Our values are superior to yours so...

[Aquitaine]

Well then a gay person who was raised Muslim in a Muslim country and wants gay rights in their country.

Aye, and I agree with you. However since there are a lot of devout Muslims who see Homosexuality as some sort of unnatural immoral disease, I don't expect Gays will be getting Human Rights let-alone Equal Rights any time soon.

This is one of the reasons why I think we should just let all Nations stick to their own laws and ways, rather than trying to change other people's cultures and values on an international level.

 

[Riverwolf]

I know some people from developing nations who take the term "native" as a pejorative. It leaves images of "primitive people". Most americans don't realize this.

Huh.

I always just thought of it as the term for "people who live there first."

Then again, I don't subscribe to the conception of "primitive" in terms of technological development.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Sahar;3276979]Speaking from a Muslim perspective, in many threads about Islam, I find a problem.
I am certain that many non Muslims don't like some Islamic concepts and rulings. And they believe it's oppressive...I don't know barbaric...whatever. And I am not sure that non Muslims realize that many Muslims have a trouble with some Western concepts (I said Western because they are dominating the world currently) and see them very negatively and with disgust as some see Islam.

Not only western cultural values, it seems Many Muslims have a problem with any culture that is not Muslim, Chinese and Indian culture comes to mind.

Now this is not my problem. My problem is not about having opposite views. But about the fact that because you think that your values are better than mine, we have to formulate the laws of our country according to yours. I can't help saying this is a typical imperialistic mindset. Almost all Muslim countries have suffered from Western imperialism and colonialism. And they have paid very expensive price for this and in their attempts to get their independence (of course they still do).

That is true, but not only Muslim countries had this problem, at one point 1/3 of the world was under colonial rule, I think we all know what price India paid to get its freedom, but looking further back into History India also paid a price when the Moguls invaded.

I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

There can be many other examples, wearing a bikini at Bondi beach would be against Islam but is the culture of the Australian people, why should they change their culture to accommodate minorities?

On the other hand, I don't think it's a right and I think it must be illegalized. The society I live in agrees on my view and it's manifested in the Law.
Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

The road goes both ways, i do agree that Muslim countries need to have their culture and religion, but so does the rest of the world need to uphold their respective cultural values, Muslim countries are not separate from the rest of the world, the common bond of humanity is universal, that is why when another human sees inhumane activity they will raise their voice does not matter whose culture or religion it is against.

Human rights cross borders and are universal. Sorry when we are having our differences on some values, surely this means they are not universal. Sure there are some universal values, but we disagree on others. Not because there are some people who consider them to be universal, they must be. Not because you think that yours are more superior to ours, it must mean we should be ruled by yours (except of course believing that you have more powers than others and this gives you the right to subdue them).

I think basic human values are universal, if there is a difference in values, it is quite easy to determine which value cross the line of just cultural trait or down right inhuman, like for example the birth based cast system in India it was a culture that is changing to conform to the basic human values of this world, cultures change and adopt.

Some Muslims may disagree with me. Certainly, there is a different non-Muslim perspective to all this.

There is always two sides to any story.

OHM TATH SATH

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Gharib;3277124] btw, I can have 4 wives if I wanted to. To be married I only need Islamic approval. I don't need the recognition of the government of Australia.

Dont take this personally Garib,

But this is one of the things that i don't like about Muslims, many i have met have no regard to Laws of a nation, they are willing to break Laws just to have their way. to me this is criminal, i Live in Australia in Sydney and in the western suburbs where the is a large Islamic presence, i went to school with Muslims, and this idea of disobeying the national Laws is rife in the minds of the young Muslim boys and men- they have no regard for the police or the justice system in this country. and to be honest i (being Indian Hindu) have never had any racial abuse (verbal or Physical) from any "White", Aussie, it has always been the Muslim Arabs who have bullied me and my friends at school and thrown racial verbal abuse at me and my family on the streets of western Sydney, most recently was two weeks ago when a bunch of Muslim boys started a chant, when we were at the same bus stop, they started with "there goes the Kufr, Kasamakle Aidifeek Kufr" to me, my wife and my 5 month year old son, after years of schooling with the Lebanese Muslim community i know exactly what these words mean.

Verbal abuse im used to by now, the sad thing is my son has to get used to it to as more and more Muslims come to this country.

 

[Me Myself]

Mst of us have moral standards that we WILL want to see be enforced on everyone.

Ironically, some want to enforce the non enforcing of moral standards contrary to theirs while saying we should not enforce moral standards.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yeah, I'm guilty of believing that values which embody human rights, civil liberties and equality are indeed superior to those that do not. And yes, when people are subjected to abuse, oppression and injustice within a society, I do desire for that society to change.

 

[atanu]

Morality is subjective.

You now want to force us to believe we shouldnt force you to believe anything

If in United States men were castrated at birth if the mother lost a coin flip, or people were stabbed to death if they said they believe in Allah, or they trotured children for entertainment and they did so across the country.

Would you want to "impose" on them to be different? Or would you want to speak for the victims, who dont tend to be able to speak for themselves?

