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Our Gods are not symbolic!
- Thread starter Vinayaka
- Start date
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram
I said purity not inocence , I am not talking about new age mumbo jumbo , ...if one accepts rebirth there is a stage up to which the child still maintains an awareness or consciousness that is not yet conditioned by its present Physical existance , therfore it has a purity in that it is un conditioned and is more open to other levels of existance .
as we become conditioned by this life we loose that awareness and become absorbed in our worldliness .
purity is that lack of conditioning , that lack of worldly attatchment , thus it is there in the begining and it is there again at the end when one tires of worldliness and renounces , ...this is a true sanyasin .
a Buddha, a fully enlightened being , does not ask for money , own jewelry , or encorage young ladies to comune with their guru ....please do not aply this mans thinking to the existance of Hindu Gods .
I said purity not inocence , I am not talking about new age mumbo jumbo , ...if one accepts rebirth there is a stage up to which the child still maintains an awareness or consciousness that is not yet conditioned by its present Physical existance , therfore it has a purity in that it is un conditioned and is more open to other levels of existance .
as we become conditioned by this life we loose that awareness and become absorbed in our worldliness .
purity is that lack of conditioning , that lack of worldly attatchment , thus it is there in the begining and it is there again at the end when one tires of worldliness and renounces , ...this is a true sanyasin .
a Buddha, a fully enlightened being , does not ask for money , own jewelry , or encorage young ladies to comune with their guru ....please do not aply this mans thinking to the existance of Hindu Gods .
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
He was certainly like no one else. People say that he was an avatara of Lord Shiva.
I think he explained it clearly. From what I have read he said "Ishwara is Brahman in pragmatic reality" (Vyavaharika Satya).
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Good that you said it. One needed a certificate that one is free from HIV to participate in the rituals. Were condoms not permitted? Just asking. Osho was not a Hindu. He was a jain, Nemi Chand Jain. He was as well a shame for Jainism and Mahavira.
ratikala
Istha gosthi
namaskaram Aupu ji
I dont like to disslike anyone , each is entitled to his own opinion , but not to missleed others , ...
[/quote Osho was not a Hindu. He was a jain, Nemi Chand Jain. He was as well a shame for Jainism and Mahavira.[/QUOTE]
I know , I did not want to say this as I do not regard him a Jian , he may have been born Jain but he does not behave as a jain so I do not consider him one .
sadly though he thought himself qualified to teach from Hindu Shastra and to take from Buddhism and Hinduism alike where it pleased him , ....better that people know that he is not a bonafide teacher of any faith .
I dont like to disslike anyone , each is entitled to his own opinion , but not to missleed others , ...
[/quote Osho was not a Hindu. He was a jain, Nemi Chand Jain. He was as well a shame for Jainism and Mahavira.[/QUOTE]
I know , I did not want to say this as I do not regard him a Jian , he may have been born Jain but he does not behave as a jain so I do not consider him one .
sadly though he thought himself qualified to teach from Hindu Shastra and to take from Buddhism and Hinduism alike where it pleased him , ....better that people know that he is not a bonafide teacher of any faith .
Red Zambala
Member
I was unwillingly browsing some Hindu community pages on Facebook and.....I'm catching myself again to the thought that some aspects of Hinduism can drive me crazy - that (many) people may think of their deities so much.....physically (?!) - in physical terms? - I mean all those things about playing with puppets ... washing...changing garments.....etc. whatever.... you know.....
- I can take almost everything - deities, mantras, prayers, philosophy, etc.....but..... Deity for me is Energy, Shakti, and it primarily dwells in my Heart..... All those figurines, etc. - I can take just symbolically.... yes, they are nice, so what, so are those figurines, so are all this world.....but only what is in my heart matters....in my perception.... But I would never really assign any significance other as childish playing to all that stuff....I remember it was the same many years ago......when I just started in Hinduism and was often watching in our center others doing all that washing..... Well, I am very flexible - I don't mind if they want to do it - they can do, but I personally never felt any inner call to join them or to do it on my own....
- I can take almost everything - deities, mantras, prayers, philosophy, etc.....but..... Deity for me is Energy, Shakti, and it primarily dwells in my Heart..... All those figurines, etc. - I can take just symbolically.... yes, they are nice, so what, so are those figurines, so are all this world.....but only what is in my heart matters....in my perception.... But I would never really assign any significance other as childish playing to all that stuff....I remember it was the same many years ago......when I just started in Hinduism and was often watching in our center others doing all that washing..... Well, I am very flexible - I don't mind if they want to do it - they can do, but I personally never felt any inner call to join them or to do it on my own....
