Oppression of progress

[Riverwolf]

What political system has done more damage than the combined fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam?

All of them. I can't think of a political system that's innocent of damage.

Of course, they become worse if religion becomes a part of the system, but that would happen if ANY religion suddenly became state-mandated. But when that happens, the primary cause is still political agendas motivated by religious and moral absolutism.

 

[Riverwolf]

you can say what you want positive about religion but I have seen first hand the destruction murder and greed.

Wait, you were there when the Incans were destroyed?

(pst... other cultures that weren't Christian or Islamic did that to other great cultures, as well)

I have seen the history book and encyclopedias where brilliant minds were destroyed.

Which history books? Not all of them are worth much. And encyclopedias are so general and vague on the subjects that they're not much worth.

its one thing to talk about what you think you know from history and when you have long lost relatives murdered in the name of the cross.

But where in Pauline Christianity itself (that is, the New Testament) is this taught?

You're just repeating your argument. That doesn't make it correct. And once again, you're using the play on emotions fallacy. Don't you have some real arguments? That is, what all these genocides (which did happen, I'm not denying and I hate that I feel like I have to say that) mean and why do they mean that?

 

[Riverwolf]

are you asking me for examples or are you asking me what I think the reason is that makes religion hold back societys?

How about both?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Religious people (especially Christians) do you believe that it is God's will for the progress of mankind to be slowed and halted by religion, as it has been both through history (Galileo's house arrest, La Purga, Copernicus etc) and today (genetic engineering etc)? Just a thought.


I do not believe that the same God that has endowed us with reason and intellect intends for us to forego their use - Galileo

Um, I didn't go throught the whole thread, but has a Christian answered yet?

I'd have to say that nowhere in the Bible have a found a good reason for halting scientific progress. Perhaps the churches that get involved in politics and government think otherwise.

 

[outhouse]

what is being overlooked is that the whole bible was being used as a science book and a history book and a Law book. any who apposed this thinking or transalation at that time were brutally murdered.

its not the exact words in the bible but how they were perieved. We all know you can percieve it many ways.

 

[Troublemane]

its all proof of how uncivilized we really are, when they say our DNA is within %3 of a chimp...

I feel so sorry for those chimps...

 

[Riverwolf]

what is being overlooked is that the whole bible was being used as a science book and a history book and a Law book. any who apposed this thinking or transalation at that time were brutally murdered.

its not the exact words in the bible but how they were perieved. We all know you can percieve it many ways.

That's not being overlooked. I'm fully aware of that.

Any teaching can be perverted like that. Any religion, any philosophy, any set of ethical aphorisms.

Therefore, what's the point of bringing it up?

 

[outhouse]

Therefore, what's the point of bringing it up?

because allot of people were killed and brilliant ones first.

those would have been the ones that knew the bible was fiction and could not choke it down literal style.

in that time it paid to be stupid. probably for the first time in mankind stupidity genes were taking over to ensure survivability

all strictly in my opinion

 

[waitasec]

we were punished for seeking knowledge...
and what was the tower of babel about?
absolutely, these ancient writings from god have all the answers we need...
:sarcastic

 

[Twiglet04]

Um, I didn't go throught the whole thread, but has a Christian answered yet?

I'd have to say that nowhere in the Bible have a found a good reason for halting scientific progress. Perhaps the churches that get involved in politics and government think otherwise.

Perhaps not the Bible itself, but people who devoutly believe go to many lengths to stop things that could disprove their religion.

 

[micrurus]

How about both?

ok, we already agreed that religion and politics dont mix verry well.
all societys that have or had religion mixed with politics are my examples

And in my opinion, when religion becomes more and more important to a society it wil inevitably cross a certain line and mix with politics.

thats probably my main reason to think that religion holds back humanity.

 

[Riverwolf]

because allot of people were killed and brilliant ones first.

those would have been the ones that knew the bible was fiction and could not choke it down literal style.

in that time it paid to be stupid. probably for the first time in mankind stupidity genes were taking over to ensure survivability

all strictly in my opinion

And what facts do you have to back it up? Because from my understanding of history, it was witches and those accused of being witches who were killed more.

 

[Riverwolf]

ok, we already agreed that religion and politics dont mix verry well.
all societys that have or had religion mixed with politics are my examples

And in my opinion, when religion becomes more and more important to a society it wil inevitably cross a certain line and mix with politics.

thats probably my main reason to think that religion holds back humanity.

Unfortunately, it's not a very convincing one. After all, societies can make sure that their religions and politics stay separate deliberately, such as the separation of church and state. Most of the American government are Christians, but they do their best (with mixed success) to keep their religions out of their jobs.