If you didnt spoke against such horrible imoralities, are ou not an accomplice? But if you did, wouldnt you be imposing your values upon them?

We all have moral laws that we thk should be for everyone.

I am honestly more to look down on those who dont care.

The point made.

 

[atanu]

Aye, and I agree with you. However since there are a lot of devout Muslims who see Homosexuality as some sort of unnatural immoral disease, I don't expect Gays will be getting Human Rights let-alone Equal Rights any time soon.

This is one of the reasons why I think we should just let all Nations stick to their own laws and ways, rather than trying to change other people's cultures and values on an international level.

To change oneself first is the best thing to do, IMO.

 

[atanu]

Dont take this personally Garib,

But this is one of the things that i don't like about Muslims, many i have met have no regard to Laws of a nation, they are willing to break Laws just to have their way. to me this is criminal, i Live in Australia in Sydney and in the western suburbs where the is a large Islamic presence, i went to school with Muslims, and this idea of disobeying the national Laws is rife in the minds of the young Muslim boys and men- they have no regard for the police or the justice system in this country. and to be honest i (being Indian Hindu) have never had any racial abuse (verbal or Physical) from any "White", Aussie, it has always been the Muslim Arabs who have bullied me and my friends at school and thrown racial verbal abuse at me and my family on the streets of western Sydney, most recently was two weeks ago when a bunch of Muslim boys started a chant, when we were at the same bus stop, they started with "there goes the Kufr, Kasamakle Aidifeek Kufr" to me, my wife and my 5 month year old son, after years of schooling with the Lebanese Muslim community i know exactly what these words mean.

Verbal abuse im used to by now, the sad thing is my son has to get used to it to as more and more Muslims come to this country.

Thanks for bringing this up. I think these are not the real Muslim values. These abusive tendencies reflect poverty, lack of education, and jealousy. I am also sure that there is more to the picture than can be seen.

Also, the invaders/bandits that invaded India were invaders and bandits similar as the christian pirates who later came were pirates. Values of these bandits and pirates should not be confused with true Islam or teachings of Christ. I think that we often over-generalize.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

To me my values are pretty damn simple: If you do something and it can be reasonably expected that it may have an objectively negative, directly attributable effect on someone else - then you should take all reasonable efforts to obtain informed consent from those that will be effected; to mitigate any negative effects (including on the environment as well as the people) or if that is impossible, to provide redress proportionate to those effects.

I bring this up because it is relevant since it is based on effects on the environment and others; thus enforcing my own beliefs on others is indeed an objectively negative, directly attributable outcome. Thus to enforce it on others is self-contradictory. As for how others manage to claim right of (or dismiss the ideological opposition to) enforcing ethnocentric (or even egocentric) values on others seems difficult for me to grasp. I suppose it helps to have some degree of self-righteousness...

To me, the rules of a society are it's to arrive at, through whatever means it desires. Yes, that would extend to genocide, though I would note that such activities (such as preventing these targeted groups from leaving the area before such a determination is made or to deny them whatever mechanism exists by which to express their voice in the rule setting process) would violate my own ethical framework, thus in such a case I might perceive an ethical dilemma suggesting my need to act to secure the right of such a group to leave that society (not to control their society in any fashion, including providing them with democratic rights, but merely to allow them to exit the control of that society) were my attempt to secure such an exit thwarted I might well consider the need to do so forcibly against that society (given the international society has some legitimate authority to supersede national (for example) sovereignty in a case of an existential threat to a subgroup, in my opinion anyway).

 

[Me Myself]

To me my values are pretty damn simple: If you do something and it can be reasonably expected that it may have an objectively negative, directly attributable effect on someone else - then you should take all reasonable efforts to obtain informed consent from those that will be effected; to mitigate any negative effects (including on the environment as well as the people) or if that is impossible, to provide redress proportionate to those effects.

1- lets be real, thats not simple at all

2- Parents will ALWAYS fall drastically short on those. All parents. With the best of intenta and the maximum of focus.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It IS pretty damn simple
1. Try to think who may be negatively effected and try to get their permission
2. Try to prevent the impact of the negative effects and make up for them where you can

Parents? Nations? Community groups? Anyone. That is why I said try; and why I mentioned multiple ways with which to deal with it, by obtaining informed consent, preventing effects or reducing their impact, or looking to make up for what has occurred if you are unable to do so. If anything it is TOO flexible.

 

[Me Myself]

It IS pretty damn simple
1. Try to think who may be negatively effected and try to get their permission
2. Try to prevent the impact of the negative effects and make up for them where you can

Parents? Nations? Community groups? Anyone. That is why I said try; and why I mentioned multiple ways with which to deal with it, by obtaining informed consent, preventing effects or reducing their impact, or looking to make up for what has occurred if you are unable to do so. If anything it is TOO flexible.

No, I meant that determining who gets "negatively" affected is the terribly complicated part.

Childs cant give (reasonable) informed consent. Fetuses worst. Non human animals can only do so to a very limited extent.

What about those who tale offense by those taking offense?

Two gay gals kiss each other in the park (everyone kisses in the park here) others feel offended. The gay couple feels offended by those taking offense.


