few that the urge to seek God results in a lot of very diverse concrete instances though.

e.g.--

And including such as seeing Nature as God, and so on. The sun, crocodiles, herons, whatever. That many fall short of a more transcendent realization of what they seek doesn't change the basic impulse that motivated the seeking.

 

[Nakosis]

What is your hypothesis based on this? Please explain.

I think the simple hypothesis has been fairly obvious.

A healthy, happy society that finds all its needs to be met has no need of religion.

The example of this was provided by the Pirahã tribe the ideal communist society.

 

[firedragon]

I think the simple hypothesis has been fairly obvious.

A healthy, happy society that finds all its needs to be met has no need of religion.

The example of this was provided by the Pirahã tribe the ideal communist society.

So Piraha dont have any belief in God? You mean the Christian God.

But they believe in divinity. And that's according to the same author you quoted in your so called "study". Just because they dont believe in the God of the Bible, does not mean they never had any belief in a God. The problem seems to be that you do not understand the concept of God. You are only relying on the God of the Bible that you know of.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Or can you be happy without religion?

Very happy atheist over here.

Obviously I have my ups and downs, as does anyone.
But I have no need for superstitious beliefs to be happy.

 

[Nakosis]

The happiness you speak of, is only material happiness.
It is derived from sense gratification and is based on things external.
This kind of happiness can be intense but is short-lived. And when it is gone, there comes pain.
But there is another kind of happiness which is eternal ... It is spiritual happiness.
I say eternal because we will retain that happiness even after death, since death is not the end.

You must understand we are not flesh. The bodies are just vessels.
We are Spirit / Consciousness. And the nature of this Spirit / Consciousness is eternal bliss.

In other words, when we attain enlightenment / moksha / nirvana, through deep meditation, by subduing the mind (by subduing our thoughts, emotions, desires, ego etc.) we then get a taste of our true eternal blissful nature.
At such a stage we enter into a trance like state (Samadhi). This is enlightenment while living in the body.
The Monists and Yogis don't give importance to a personal God.
They attain enlightenment / Nirvana / Moksha by subduing their mind in deep meditation.
That's what i have learned in the past three years and i'm still learning more on Monism.

But on the other hand, the Dualists (like the Muslims, Jews and Christians) believe in a personal God.
They too get to spend their time with Jesus, Allah, Yahweh or Vishnu, after their death, i.e. if they remain faithful to their Personal God all through out their earthly lives.
So, both the Monists and the Dualists live in complete divine happiness which is thousand times greater than material happiness.

So to answer your original question whether only unhappy people need religion or not, the answer to that question is Yes ... Once you're done with material enjoyments, you will be left with pain and misery. Only then you will seek THAT which is above flesh.

This is not to defend atheism but I'll tell you my view.

Feelings are the result of biochemical release triggered by events. There is combination of chemicals which cause you to feel happy. A combination which make you feel angry. A combination which make you feel content.

Just like taking some drugs make you feel a certain way. Religion has evolved as a way to trigger these feelings. A feeling of peace, contentment, happiness.

You can learn to trigger these releases. For example if you start laughing, even if you are sad, your body will trigger the release of the chemical which make you feel happy. The result being you will find yourself happy. What religion does, the rituals, the prayer, the worship is to trigger these chemical releases we desire. They really don't need to do anything except create the feeling we are looking for.

For myself, I find feelings can be triggered by the appropriate thoughts. However I agree, material acquirement is an attempt to trigger these feelings and misses more often than it hits.

 

[Colt]

So you don't believe there is an afterlife?

Not for those who reject salvation no.

 

[Nakosis]

Not for those who reject salvation no.

Ok, that's your belief, fair enough.
Some believe everyone gets eternal life. How do you know you are right and they are wrong?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Or can you be happy without religion?

If not your happiness, then how is your religious belief benefiting you?

Dear Nakosis,

Not that my faith does not make me happy, but the wording in your OP seems curious to me. I’m not too sure that the purpose of religion is to “benefit” in an individual way...