 

[Riverwolf]

You know, I actually read something that brings up an interesting point. Copernicus was one of the earliest cosmologists who proposed a heliocentric universe. But he wasn't tried or killed. The book makes the statement that for a long time, the Church actually encouraged new knowledge, not suppressed it; it wasn't until the Protestant Reformation that they started going after any ideas that went against their own.

I still have to verify this, as that wasn't the subject of the book (the book is about the Big Bang theory). But if it's true, then the entire argument that the Catholic church deliberately suppressed knowledge during the Dark Ages would be destroyed.

 

[waitasec]

You know, I actually read something that brings up an interesting point. Copernicus was one of the earliest cosmologists who proposed a heliocentric universe. But he wasn't tried or killed. The book makes the statement that for a long time, the Church actually encouraged new knowledge, not suppressed it; it wasn't until the Protestant Reformation that they started going after any ideas that went against their own.

I still have to verify this, as that wasn't the subject of the book (the book is about the Big Bang theory). But if it's true, then the entire argument that the Catholic church deliberately suppressed knowledge during the Dark Ages would be destroyed.

you may also note that galileo was after copernicus...he was charged for heresy because he took copernicus idea to the next level..then we have newton

from wiki

Newton and Robert Boyle's mechanical philosophy was promoted by rationalist pamphleteers as a viable alternative to the pantheists and enthusiasts, and was accepted hesitantly by orthodox preachers as well as dissident preachers like the latitudinarians.[74] Thus, the clarity and simplicity of science was seen as a way to combat the emotional and metaphysical superlatives of both superstitious enthusiasm and the threat of atheism,[75] and, at the same time, the second wave of English deists used Newton's discoveries to demonstrate the possibility of a "Natural Religion".

my sarcastic response to that is;
we can't have a natural religion now, can we?
oh no, that would mean unifying humanity...we need religion to sustain division among the classes and races in the world

 

[micrurus]

Unfortunately, it's not a very convincing one. After all, societies can make sure that their religions and politics stay separate deliberately, such as the separation of church and state. Most of the American government are Christians, but they do their best (with mixed success) to keep their religions out of their jobs.

America is an exelent example.
one of the major prioritys of the founders of the US was to make sure that the mistakes made in europe would not repeat themselves in the states. and they made it clear in the constitution that church and state ware to remain seperate.

now, what are we seing today?
"in god we trust" on money.
george bush senior not even consedering atheists to be citicans.
ID trying to corrupt education.
prayers in classrooms.
"god bless america" at the end of every presidental speach.
Sarah Palin about Irak-"there is a plan and its gods plan"
Israel: a nation that would not exist without the support of the US. why does the US support it? because there has not been a single president that got elected without the support of the jewish lobby.
about elections, try getting a president elected that openly admits not to be christian.
Gearge bush, claiming to do gods will.


and these are not even all the examples that I can give you just off the top of my head.

EDIT

I dont call that a "mixed success" I call that the beginning of a failure. the onley reason that I don't think that this is going to escelate to much is because religion is decreasing in the states.

 

[Riverwolf]

you may also note that galileo was after copernicus...he was charged for heresy because he took copernicus idea to the next level.

Yes, I know. What's the point?

 

[Riverwolf]

America is an exelent example.
one of the major prioritys of the founders of the US was to make sure that the mistakes made in europe would not repeat themselves in the states. and they made it clear in the constitution that church and state ware to remain seperate.

now, what are we seing today?
"in god we trust" on money.
george bush senior not even consedering atheists to be citicans.
ID trying to corrupt education.
prayers in classrooms.
"god bless america" at the end of every presidental speach.
Sarah Palin about Irak-"there is a plan and its gods plan"
Israel: a nation that would not exist without the support of the US. why does the US support it? because there has not been a single president that got elected without the support of the jewish lobby.
about elections, try getting a president elected that openly admits not to be christian.
Gearge bush, claiming to do gods will.


and these are not even all the examples that I can give you just off the top of my head.

Like I said, mixed success. I would not consider the situation these days among those successes.

 

[micrurus]

Like I said, mixed success. I would not consider the situation these days among those successes.

"I dont call that a "mixed success" I call that the beginning of a failure. the onley reason that I don't think that this is going to escelate to much is because religion is decreasing in the states."

I made an edit to my previous post (probably while you ware replying)

 

[waitasec]

Yes, I know. What's the point?

if you knew that then you should also know....

By 1616 the attacks on the ideas of Copernicus had reached a head, and Galileo went to Rome to try to persuade the Catholic Church authorities not to ban Copernicus' ideas. In the end, Cardinal Bellarmine, acting on directives from the Inquisition, delivered him an order not to "hold or defend" the idea that the Earth moves and the Sun stands still at the centre.

-wiki