Oppression of progress

[outhouse]

Examples?

before galileo was punished they murdered bruno for the same thoughts.

thats off memory, it would not be hard to find many more.

How many of those movements have actually succeeded?

really? we have been fighting nutjobs over creation in schools for a long time. The battle is almost won as the last loophole was closed last month. It should have been closed a thousand years ago

religion ignorance has such a strangle hold on us allthough it is law not to teach creation many of the teachers do not press the issue and mock the idea in their teachings. science is not really being taught in many places.

you cannot deny the damage to society through religious ignorance, you cannot.

There are others that Wikipedia lists, and I'm sure there's others that it missed.

These make your statement false.

wow man was able to invent something! look we know there were small inventions, there had to be. ALL That you mentioned in a thousand year period is pitifull and it would still show a slight incline in the chart if any at best.

you cannot deny religion held back brilliant minds whos work went against the belief of the 3000 year old jewish book stolen from pagan myths.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

think about it

Love it, LOL

 

[ellenjanuary]

before galileo was punished they murdered bruno for the same thoughts.

thats off memory, it would not be hard to find many more.



really? we have been fighting nutjobs over creation in schools for a long time. The battle is almost won as the last loophole was closed last month. It should have been closed a thousand years ago

religion ignorance has such a strangle hold on us allthough it is law not to teach creation many of the teachers do not press the issue and mock the idea in their teachings. science is not really being taught in many places.

you cannot deny the damage to society through religious ignorance, you cannot.



wow man was able to invent something! look we know there were small inventions, there had to be. ALL That you mentioned in a thousand year period is pitifull and it would still show a slight incline in the chart if any at best.

you cannot deny religion held back brilliant minds whos work went against the belief of the 3000 year old jewish book stolen from pagan myths.

Outhouse, did you take those aspirins? You have been YEC'n it too much, you need decontamination.

Monotheism is also a social structure useful for turning cities into nations. If it wasn't Jesus it would have been... Hey, Zeus. (couldn't resist.) Think in terms of evolution. It wasn't that we were "held back" in the Middle Ages, it is more that there was no impetuous to move forward. Agriculture was technology enough, the land seemed infinite and resource plentiful; and being the monkeys we are, there were plenty of neighbors to subjugate. When we were killing each other regularly, we didn't take the time to realize we didn't need to die so soon. We didn't realize sanitation, or contamination; it was looking to god (a unified god) where we began to get a glimpse of beyond the self.

It is not that I don't agree; there has been detriment with religion. but the scale against which such could be measured did not arrive until modern communication technology. The newspaper is less than two hundred years old, the television not even a century; the greatest of all, these here netz, are half my age.

And one thing must occur before the age of religion can safely pass. We must craft a secular moral standard. We must create an ethical paradigm; and we must stand by that paradigm. Otherwise, darkness shall come again.

These are moral questions. Should scientific endeavor be allowed to harvest aborted fetuses for stem-cell research? Of course it should, but the lack of a secular moral standard means that the general populace is going to believe that fetuses are being aborted for harvest. The lack of a secular moral standard is exactly the reason the commercial sector has been given license to patent genes.

Religion must pass; we have the why, we need to implement the how.

 

[outhouse]

Outhouse, did you take those aspirins? You have been YEC'n it too much, you need decontamination.

LOL true.

wish I knew the how

 

[Riverwolf]

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

give a read to "end of the golden age" and "decline"

I think that my statement "Islam abandoned science in order to embrace religion" is not a bad observation.

A quick glance that seemed to indicate that the decline of the Islamic golden age seemed to correspond to the European renaissance, when things started to pick up over here.

So, that graph remains wrong, because scientific advancement continued elsewhere.

It's sort of like saying we're in a stagnation now, because a good chunk of the world is in poverty and stagnation.

I already agreed that it is not conclusive.
and with some basic knowledge, I can make some estimations.
I know for a fact that advancement of technology has a tendancy to accelerate over time. because the more we discover, the easier it is to discover new things based on our previous discoveries.

you can make that observation by simply comparing the advancement of technology in the stonage with advancement of technology now.

so, with this I can say that a graph would use the mathematical model y=x^a
but your right, i cannot be sure of the value of "a". the graph I showed you may have some variance, if "a" was smaller, the graph would lean more to the right, If "a" was larger, the graph would lean more to the left.

but the basic shape of the graph can be confirmed. and the observation that the dark ages is inconsistent with the rest is also not to far fetched.

