Our values are superior to yours so...

[ImmortalFlame]

No, we have hundreds of threads about these issues. The question of this thread if you can accept that there is some people out there who view things differently and how we can deal with the differences on the level of nations.

That depends on the difference. Differing laws, legal structures, political regimes and religious ideologies are all fine, it's only when any of these things begin to restrict the rights and freedoms in the eyes of other nations that action is usually taken.

After you showed why your position is more superior, reasonable, rational, etc., can you accept the fact that they don't seem reasonable or rational to me?

Not until you demonstrate what you think that is. If you cannot, then I can only assume that the basis of your morality is arbitrary, and that therefore my rationalized morality is superior. I understand perfectly that people have different opinions, but that doesn't mean they're all right or all fair.

So you are basically saying that my view doesn't matter, yours only matters because they seem reasonable to you and thus it should mean they are reasonable to everybody else and this gives you the right to force me to be ruled by it, correct?

Nope, that's not what I said at all. I already explained that if you have a different point of view, and can give it a better rational basis than my own, I will change my mind. I've changed my mind about many subjects before for the exact same reasons. I used to be terribly homophobic in my youth, now I believe all gay people deserve to be treated equally. Where have I said that my opinion is always superior? The point I've made, repeatedly, is that the superior view is the one that you can demonstrate makes the most rational sense in terms of doing the most good and preventing the most suffering.

What if I explained why my position is more reasonable but you didn't buy into it.

Why not try and find out before assuming that I would? If I dismiss your position without sufficient rational justification, then I'm being unreasonable, and the same applies to you.

The same way your view didn't convince me.

Then why not explain what you think is lacking in my rationalization in order to show me why it didn't convince you. This is how debate works, and it's how the vast majority of countries' legal and ethical systems work to come to a conclusion on these things.

Would you have a problem with forcing my view on a society that adopts your positions?

That depends entirely on what the view is and why we should adopt it. If I disagreed with your view, then obviously I'd have a problem with it, but that doesn't in itself make the action wrong. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

 

[jonman122]

Can the Muslims here make their position more clear? As in, what exactly are your views on homosexuality? would you condemn homosexuals to death? lashes? equality? or would you have sharia law implemented instead of western law? Views on adultery? On equality of women? I haven't actually seen anyone (other than "western cultured people") come clean about what it is they really believe is lawful. It's really difficult to debate when one side knows clearly the other sides position, but the other side just attempts to refute those positions instead of actually giving any clear and justified positions of their own.

 

[Alceste]

Actually, Canada has the weirdest laws. While prostitution is not illegal per se (the actual act of prostitution is legal), the illegality of it is only when prostitution is made public either through its transactions or solicitation.

I personally believe in the legalisation of prostitution. Why? Because a) it benefits the sex workers who can be protected by the law, b) prostitution is a reality everywhere, whether we like it or not.

Me too. If Vancouver prostitutes had had a red light district in the nineties, like Amsterdam, we wouldn't be digging up their bones on some creepy pig farm.

Here's the double standard upheld by the US: injustices happen in a Middle Eastern country, such as Iraq, and we go in full force, with guns blazing, and change their ideology to ours. The same thing happens in a nation like India, and we just stand by and watch. Why is one country worthy of us going to war over, and change their mindset to match ours, while the other one isn't? Why do we arbitrarily pick and choose which countries we will invade, and which we won't, even when circumstances for both are similar? If we were to be consistent, we'd have either sent our troops straight to China after Iraq, or, and this is the better option, just stayed out of the way, and let other countries handle their own affairs. This is the primary reason why the US is seen in such a bad light across the globe.

The business of Americans is business. I think you'll find that they don't care at all about your values once they're in charge of your economy.

Also, the republicans who created Bush's foreign policy were all in the military industrial complex. They felt the US should take advantage of their position as the world's only superpower to establish global dominance permanently. Their aim was to demonstrate the US could fight multiple wars at once (which they were supposed to win) to discourage any other country from challenging US hegemony. In addition to establishing permanent military installations in Afghanistan and Iraq, they were also trying to set up nukes all over Europe.

Basically they are loons. James Bond villains. What they aren't is human rights activists.

I would hope Islamic members here can tell the difference between the US government and westerners in general. Most Canadians were against the war. In every western country, there was a massive protest to try to prevent it. Canada and France were diplomatically bullied, then slandered for months in US propaganda for refusing to join the "coalition of the willing" to invade Iraq.
.

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Can the Muslims here make their position more clear? As in, what exactly are your views on homosexuality? would you condemn homosexuals to death? lashes? equality? or would you have sharia law implemented instead of western law? Views on adultery? On equality of women? I haven't actually seen anyone (other than "western cultured people") come clean about what it is they really believe is lawful. It's really difficult to debate when one side knows clearly the other sides position, but the other side just attempts to refute those positions instead of actually giving any clear and justified positions of their own.

