Our values are superior to yours so...

[Falvlun]

What i find is strange whenever things happen in the WEST and trust me more things happen in the WEST then in the east, people of the West just ignore it but when something happens in the East then we to suddenly interfere or condemn them.

Now the west thinks it has ''better'' values in theory but if we look at the practice of it i don't really see it being ''better'' in any way.

You'll have to be more specific than that.

There are two things about our perception of Muslim society that really get us riled up:
1) Lack of freedom of religion
2) The lack of freedom of women.

We have freedom of religion. No hypocrisy there.

We do not have a dresscode for women, we allow them to travel wherever they want, unchaperoned, we do not shoot them for wanting to go to school, we allow them to serve in public office, we do not stone them for adultury, we think that their testimony is equal to that of a man's, we do not force young girls to marry grown men, we allow them to drive, we allow them to work, we allow them to have a life outside of their house, we allow them to socialize with whomever they want. No hypocrisy there either.

 

[Koldo]

What i find is strange whenever things happen in the WEST and trust me more things happen in the WEST then in the east, people of the West just ignore it but when something happens in the East then we suddenly have to interfere or condemn them the double-standards here are just to noticeable.

Governments are being criticized every single day in western countries.
What else do you want? Where is the double standard?

 

[gnomon]

What i find is strange whenever things happen in the WEST and trust me more things happen in the WEST then in the east, people of the West just ignore it but when something happens in the East then we suddenly have to interfere or condemn them the double-standards here are just to noticeable. We in the East don't belief we are superior that's why we don't want to interfere with the Western problems nor do we point fingers because we know our own states are not perfect either.

Now the west thinks it has ''better'' values in theory but when looked at the practice of it, i don't really see it being ''better'' in any way.

I find that odd given the large population who live in Southeast Asia. About what...66% of the world's population?

Makes me certain more "things" happen there than in the West. Unless you move you point of reference to the Pacific.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

That's more of a disagreement with the war itself ( and taking over another country ), than anything else.

I'm against war pretty much all out. However, I do realize that it's something that happens, and there's pretty much nothing that can be done to stop it. However, this is one of the main ways that the influx of a foreign culture comes to another country.

Even at the cost of a bloodbath?

If needs be. All of the wars that Americans have been in, all of the lives lost, it's something that we're used to, it's ingrained into our minds that such a sacrifice is what brings about freedom, whether it actually does or not.

What?
So McDonald's stands in those countries because people are addicted to it, and not because people simply like the hamburgers there. Really?

First, there is an addiction factor to something like fast food. We see that every day in the states, our obesity problem is through the roof, and that's one of the primary factors. Liking something, and it being good for you are two separate things, and when you factor in a belief that such a thing is wrong/evil/unwholesome, it's something else altogether. And, as psychology has shown us, a person can be addicted to almost anything. Does a cokehead want coke before he has it? No, but after that first taste, he's hooked. It all starts somewhere.

It does matter, because otherwise, how is it being 'forced'?

It's being forced because it's been put in place where people don't want it, it doesn't matter how it got there. Their rights to live how they want are being taken away by a foreign culture.

 

[atanu]

You'll have to be more specific than that.

There are two things about our perception of Muslim society that really get us riled up:
1) Lack of freedom of religion
2) The lack of freedom of women.

We have freedom of religion. No hypocrisy there.

We do not have a dresscode for women, we allow them to travel wherever they want, unchaperoned, we do not shoot them for wanting to go to school, we allow them to serve in public office, we do not stone them for adultury, we think that their testimony is equal to that of a man's, we do not force young girls to marry grown men, we allow them to drive, we allow them to work, we allow them to have a life outside of their house, we allow them to socialize with whomever they want. No hypocrisy there either.

I see hypocrisy though. Most of what you have listed are practiced in a particular country, with which the west is friendly. Iraq was definitely not such a country.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But why should you have the right to shape your views into a constitution and a legal system in your country but I don't have the right to shape mine in the same way in my country?

Hi, Sahar. I really can't follow your arguments here. Who is trying to stop you from making your own constitution and legal system?

I will admit that the US prevented Osama and his loyalists from making their own constitution and legal system in Afghanistan. Are you arguing that we should have let him terrorize Afghanistan's people into accepting his constitution?

When has the US prevented a people from voting on their own constitution and legal system? Can you be specific?

 

[Falvlun]

I see hypocrisy though. Most of what you have listed are practiced in a particular country, with which the west is friendly. Iraq was definitely not such a country.

I wasn't talking about specific countries. I was talking about the West's perception of "Muslim values" that was brought up in the OP.

 

[F0uad]

You'll have to be more specific than that.