Red Zambala
Member
?! From my own, of course!
If you would like to read about philosophies of Hinduism & Buddhism you can do so in my website redzambala.com
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Being flexible is a very good thing and IMHO a requirement in Hinduism. You have your way, they have their way, I have my way (being an atheist). Hinduism accepts all.
?! From my own, of course!
If you would like to read about philosophies of Hinduism & Buddhism you can do so in my website redzambala.com
Yes, that seems to be the way these days. Thank you for the information. As long as there is mutual respect within traditions all is fine. But to be honest, calling a Hindu established tradition as 'child's play' doesn't cut it for me. But of course you have the right to your opinion.
Red Zambala
Member
Vinayaka & Aupmanyav - what I told yesterday was NOT considered an established opinion or anything of the kind - it was meant a question - for some people who would be able to explain in detail the inner psychological logic of those people who are doing this......
I could add a lot, but at some moment.....
Yes, and...
1. It's clear people doesn't do anything what they cannot understand on their inner psychological level - no matter how is it with tradition or not....
2. My personal possible attitude doesn't matter here at all - I always go with / teach - what is the best option for people, for Humanitarian cause, for God's Realization, Mukti, and so on....
3. The inner understanding matters......it's like....I as a man have a hard time to find the inner logic what can be beautiful in Men - but yet - there are females and not only who prefer men to women....
I could add a lot, but at some moment.....
Yes, and...
1. It's clear people doesn't do anything what they cannot understand on their inner psychological level - no matter how is it with tradition or not....
2. My personal possible attitude doesn't matter here at all - I always go with / teach - what is the best option for people, for Humanitarian cause, for God's Realization, Mukti, and so on....
3. The inner understanding matters......it's like....I as a man have a hard time to find the inner logic what can be beautiful in Men - but yet - there are females and not only who prefer men to women....
Here's the mystical explanation for you then. Perhaps you've never had it explained.
The Gods exist in subtle bodies of ether. They exist in the third world, beyond time, form, and can come into the second world of the astral, as well as the first world of the physical, but not physically. In the sacred spaces called temples or shrine rooms that have been designated, or established mystically, the three worlds collide. Astral beings (deceases relatives, souls awaiting rebirth, or inner plane guides and helpers, called devas) from the second world come as well. What a puja does is call everyone, from all 3 levels to attend. So God and gods come, devas come, and if not done correctly other lower astral forces may join in as well.
The etheric bodies of the Gods may of may not be anthropomorpic, but may well be like swirling almost formless 'lumps' of energy.
All the chants, the music, the smell of flowers, the smell of incense ... all of this stuff can be seen from all 3 worlds. The prana from the food is present as well. So the entire ceremony is like a beckoning, and the murthy is the focal point, the door, so to speak, where the portal between worlds happens.
Now ... how do we know all this? Our vedic seers and mystics of the past have seen it. So while attending a puja and sitting in the deepest meditation, they would have seen the inner beings come and go, just as vividly as the people on the first world. Our mystics speak with inner guides all the time, as if they were right here in a physical body.
Out here in the ordinary consciousness of ego, confusion, self-righteousness we are hard pressed to even have a glimpse of such wonders. Some of us have had these glimpses, our takes on the world having changed forever.
So ... when one insults this tradition, one is also insulting our mystic forefathers, and anyone following a mystic tradition. Still we say it's all good. Each has his place in many layered worlds of consciousness.
The Gods exist in subtle bodies of ether. They exist in the third world, beyond time, form, and can come into the second world of the astral, as well as the first world of the physical, but not physically. In the sacred spaces called temples or shrine rooms that have been designated, or established mystically, the three worlds collide. Astral beings (deceases relatives, souls awaiting rebirth, or inner plane guides and helpers, called devas) from the second world come as well. What a puja does is call everyone, from all 3 levels to attend. So God and gods come, devas come, and if not done correctly other lower astral forces may join in as well.
The etheric bodies of the Gods may of may not be anthropomorpic, but may well be like swirling almost formless 'lumps' of energy.
All the chants, the music, the smell of flowers, the smell of incense ... all of this stuff can be seen from all 3 worlds. The prana from the food is present as well. So the entire ceremony is like a beckoning, and the murthy is the focal point, the door, so to speak, where the portal between worlds happens.
Now ... how do we know all this? Our vedic seers and mystics of the past have seen it. So while attending a puja and sitting in the deepest meditation, they would have seen the inner beings come and go, just as vividly as the people on the first world. Our mystics speak with inner guides all the time, as if they were right here in a physical body.