I'd appreciate that clarification too. It's hard to tell whether my values are superior when I'm not sure which ones we're talking about. Like you, I think honour killings and death sentences for adultery are wrong, and that's a very superior moral view to the opposite position. But it sounds like the muslims in this thread also consider it wrong (most of them). If that's the case, who is superior to who?

 

[Koldo]

Granted, but as an American, I have to look at it from our point of view, either to accept it, or reject it.

And?

But at what cost? Like we say here in the states, freedom isn't free.

Egoism is egoism?

By psychological studies done in the US, researching the effects of fast food on the mind in the wake of our obesity crisis.

Please do present them to me. More specifically the part where it states that the fast food industry only exists because people get addicted to it.

There's no issue with exchanging goods and services, as long as such an exchange does not infringe on the beliefs of one or both of the parties involved.

How exactly are their beliefs being infringed?
Be specific.

 

[Koldo]

So when you know that your ''state'' isn't perfect and has much more ''errors'' then a other state who are you then to say or your values are ''superior'' or ''better'' ?

First, let me make it clear that nobody said the west makes much more ''errors'.
Those are your words.

Second, the majority of those errors are related to politicians not upholding these values in the first place.

Third, the ammount of ''errors'' has nothing to do with the values themselves.

Fourth, i don't think we can say those values are superior or better in an absolute manner. But speaking relative to homosexuals, prostitutes and non-muslims, they are, without a doubt, better.

 

[England my lionheart]

Speaking from a Muslim perspective, in many threads about Islam, I find a problem.
I am certain that many non Muslims don't like some Islamic concepts and rulings. And they believe it's oppressive...I don't know barbaric...whatever. And I am not sure that non Muslims realize that many Muslims have a trouble with some Western concepts (I said Western because they are dominating the world currently) and see them very negatively and with disgust as some see Islam.

I think what you are saying is understandable considering your beliefs,i don't think that imposing those beliefs on others who do not share them understandable at all,an example of why this doesn't work is your own country.

Now this is not my problem. My problem is not about having opposite views. But about the fact that because you think that your values are better than mine, we have to formulate the laws of our country according to yours. I can't help saying this is a typical imperialistic mindset. Almost all Muslim countries have suffered from Western imperialism and colonialism. And they have paid very expensive price for this and in their attempts to get their independence (of course they still do).

My country has caused immense suffering for hundreds of years throughout the world,i can't change that,thats history but there are a growing number of people all over the world who can influence the future that recognise there are some very basic Human rights that we should all have a claim to.

I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a right and I think it must be illegalized. The society I live in agrees on my view and it's manifested in the Law.

Prostitution is illegal here too,its one of the worlds oldest proffessions and there will always be buyers and sellers ,i think regardless of the legality of it the person who either has to turn to prostitution to survive or does so because its lucrative is still a Human being.

Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

I understand that,i think the problem with that though is apparent in your own country.

Human rights cross borders and are universal. Sorry when we are having our differences on some values, surely this means they are not universal. Sure there are some universal values, but we disagree on others. Not because there are some people who consider them to be universal, they must be. Not because you think that yours are more superior to ours, it must mean we should be ruled by yours (except of course believing that you have more powers than others and this gives you the right to subdue them).

Some Muslims may disagree with me. Certainly, there is a different non-Muslim perspective to all this.

Really i don't see the problem,if disagreeing with these universal values actually harms you in some way its understandable that you would reject them but i can't see how they are,all just my opinion of course.

 

[Riverwolf]

Your comment makes me wonder if Muslims have ever issued an apology for imposing Islam on Indonesia and other places.

I think every dominant culture has someone to apologize to right now.

The only ones who don't, AFAIK, are the Vikings who settled in Iceland.

 

[Riverwolf]

Actually lots of people were and are against the war in Iraq

Hello. ^_^

I consider that so-called "war" to be a far worse terrorist attack than 9/11. So, in that sense, the American military is guilty of the same crimes as Al-Qaeda.

 

[FearGod]

Hello. ^_^

I consider that so-called "war" to be a far worse terrorist attack than 9/11. So, in that sense, the American military is guilty of the same crimes as Al-Qaeda.

i don't think that he'll be brave enough to agree with you.

i think the problem that we only see from one eye,and we close the other one.

to say it in other words,some will see the Al-Qaeda to be right but they closed their eyes to see the innocents whom died and the families and their pains that caused from such awful terrorist attack the same thing for the war on Iraq,some will see it to be right and they closed their eyes to see it from the other side for the innocents and the pains among the Iraqi families.

The best who can open his 2 eyes and to see the truth and only the truth and not just to see one side and to erase the other from his mind.

 

[Iti oj]

The reason they went to Iraq and not India was because of Islam, plain and simple.

naw its an oil thing

 

[Assad91]

Lol. All these people mentioning sharia lawz yet ignorant of sharia law. Its like a Teaparty convention lol.

Also, Gharib, akhi, dont be so quick to generalize all white people. I get where you're coming from. But many white people, muslim and non muslim, disagree with the same things you disagree witg as well.