There are two things about our perception of Muslim society that really get us riled up:
1) Lack of freedom of religion
2) The lack of freedom of women.

We have freedom of religion. No hypocrisy there.

We do not have a dresscode for women, we allow them to travel wherever they want, unchaperoned, we do not shoot them for wanting to go to school, we allow them to serve in public office, we do not stone them for adultury, we think that their testimony is equal to that of a man's, we do not force young girls to marry grown men, we allow them to drive, we allow them to work, we allow them to have a life outside of their house, we allow them to socialize with whomever they want. No hypocrisy there either.

Well you are already assuming that those ''freedoms'' are superior instead of looking at the broader picture on how these laws are implemented in the ''Muslim'' countries and Western countries. See you just went on a rampage on what ''Muslim'' countries do not allow while the majority does allow the same things, then you totally miss presented the implantation's of those laws and finally you came to the conclusion to condemn these things.

Most of the things you pointed out are all accepted by the majority of the ''Muslim'' countries they are just somehow altered and even improved in some cases. Like i said your talking about theory but when take a closer look at the societies we clearly see that the West has the same amount of failures or even worse in the things you yourself mentioned.

Now instead of changing the whole subject and continue this go back to my original post and actually address the things i said.

 

[F0uad]

Governments are being criticized every single day in western countries.
What else do you want? Where is the double standard?

So when you know that your ''state'' isn't perfect and has much more ''errors'' then a other state who are you then to say or your values are ''superior'' or ''better'' ?

 

[F0uad]

Hi, Sahar. I really can't follow your arguments here. Who is trying to stop you from making your own constitution and legal system?

I will admit that the US prevented Osama and his loyalists from making their own constitution and legal system in Afghanistan. Are you arguing that we should have let him terrorize Afghanistan's people into accepting his constitution?

When has the US prevented a people from voting on their own constitution and legal system? Can you be specific?

The Taliban was ruling Afghanistan and not Osama or the Al-Quaida for several decades with the approval of America and some little finical support (VERY SMALL SUPPORT). The Taliban was actually opposing Bin-Laden until the foreign policy of America was targeting innocent Muslims around the globe and sanctioning the Taliban when they had no money to support there civilians in the end they had to take sides.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So when you know that your ''state'' isn't perfect and has much more ''errors'' then a other state who are you then to say or your values are ''superior'' or ''better'' ?

Let's try this, F0aud:

I'm a non-religious bisexual polyamorous woman who is a professional dancer and wears costuming that shows skin from time to time depending on the context of the performance I'm in. How would my life differ in various places around the world? Where would I feel safest? Where would I be considered equal in the eyes of the presiding justice system, law enforcement, and legislating bodies?

You know why I speak up? Because there are people who have at worst openly voiced they'd like to see somebody like me dead, and at best think I should be treated as a second-class citizen. I don't see it as a radical POV to say my life has value, and I deserve to have the same protections and rights as any other citizen.

 

[Straw Dog]

Sahar,

Now this is not my problem. My problem is not about having opposite views. But about the fact that because you think that your values are better than mine, we have to formulate the laws of our country according to yours. I can't help saying this is a typical imperialistic mindset. Almost all Muslim countries have suffered from Western imperialism and colonialism. And they have paid very expensive price for this and in their attempts to get their independence (of course they still do).

I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a right and I think it must be illegalized. The society I live in agrees on my view and it's manifested in the Law.

Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

Human rights cross borders and are universal. Sorry when we are having our differences on some values, surely this means they are not universal. Sure there are some universal values, but we disagree on others. Not because there are some people who consider them to be universal, they must be. Not because you think that yours are more superior to ours, it must mean we should be ruled by yours (except of course believing that you have more powers than others and this gives you the right to subdue them).

It is true that different people hold different values, but there are also other values that tend to be universal across cultures. The problem in the past has been cultural imperialism with traditional power structures seeking to dominate each other.

I believe that the form of government influences this problem a great deal. Centralized, bureaucratic federal govt is becoming increasingly rigid and obsolete. The politicians are floating off in their own bubbles of grandiosity and becoming too far removed from the original source of power from their communities.

I'm in favor of municipalities having more power in policy-making to better reflect the views of the local culture with the basic rights of everyone being defended by the mainstream culture and a confederation formed by modern telecommunications. This is only one example of how to have a government with more flexible policy making. The key is allowing individual communities the ability to determine the policies guiding their environments. Too many big decisions are being decided by very few people.

 

[Koldo]

I'm against war pretty much all out. However, I do realize that it's something that happens, and there's pretty much nothing that can be done to stop it. However, this is one of the main ways that the influx of a foreign culture comes to another country.