Yeah, it is, because advancement continued elsewhere.

and you are right, there are irregularities that you can't put in there, but when your looking at a basic trend, irregularities are of litle importance.

If there aren't very many. But there are tons of irregularities in this matter.

Im not even going to do research on that because it is of litle importance for the statement that im making.

are you going to tell me that there hasen't been anyone in history who was killed for not comforming with a religion?

Of course not, nor am I claiming that. Scientific and technological advancement was still possible within the confines of religious conformity.

I said "it is an illustration of how religion held back technology"
meaning, it is an example of how a religion held back technology.

If what I said is interpretated in the way you claim, than I apologise, I did not mean to do so.

It's all about choice of words.

 

[Riverwolf]

before galileo was punished they murdered bruno for the same thoughts.

thats off memory, it would not be hard to find many more.

Who's Bruno?

really? we have been fighting nutjobs over creation in schools for a long time. The battle is almost won as the last loophole was closed last month. It should have been closed a thousand years ago

religion ignorance has such a strangle hold on us allthough it is law not to teach creation many of the teachers do not press the issue and mock the idea in their teachings. science is not really being taught in many places.

you cannot deny the damage to society through religious ignorance, you cannot.

Well, I do. I say that the ignorance is due to other factors, not religion. Religious ignorance is the effect, not the cause.

wow man was able to invent something! look we know there were small inventions, there had to be. ALL That you mentioned in a thousand year period is pitifull and it would still show a slight incline in the chart if any at best.

I have to disagree. Those are pretty big.

you cannot deny religion held back brilliant minds whos work went against the belief of the 3000 year old jewish book stolen from pagan myths.

You've provided one, and didn't even specify. Not to mention the fact that, as I said above, advancement continued elsewhere. Therefore, I do deny it until you can prove otherwise.

 

[Riverwolf]

LOL true.

wish I knew the how

It's not hard. This forum is the only place I ever see YECs.

 

[micrurus]

Monotheism is also a social structure useful for turning cities into nations. If it wasn't Jesus it would have been... Hey, Zeus. (couldn't resist.) Think in terms of evolution. It wasn't that we were "held back" in the Middle Ages, it is more that there was no impetuous to move forward. Agriculture was technology enough, the land seemed infinite and resource plentiful; and being the monkeys we are, there were plenty of neighbors to subjugate. When we were killing each other regularly, we didn't take the time to realize we didn't need to die so soon. We didn't realize sanitation, or contamination; it was looking to god (a unified god) where we began to get a glimpse of beyond the self.

Its funny, you see, some one once asked me if I could give an example in history of something good that has happoned, that could not have happoned without religion. and that person claimed to have asked that question to many people for many years without once getting a descent answer.

and I gave that question serious thought. and over time, i came up with just one ( but atleast one) case whare this is true.

the funny thing is that if im not mistaken, you are giving that one example where religion actually did something good right here.

and I am verry interested, can you give another example, of a positive event in history that absolutly could not have happoned without religion. and I ask this question simply out of interest with no strings atatched.

and still, In the long term, i think that the price we payed was to much.

 

[outhouse]

It's not hard. This forum is the only place I ever see YECs.

I get them all the time in real life

just start talking to people about it and you will be amazed how they pop out of the woodwork

the look in there eyes is priceless when you corner them with reality

still not worth it and its sad really

 

[Riverwolf]

Its funny, you see, some one once asked me if I could give an example in history of something good that has happoned, that could not have happoned without religion. and that person claimed to have asked that question to many people for many years without once getting a descent answer.

and I gave that question serious thought. and over time, i came up with just one ( but atleast one) case whare this is true.

the funny thing is that if im not mistaken, you are giving that one example where religion actually did something good right here.

and I am verry interested, can you give another example, of a positive event in history that absolutly could not have happoned without religion. and I ask this question simply out of interest with no strings atatched.

and still, In the long term, i think that the price we payed was to much.

No sacrifice for simple comfort, or great sacrifice for progress?

Besides, it could also be argued that mythology (not necessarily believed literally) is what holds society (and it's certainly true with subcultures) together, because it helps illustrate morality and social issues, along with the natural benefit of conformity in liking the same things. For long, long times, mythologies were inseparable from religion. It's only recently that we've been given mythologies that accomplish their tasks (sort of, anyway), without being religious in nature.