Humbly
Hermit

 

[Nakosis]

Dear Nakosis,

Not that my faith does not make me happy, but the wording in your OP seems curious to me. I’m not too sure that the purpose of religion is to “benefit” in an individual way...

Humbly
Hermit

Ok, what do you see as the purpose of religion?

In a sense I see one purpose of religions is to provide controls on the actions of many. The fear of God is used for enforcement.
Another purpose is people desire a peace of mind. I see religion providing that with the concept of an afterlife.

These I see as benefits to the individual.

 

[nPeace]

I think it is weird that I feel happy most of the time. Don't know why sometimes but feel content with life. Maybe I'm an aberration.

I'm taking notes.
You say, "you feel happy most of the time".
Is that true happiness? What is true happiness to you?
If for example someone is beating you senseless, would you be happy?
Yet people are happy though being beaten senseless; though undergoing severe trial and adversity. What makes them happy?
Matthew 5:10-12 ; Luke 6:22, 23 ; Acts 5:40-42

Notice the expressions (joy and holy spirit ;overjoyed in the holy spirit) in these scriptures... Acts 13:52 ; Luke 10:21
Matthew 5:12 . . .Rejoice and be overjoyed. . .
Joy is a product of God's holy spirit. Galatians 5:22

Perhaps you are thinking such persons are experiencing an aberration.
Can you actually relate to being overjoyed? That's not a rhetorical question. It's a question for you.

 

[nPeace]

That's kind of why I'm asking.
I think Karl Marx's view was that if everyone's needs were met, people would no longer need religion. Although I think he thought this would happen naturally not via enforcement.

Kind of the individual saying "I'm happy, I'm content. All of my material needs are being met. I no longer need religion as a crutch to keep me happy/hopeful."

I really think he saw religion as a crutch. That once they were "healed" by communism I suppose, they would no longer need the crutch.

So either Chinese communism isn't fulfilling the promise of communism or Marx got it wrong.

At the same-time other atheists have said religion is a crutch. Myself, as an atheist, I don't really have an argument against that view. I'm letting other people make that argument because maybe there is something me and other atheists are missing.

I'm wondering, is sex a crutch for many? Wealth? Partying? Good health? A tolerant mate, or family?
If all those were not a part of ones life, would they be unhappy? Would you?

 

[Nakosis]

I'm taking notes.
You say, "you feel happy most of the time".
Is that true happiness? What is true happiness to you?
If for example someone is beating you senseless, would you be happy?
Yet people are happy though being beaten senseless; though undergoing severe trial and adversity. What makes them happy?
Matthew 5:10-12 ; Luke 6:22, 23 ; Acts 5:40-42

Notice the expressions (joy and holy spirit ;overjoyed in the holy spirit) in these scriptures... Acts 13:52 ; Luke 10:21
Matthew 5:12 . . .Rejoice and be overjoyed. . .
Joy is a product of God's holy spirit. Galatians 5:22

Perhaps you are thinking such persons are experiencing an aberration.
Can you actually relate to being overjoyed? That's not a rhetorical question. It's a question for you.

Are you happy all of the time? That might be an aberration.

I'm just being honest. I feel I am happy more than I should be given the circumstances I find myself in.

Happy while being beat on? Well I'm no fan of pain. Though I hear some people are. Pain triggers the chemical response they are looking for I suppose.

IMO there are times when anger and fear are appropriate. So to be happy all of the time would not be appropriate.

I guess the extreme example would the self-immolating monks. The desire for the feelings triggered by their beliefs are greater than their fear of pain.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm wondering, is sex a crutch for many? Wealth? Partying? Good health? A tolerant mate, or family?
If all those were not a part of ones life, would they be unhappy? Would you?

I'm sure It is. Entertainment especially. Would they be unhappy, sure, they might even turn to religion.
Kind of the point. If you can't get it one way you find another to trigger the desired feelings.