Out here in the ordinary consciousness of ego, confusion, self-righteousness we are hard pressed to even have a glimpse of such wonders. Some of us have had these glimpses, our takes on the world having changed forever.
So ... when one insults this tradition, one is also insulting our mystic forefathers, and anyone following a mystic tradition. Still we say it's all good. Each has his place in many layered worlds of consciousness.
Red Zambala
Member
Jay Subramuniyaswami!
- Yes it was he who has written what Vinayaka here explained, and of course we all know it...have heard it....
The question here is about deity washing / dressing etc. more particularly....
The other questions may arise - when we examine in detail our inner experience and compare it carefully with the concept explained in the afore given excerpt of H.H. Shivaya Subramuniyaswami...... but that could be a really long story or may be even life-long....
- Yes it was he who has written what Vinayaka here explained, and of course we all know it...have heard it....
The question here is about deity washing / dressing etc. more particularly....
The other questions may arise - when we examine in detail our inner experience and compare it carefully with the concept explained in the afore given excerpt of H.H. Shivaya Subramuniyaswami...... but that could be a really long story or may be even life-long....
Red Zambala
Member
As somebody (Poeticus ?!) told it today - what you just described is Karma kaņda only.....
I would like to think people are mostly concerned about Jņāna Kanda and Mukti and of saving all sentient beings from Samsara and accomplishing their Bodhisattva or just ordinary humanist vows...and for this reason choosing to practice a Religion as a means to perfection of their love, compassion and wisdom....
Maya3
Well-Known Member
I really like Vinayaka's explanation. It is beautiful.
As Vinayaka and others already know, I don't believe this, although possibly in "lumps of energy" like Vinayaka described. It is important to understand that people have different ideas and feelings about rituals and what they mean. Just because I don't personally believe it doesn't make it unnecessary or silly that it is important to someone else.
I go to two temples, one Smarta Ganesha temple and one at an Ashram that is not a typical Hindu temple.
I have felt incredible energy at the temple at the Ashram, explainable and wonderful things have happened there, more than once. The same thing, twice and only there.
At the Ganesha temple, I don't feel it. It is a beautiful temple, and I like to go there but I don't feel a spiritual connection there really. Maybe because I'm Advaitin and not Smarta or Bhakti, but it is an amazing temple and I know that others feel very differently about the feeling there.
It is all good, we are all different.
As for washing the deities, if you look at this symbolically, we are inviting a very, very honored guest to come to our temple. We do the same thing as we would if our friends stayed with us. We would give them food, let them shower, sleep over and if they forgot their clothes we would lend them ours.
Maya
As Vinayaka and others already know, I don't believe this, although possibly in "lumps of energy" like Vinayaka described. It is important to understand that people have different ideas and feelings about rituals and what they mean. Just because I don't personally believe it doesn't make it unnecessary or silly that it is important to someone else.
I go to two temples, one Smarta Ganesha temple and one at an Ashram that is not a typical Hindu temple.
I have felt incredible energy at the temple at the Ashram, explainable and wonderful things have happened there, more than once. The same thing, twice and only there.
At the Ganesha temple, I don't feel it. It is a beautiful temple, and I like to go there but I don't feel a spiritual connection there really. Maybe because I'm Advaitin and not Smarta or Bhakti, but it is an amazing temple and I know that others feel very differently about the feeling there.
It is all good, we are all different.
As for washing the deities, if you look at this symbolically, we are inviting a very, very honored guest to come to our temple. We do the same thing as we would if our friends stayed with us. We would give them food, let them shower, sleep over and if they forgot their clothes we would lend them ours.
Maya
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Red Zambala
Member
Yes, Maya, I'm hearing....
You see... I am always more concerned that they wouldn't wash off good energies accidentally ...... Questions like this I would welcome more......
The problem with Vinayaka's quote is - I don't see his own most direct experience and understanding there....
External Manifestations of love and care may be different for different people - some may be very talkative, others quiet and contemplative and so on..
You see... I am always more concerned that they wouldn't wash off good energies accidentally ...... Questions like this I would welcome more......
The problem with Vinayaka's quote is - I don't see his own most direct experience and understanding there....
External Manifestations of love and care may be different for different people - some may be very talkative, others quiet and contemplative and so on..
Red Zambala
Member
Aupmanyav,
I see you want an opinion about atheism....
1. Of course - there may be variations - what exactly do you mean with "Atheism" ..... in a wider sense - we can also argue - that for a Realized One there is 'No Theism, no Atheism..'