 

[outhouse]

Who's Bruno?

bruno giordani, wiki the fellow, galileo wiki might even talk of him.

theres more. im not in the searching mood tonight or I would look for you

 

[Riverwolf]

just start talking to people about it and you will be amazed how they pop out of the woodwork

Wait, actually talk to random strangers on the street?

I'll pass.

 

[Riverwolf]

bruno giordani

Thanks. I'd done a quick google search of "bruno", but there's too much associated with that name.

 

[micrurus]

A quick glance that seemed to indicate that the decline of the Islamic golden age seemed to correspond to the European renaissance, when things started to pick up over here.

It is true, and we are lucky that one of the Islamic citys was in spain and that europe was therefore able to obtain alot of information before it dissapeared.

but to think that no knowledge is lost when something like that happons is just ignorant.

So, that graph remains wrong, because scientific advancement continued elsewhere.

same as above, It is ignorant to assume that no knowledge is lost when a culture collapses. If you read the wiki, you would know that christians played their part in their part in the collapse of the islamic golden age. and we ware extremely lucky to get some of the knowledge from the islamic world before the knowledge dissapeared.

and also, the Islamic empire was not as technologicly advanced as the roman empire. the loss of knowledge there was also noticible.

It's sort of like saying we're in a stagnation now, because a good chunk of the world is in poverty and stagnation.

I fail to see the resemblance.

Yeah, it is, because advancement continued elsewhere.

I already disputed this earlier in this post

If there aren't very many. But there are tons of irregularities in this matter.

OK, thats not an arguement. you can argue that EVERY scientific invention is an accident.

but let me compare this with something else (o god i hope that you believe in evolution).

Every genetic mutation is accidental, but you can stil make a mathematical model on the the average rate at which genetic mutations occur.

do you see the similarity?

Of course not, nor am I claiming that. Scientific and technological advancement was still possible within the confines of religious conformity.

yes but religion had severely slowed them down. do you know why europeans feel so strongly about the separation of church and state?

It's all about choice of words.

:jester5:

 

[Riverwolf]

It is true, and we are lucky that one of the Islamic citys was in spain and that europe was therefore able to obtain alot of information before it dissapeared.

but to think that no knowledge is lost when something like that happons is just ignorant.

same as above, It is ignorant to assume that no knowledge is lost when a culture collapses.

Excuse me? I never claimed that. I'm fully aware that one of the greatest tragedies of human knowledge was Alexander's burning of a great library.

If you read the wiki, you would know that christians played their part in their part in the collapse of the islamic golden age. and we ware extremely lucky to get some of the knowledge from the islamic world before the knowledge dissapeared.

and also, the Islamic empire was not as technologicly advanced as the roman empire. the loss of knowledge there was also noticible.

Could you provide some examples of that?

I fail to see the resemblance.

That is, that graph represents the European Dark Ages, but elsewhere in the world was anything but a Dark Age. Europe was basically comprised of third world countries at the time, while others enjoyed the status of first world.

OK, thats not an arguement. you can argue that EVERY scientific invention is an accident.

but let me compare this with something else (o god i hope that you believe in evolution).

Oh, you're going to compare technological progress to biological evolution? I've already done that.

And yes, I accept the fact of biological evolution. I don't need to "believe" in it. I may be religious, but I accept the authority of scientific inquiry, and make no absolute claims on the metaphysical.

Every genetic mutation is accidental, but you can stil make a mathematical model on the the average rate at which genetic mutations occur.

do you see the similarity?

Only if you consider such mutations constantly "improving" upon each other, when it looks more like they're adaptations to new situations.

yes but religion had severely slowed them down. do you know why europeans feel so strongly about the separation of church and state?

So good came of it, after all... then again religious freedom existed already in India.

:jester5:

For example, I made some poor choices of words earlier with: "No sacrifice for simple comfort, or great sacrifice for progress?" because that's a statement so vague that it can be taken either as a good thing, but most likely as a bad thing, besides the fact that looking at it now, it's not at all what I meant to convey.

Woops.

 

[Riverwolf]

Here's the thing: I don't deny that there was certainly problems during the European dark age. But what I dispute is that those problems were actually caused by religion. I say that they weren't. The wrong people got into power at the worst time, causing ignorance and illiteracy to reign, and corrupted leaders to steal from and oppress them. If religion were the inherent cause of this, then this should happen in all countries where there's religion.