 

[Gharib]

Lol. All these people mentioning sharia lawz yet ignorant of sharia law. Its like a Teaparty convention lol.

Also, Gharib, akhi, dont be so quick to generalize all white people. I get where you're coming from. But many white people, muslim and non muslim, disagree with the same things you disagree witg as well.

I know, you're right. I am a white person. I just don't like it how some/most whites think they are superior due to skin colour.

A friend of mine grew up believing that his life was less valuable than that of a white man, all because of white mans 'superiority'.

 

[Alceste]

i don't think that he'll be brave enough to agree with you.

i think the problem that we only see from one eye,and we close the other one.

to say it in other words,some will see the Al-Qaeda to be right but they closed their eyes to see the innocents whom died and the families and their pains that caused from such awful terrorist attack the same thing for the war on Iraq,some will see it to be right and they closed their eyes to see it from the other side for the innocents and the pains among the Iraqi families.

The best who can open his 2 eyes and to see the truth and only the truth and not just to see one side and to erase the other from his mind.

Nobody here thinks the Iraq war was right. I protested, and my country did not join in the pillage. I personally think it was worse than 9-11, but some people distinguish between targeting civilians on purpose and indiscriminately bombing urban areas full of civilians in the hope of killing some fighters.

Many people in the West think Bush and Blair should be tried for crimes against humanity. Blair has to face protesters and critics everywhere he goes, and Bush was protested visiting the most conservative city in Canada.

 

[Alceste]

I know, you're right. I am a white person. I just don't like it how some/most whites think they are superior due to skin colour.

A friend of mine grew up believing that his life was less valuable than that of a white man, all because of white mans 'superiority'.

"some" people of every ethnicity, philosophy and religion think they are superior. White people are no better or worse than anyone else in that respect.

Would you believe that some people even think they are so superior that they alone will enjoy eternal bliss after death, while everyone else deserves to burn in hell forever? I know, sounds crazy, but it's true!

 

[Aquitaine]

Lol. All these people mentioning sharia lawz yet ignorant of sharia law. Its like a Teaparty convention lol.

Also, Gharib, akhi, dont be so quick to generalize all white people. I get where you're coming from. But many white people, muslim and non muslim, disagree with the same things you disagree witg as well.

The problem is though, that it can be difficult for others to understand what the "true" Sharia Law is, especially since it's based off interpretations of religion, which in itself is based off human interpretation.

There tends to be a lot of "No true Scotsman" going on in debates like this: "he committed this crime so therefor he is no a real Muslim" or "That place isn't a real Muslim country because there's no Khalifate" etc. Makes it difficult for others to understand.

 

[Gharib]

"some" people of every ethnicity, philosophy and religion think they are superior. White people are no better or worse than anyone else in that respect.

Would you believe that some people even think they are so superior that they alone will enjoy eternal bliss after death, while everyone else deserves to burn in hell forever? I know, sounds crazy, but it's true!

That is due to choice. I choose to believe in that and it doesn't matter on the skin colour. White superiority means 'I am' and 'you aren't'. There is no choice in that.

 

[gnomon]

Hello. ^_^

I consider that so-called "war" to be a far worse terrorist attack than 9/11. So, in that sense, the American military is guilty of the same crimes as Al-Qaeda.

This thread gets more ridiculous by the post.

 

[F0uad]

You didn't say anything about countries in that post. I was talking about Muslim values vs Western values, which is what the OP is about. I am not talking about specific countries.

Before i engage you with this, what are the ''Western values'' and what are the Islamic ''values'' according you moreover what do you know about Islam before even starting this?

I asked you to present some specific example of something that Western people decry about Muslim values but that they do themselves. I cannot address the things you said until you give me a specific answer to that question.

Hmm.. torture, rape, insect, genocides, assassinations, invasions want me to continue?

Your post implied that there was hypocrisy on part of Westerners in their assessment of Muslim values. I pointed out that the two main things about Muslim values that get our panties all in a bunch are the treatment of religion and women. I do not feel that Western society has the same sort of religious intolerance and view of woman that Muslim societies do, hence there is no hypocrisy.

When we are talking about value's we are not talking about laws but we are talking about what the society presents and i am not sure how you can make the suggestion that women are treated ''worse'' in Muslim countries then in the West or that intolerance is not a part of Western daily lives.

Like i said it sickens me that you belief your values are superior when your ''West'' has some of the highest criminal, rape, insect and other disturbing rates in the world.

 

[Assad91]

I know, you're right. I am a white person. I just don't like it how some/most whites think they are superior due to skin colour.

A friend of mine grew up believing that his life was less valuable than that of a white man, all because of white mans 'superiority'.

Sadly, there is deffinetly an entitlement we white people have. In many ways. Even this cultural imperialism is part of that.

 

[gnomon]

Hmm.. torture, rape, insect, genocides, assassinations, invasions want me to continue?

Yes. Those are words.