Of course I have my stance on all the areas I mentioned, but the intricansies are... Big and wide.

 

[Me Myself]

What about those who think a wrong thought can make you suffer eternally? Their views on who gets negatively affected by what are going to have serious colittions with those who dont share their fanatism.

Forget rape, my daughter will spend the rest of her life in hell?! why did she had to be an atheist/buddhist/hinduist/younameist, why couldnt she just be killed raped or horrible maimed!? WHY GAWD WHY?!?!

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Thanks for bringing this up. I think these are not the real Muslim values. These abusive tendencies reflect poverty, lack of education, and jealousy. I am also sure that there is more to the picture than can be seen.

Also, the invaders/bandits that invaded India were invaders and bandits similar as the christian pirates who later came were pirates. Values of these bandits and pirates should not be confused with true Islam or teachings of Christ. I think that we often over-generalize.

yes agree with that, this is just my personal experience with the Muslims in my community, i will point out that i have noticed these tenancies among the Lebanese Arab Muslim men to be more predominant, i think a lot of young Indian or Hindu people can relate to this especially those growing up in Majority Muslim areas.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

hahahaha I said simple, not necessarily EASY ^_^

Many of the terms i used are either outright subjective or else subject to interpretation in some manner.

Reasonable is a commonly used subjective term in legislation and regulation often to denote what the 'average' person in society would consider contextually appropriate. Likewise informed consent is a term that pops up in areas such as contract law so I haven't attempted to define them here since the description/definition is readily transferable.

On the other hand; Objectively negative, is a phrase that is subject to interpretation of what is considered 'negative' let alone objectively so. Directly attributable is also subject to the issue that one could attribute relationships between completely unrelated concepts. One could even argue what an 'effect' is or how to determine that one has occurred; likewise what it means to mitigate such effects or how might proportionate redress be identified.

 

[Aquitaine]

To change oneself first is the best thing to do, IMO.

Agreed: clean up your own house before you lecture others on cleaning theirs.

 

[WyattDerp]

What about those who think a wrong thought can make you suffer eternally? Their views on who gets negatively affected by what are going to have serious colittions with those who dont share their fanatism.

Forget rape, my daughter will spend the rest of her life in hell?! why did she had to be an atheist/buddhist/hinduist/younameist, why couldnt she just be killed raped or horrible maimed!? WHY GAWD WHY?!?!

Exactly. Some religions, taken seriously, amount to an attack to anything that is not them. Which explains all the projection and double standards and acting the victim I guess. Like, it's not even true that everyhwhere in "the west" prostitution is legal, or that where it's legal everybody condones it, it actually is true that things you are referring to are in the Quran. It doesn't say hell *has* to be eternal, but it sure doesn't offer any room for complaining should it be. Just reading the thing makes that clear.

Sure, if someone really believes that God will do that, no matter what any human does or says, then it really does amount to compassion to try and install Sharia law everyhwere, or what have you. I think it would be unfair to overlook that.

But it's still the compassion within a concentration camp, and one would have to at least acknowledge that many people in "the west" are dreaming bigger and more pure than that. Realize that, or keep painting yourself into a corner while reciting half-truths and preaching to the choir, it's up to you... and at any rate, you can't berate non-believers for not seeing a point in things that don't HAVE a point unless you have the respective beliefs.

 

[Gharib]

Dont take this personally Garib,

But this is one of the things that i don't like about Muslims, many i have met have no regard to Laws of a nation, they are willing to break Laws just to have their way. to me this is criminal, i Live in Australia in Sydney and in the western suburbs where the is a large Islamic presence, i went to school with Muslims, and this idea of disobeying the national Laws is rife in the minds of the young Muslim boys and men- they have no regard for the police or the justice system in this country. and to be honest i (being Indian Hindu) have never had any racial abuse (verbal or Physical) from any "White", Aussie, it has always been the Muslim Arabs who have bullied me and my friends at school and thrown racial verbal abuse at me and my family on the streets of western Sydney, most recently was two weeks ago when a bunch of Muslim boys started a chant, when we were at the same bus stop, they started with "there goes the Kufr, Kasamakle Aidifeek Kufr" to me, my wife and my 5 month year old son, after years of schooling with the Lebanese Muslim community i know exactly what these words mean.

Verbal abuse im used to by now, the sad thing is my son has to get used to it to as more and more Muslims come to this country.

I know how Lebanese Muslims are, I hate saying it but the truth is the truth, from what I have seen, Lebanese Muslims are the black sheep in the family when it comes to manners. They (not all) take Islam lightly and hardly act upon it. I probably shouldn't generalize but I am yet to meet a gentle and quiet Lebanese Muslim. They are very loud, have no regard for other people and it must always be their way.

But take into consideration that they are a people who are in constant war against the Israelis and within themselves they are forced to be like that whether they like it or not, daily life is all about survival and they continue in this way even when they live in another country. The kids on the other had do as they see.

 

[Me Myself]

Agreed: clean up your own house before you lecture others on cleaning theirs.

I think Jebus put it better:

Clean your eye so you can better see when helping your brother with his.