 

[gnomon]

I'm not sure about this. It may be my subjective "oh no" reflex, but it appears to me that scientific literacy is increasingly abysmal and the widening divide between political and religious ideology in grassroots movements in several countries has been lately increasing the furor of anti-intellectualism. Whether it's an increase in numbers or simply an increase in the amount of press coverage/loudness I'm not sure, but there's something disturbing about the fact that a lot of public television is chock full of absolute pseudoscientific/pseudohistoric garbage.

I'm not sure how much a culture can be judged by what it watches, but something tells me that it doesn't bode well for the intellectual future of at least those who avidly watch the asinine tripe some channels are broadcasting.

History channel comes to mind with all the nescient "there used to exist advanced civilizations and/or aliens" shows, there's all those ridiculous "ghost hunter" shows, there's general "paranormal" shows -- the scientific literacy of mainstream television literally plummeted a hundred IQ points sometime in the last decade.

Edit: I know it's off topic, but the fact that "Jersey Shore" is watched and loved by any number of Homo sapiens literally makes me abhor being a member of the species.

In my off-topic opinion, "celebrity culture" is akin to sociocultural and intellectual suicide for a culture; especially when it would take a stadium full of said celebrities to match the IQ of a barn mouse.

Sadly true.

I remember the early to mid 90's watching excellent science documentary programs on The Learning Channel and Discovery Channel. Now one has gone over to nothing more than home improvement, weddings and gross medical stories while the other went on a reality kick. Although I do like Deadliest Catch.

But the highlight at the time was the airing of James Burke's history of technology and science from The Day the Universe Changed and Connections series. Only NOVA, which I have not had a chance to watch in a while, and some other programs on PBS have any merit. I won't pay for extended cable services or a satellite receiver in the slim hopes that National Geographic or the Science channel are airing any good programs.

The History Channel has gone to crap as well.

think about it

The Dark Ages were not an age of technological and scientific stagnation as popularly taught. As already mentioned were the efforts of Islamic scholars making advances in mathematics and astronomy. This was carried over into Europe leading to the Renaissance.

The obstacles to advancement in Europe are more directly related to the power vacuum left in the wake of a crumbling Roman Empire and the competition among numerous tribes to carve out kingdoms of their own. I think our modern expectations on what constitutes a technological achievement in a time when a clever new little tablet or telecommunications device comes out masks the importance of what technological achievements in agriculture actually meant. A horse collar and plow development were very important.

I would say that, relatively speaking, modern humans exhibit a greater level of technological and scientific ignorance than the average European from the end of Roman rule to the Renaissance. Who cares if an individual today can regurgitate facts picked up from Wikipedia. How many individuals today understand how the agricultural technology we use today works to the point where they could go farming today? Knowledge is very specialized today and the amount of technological differentiation in our economy leaves us all ignorant to some degree as to how it all works. And despite all the advances we have witnessed in the last 30 years since the onset of the digital age the level of belief in concepts such as chiropractic subluxation theory, homeopathy, law of attraction, John of God, faith healers, alien based religions (Scientology, Heaven's Gate, etc.), etc. rise and the rise of "alternative", or as I say "woo", concepts is rising among individuals with a higher level of education.

One of my favorites. From a 1978 Connections program:

[youtube][youtube]QNGOt1x5G5w[/youtube]
YouTube - James Burke : Connections, Episode 10, "Yesterday, Tomorrow and You", 5 of 5 (CC)[youtube]

James Burke got it right 30 years ago on the edge of the digital age in that we need to teach people how to think. How to ask the right questions. It didn't happen and it's not happening today.

 

[micrurus]

Excuse me? I never claimed that. I'm fully aware that one of the greatest tragedies of human knowledge was Alexander's burning of a great library.

but than you can just say "o its alright because an other part became the knowledge center"

If all humans died, the great apes would become the center of knowledge on this earth.

Could you provide some examples of that?

examples of what? the firs, the second or both claims?

That is, that graph represents the European Dark Ages, but elsewhere in the world was anything but a Dark Age. Europe was basically comprised of third world countries at the time, while others enjoyed the status of first world.

"It's sort of like saying we're in a stagnation now, because a good chunk of the world is in poverty and stagnation."

then I am not realy confortable using this analogy because a global economy has a Dynamic balance.(sorry if i sound picky but It plays in the advantage of your side of the arguement while it is not relative)

Oh, you're going to compare technological progress to biological evolution? I've already done that.