2. - But my general point would be - we should examine if Atheism is the shortest path to the Goal or not.....And analyze the consequences of preaching the Atheism to general folks .....
Considering those points - I wouldn't recommend Atheism (exceptions may be for Buddhism and Jain .... but still I have not good feeling about modern Western strictly atheistic Buddhists....) for general folks (and it means for me myself too)....although I can recommend a number of religious traditions with fruitful results.....
I see you want an opinion about atheism....
1. Of course - there may be variations - what exactly do you mean with "Atheism" ..... in a wider sense - we can also argue - that for a Realized One there is 'No Theism, no Atheism..'
2. - But my general point would be - we should examine if Atheism is the shortest path to the Goal or not.....And analyze the consequences of preaching the Atheism to general folks .....
Considering those points - I wouldn't recommend Atheism (exceptions may be for Buddhism and Jain .... but still I have not good feeling about modern Western strictly atheistic Buddhists....) for general folks (and it means for me myself too)....although I can recommend a number of religious traditions with fruitful results.....
The reason you don't hear my personal understanding or experiences there is that then it becomes an ego trip of undue portions, of who is the most mystical. Ask who's enlightened on this forum, and you'll see what I mean. So what? We (in my sampradaya) don't talk about it. Sacred is secret and secret is sacred.
Abhishekhams have been going on for a very long time, ant it is all part of the beckoning. I do an abhishekham at home daily. So it's all more of the same as I expressed above.
What this all boils down to is two things: experience and respect for differences. We are all products of our experience. An atheist doesn't believe in God because he's had no experience to show him otherwise. The opposite is also true. Similarly, with temple going. As Maya so eloquently put it, her experience is different, but she acknowledges that others really feel something at the temple she doesn't feel anything at. I've been to a few large South Indian Agamic temples, and yes there are people there who feel nothing ... it's all just gong through the motions. They go once out of some sort of family obligation, or curiosity, and then never return. However, there are also people who get so much out of it they can't wait to get back.
But generally neither wants to argue their point. Since you mentioned my Guru above, besides the mystical teachings, He was a consistent and strong supporter of Hindu Solidarity, the idea that we respect all legitimate traditions within the umbrella. Therefore, Aup and I get along, as do Maya and I, as do Maya and Aup. That's the Hindu way.
Abhishekhams have been going on for a very long time, ant it is all part of the beckoning. I do an abhishekham at home daily. So it's all more of the same as I expressed above.
What this all boils down to is two things: experience and respect for differences. We are all products of our experience. An atheist doesn't believe in God because he's had no experience to show him otherwise. The opposite is also true. Similarly, with temple going. As Maya so eloquently put it, her experience is different, but she acknowledges that others really feel something at the temple she doesn't feel anything at. I've been to a few large South Indian Agamic temples, and yes there are people there who feel nothing ... it's all just gong through the motions. They go once out of some sort of family obligation, or curiosity, and then never return. However, there are also people who get so much out of it they can't wait to get back.
But generally neither wants to argue their point. Since you mentioned my Guru above, besides the mystical teachings, He was a consistent and strong supporter of Hindu Solidarity, the idea that we respect all legitimate traditions within the umbrella. Therefore, Aup and I get along, as do Maya and I, as do Maya and Aup. That's the Hindu way.
Red Zambala
Member
Vinayaka,
Qualified personal experience and explanation should always be present.....
If there is any Ego, any Selfishness - then it's just not OK, then we have something to hide from others, "Secretness" manifests and replaces our natural Compassion for the well-being of all sentient beings and the option to openly and freely share with them what is good and what is not, what we should do and what not....
- That's how I have been taught.....That is what my Bodhisattva vow is for.....and I have 4 simple Noble Truths - that 1. There is suffering 2. There are causes for suffering 3. There is state without Suffering and 4 There is a Path ....
- And so I go - without hiding or making secrets but with sharing and teaching ..... and making the world better.... so I think and understand and see it....
Qualified personal experience and explanation should always be present.....
If there is any Ego, any Selfishness - then it's just not OK, then we have something to hide from others, "Secretness" manifests and replaces our natural Compassion for the well-being of all sentient beings and the option to openly and freely share with them what is good and what is not, what we should do and what not....
- That's how I have been taught.....That is what my Bodhisattva vow is for.....and I have 4 simple Noble Truths - that 1. There is suffering 2. There are causes for suffering 3. There is state without Suffering and 4 There is a Path ....
- And so I go - without hiding or making secrets but with sharing and teaching ..... and making the world better.... so I think and understand and see it....