And yes, I accept the fact of biological evolution. I don't need to "believe" in it. I may be religious, but I accept the authority of scientific inquiry, and make no absolute claims on the metaphysical.

to start of, i didn't want to offend you with "(o god i hope that you believe in evolution)", im simply getting tired of using evolution in an arguement and than finding out that im talking to a YEC.

and yes, I am comparing evolution to the improvement of technology but ONLEY as an example that you can make a mathematical modal of events that could be labeld "accidental".

Only if you consider such mutations constantly "improving" upon each other, when it looks more like they're adaptations to new situations.

thats not the point that im making.

So good came of it, after all... then again religious freedom existed already in India.

true and i think that we have allot to learn from their history. (well except for the caste system)

For example, I made some poor choices of words earlier with: "No sacrifice for simple comfort, or great sacrifice for progress?" because that's a statement so vague that it can be taken either as a good thing, but most likely as a bad thing, besides the fact that looking at it now, it's not at all what I meant to convey.

Woops.

lol,
what can I say, I just suck at choosing words.

 

[Riverwolf]

but than you can just say "o its alright because an other part became the knowledge center"

If all humans died, the great apes would become the center of knowledge on this earth.

Not quite what I'm getting at.

What I'm trying to say is that just because one part of the world is scientifically and technologically behind, that doesn't automatically mean it's a scientifically and technologically bankrupt time for all of humanity; that would only be the case if it were world wide. During the European Dark Ages, this was not the case.

examples of what? the firs, the second or both claims?

Sorry. The second.

"It's sort of like saying we're in a stagnation now, because a good chunk of the world is in poverty and stagnation."

then I am not realy confortable using this analogy because a global economy has a Dynamic balance.(sorry if i sound picky but It plays in the advantage of your side of the arguement while it is not relative)

Excuse me?

to start of, i didn't want to offend you with "(o god i hope that you believe in evolution)", im simply getting tired of using evolution in an arguement and than finding out that im talking to a YEC.

Totally understandable. ^_^

and yes, I am comparing evolution to the improvement of technology but ONLEY as an example that you can make a mathematical modal of events that could be labeld "accidental".

Oh. Why?

true and i think that we have allot to learn from their history. (well except for the caste system)

Speaking as a Hindu, indeed. lol

 

[Riverwolf]

The Dark Ages were not an age of technological and scientific stagnation as popularly taught. As already mentioned were the efforts of Islamic scholars making advances in mathematics and astronomy. This was carried over into Europe leading to the Renaissance.

The obstacles to advancement in Europe are more directly related to the power vacuum left in the wake of a crumbling Roman Empire and the competition among numerous tribes to carve out kingdoms of their own. I think our modern expectations on what constitutes a technological achievement in a time when a clever new little tablet or telecommunications device comes out masks the importance of what technological achievements in agriculture actually meant. A horse collar and plow development were very important.

I would say that, relatively speaking, modern humans exhibit a greater level of technological and scientific ignorance than the average European from the end of Roman rule to the Renaissance. Who cares if an individual today can regurgitate facts picked up from Wikipedia. How many individuals today understand how the agricultural technology we use today works to the point where they could go farming today? Knowledge is very specialized today and the amount of technological differentiation in our economy leaves us all ignorant to some degree as to how it all works. And despite all the advances we have witnessed in the last 30 years since the onset of the digital age the level of belief in concepts such as chiropractic subluxation theory, homeopathy, law of attraction, John of God, faith healers, alien based religions (Scientology, Heaven's Gate, etc.), etc. rise and the rise of "alternative", or as I say "woo", concepts is rising among individuals with a higher level of education.

One of my favorites. From a 1978 Connections program:

[youtube][youtube]QNGOt1x5G5w[/youtube]
YouTube - James Burke : Connections, Episode 10, "Yesterday, Tomorrow and You", 5 of 5 (CC)[youtube]

James Burke got it right 30 years ago on the edge of the digital age in that we need to teach people how to think. How to ask the right questions. It didn't happen and it's not happening today.

Very excellent points, and I'm in full agreement that we need to start teaching people (not just children, but people in general) how to think instead of what to think.

...the funny thing is, it's internet comedy review shows that had to teach me how to think through critical analysis of things that I enjoy. Funny how effective starting with enjoyments can be.