Well, yes.
But this isn't a criticism specific to America. Nor to the western countries.

If needs be. All of the wars that Americans have been in, all of the lives lost, it's something that we're used to, it's ingrained into our minds that such a sacrifice is what brings about freedom, whether it actually does or not.

I disagree with you completely then. If a bloodbath can be avoided, i do rather see intervention than to see the blood on our hands by omission.

First, there is an addiction factor to something like fast food. We see that every day in the states, our obesity problem is through the roof, and that's one of the primary factors. Liking something, and it being good for you are two separate things, and when you factor in a belief that such a thing is wrong/evil/unwholesome, it's something else altogether. And, as psychology has shown us, a person can be addicted to almost anything. Does a cokehead want coke before he has it? No, but after that first taste, he's hooked. It all starts somewhere.

I don't disagree with any of this.
What i disagree with is the notion that McDonald's still stands in these places because people got addicted to it, and not because they like the food.
I would like to know how you reached this conclusion.

It's being forced because it's been put in place where people don't want it, it doesn't matter how it got there. Their rights to live how they want are being taken away by a foreign culture.

My conclusion, so far, is that you are lending ears to a portion of the population that voice their opinion against it, but not listening to the other part that purchase and supports foreign goods and services.

 

[FearGod]

The beauty of the internet and free speech is that we as a culture do not need the governments approval to put pressure on foreign governments, we can actually get our governments to put pressure on them with petitions, or put pressure directly on those people and nations using the internet.

In other words I don't think the governments JUST play on the world issues that suit their interests, although they do attempt to bring them to the top of the list. The thing is I don't see where these issues are being brought up by western governments, these issues are being brought up by free people in free countries, not by governments.

heres an example right at this very moment:

Avaaz - Horror in paradise

The Maldives legal system is derived mainly from traditional islamic law, so why was this girl ever even allowed to be publicly sentenced to 100 lashes in public? This is exactly what I was talking about, a girl that is underage being raped repeatedly by her father until she had a child, and the child, the baby, has already been murdered and now SHE is supposed to be whipped 100 times. Is that the kind of government you're arguing for? Because it sounds like you're arguing for one similar to what the western culture has seen as good and just, but then you say you don't like the "culture." I'm not sure at all where you stand, you're not making it clear.

Islamic laws in Maldives.

Welcome to the nightlife in Maldives,Islamic law.:biglaugh:

Reference : http://travelworldall.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/nightlife-in-maldives-9.jpg

You have also to read the news thoroughly as he wasn't the father who spent years ******* her but was the stepfather and that awful family murdered the born child and she was enjoying it for years,so they are all an atheist family and not an Islamic one because such awful acts aren't allowed in Islam.

That have being said,then where was the world when millions of the Iraqi children were dying by the war against what was found to be the big lie,where was the world when Gaza children were dying because of the war and siege on Gaza.

Now all the world want to save one innocent girl from lashing,OMG,how stupid and nonsense is this.

 

[Falvlun]

Well you are already assuming that those ''freedoms'' are superior instead of looking at the broader picture on how these laws are implemented in the ''Muslim'' countries and Western countries. See you just went on a rampage on what ''Muslim'' countries do not allow while the majority does allow the same things, then you totally miss presented the implantation's of those laws and finally you came to the conclusion to condemn these things.

Most of the things you pointed out are all accepted by the majority of the ''Muslim'' countries they are just somehow altered and even improved in some cases. Like i said your talking about theory but when take a closer look at the societies we clearly see that the West has the same amount of failures or even worse in the things you yourself mentioned.

Now instead of changing the whole subject and continue this go back to my original post and actually address the things i said.

You didn't say anything about countries in that post. I was talking about Muslim values vs Western values, which is what the OP is about. I am not talking about specific countries.

I asked you to present some specific example of something that Western people decry about Muslim values but that they do themselves. I cannot address the things you said until you give me a specific answer to that question.

Your post implied that there was hypocrisy on part of Westerners in their assessment of Muslim values. I pointed out that the two main things about Muslim values that get our panties all in a bunch are the treatment of religion and women. I do not feel that Western society has the same sort of religious intolerance and view of woman that Muslim societies do, hence there is no hypocrisy.

 

[BSM1]

Let's try this, F0aud:

I'm a non-religious bisexual polyamorous woman who is a professional dancer and wears costuming that shows skin from time to time depending on the context of the performance I'm in. How would my life differ in various places around the world? Where would I feel safest? Where would I be considered equal in the eyes of the presiding justice system, law enforcement, and legislating bodies?

You know why I speak up? Because there are people who have at worst openly voiced they'd like to see somebody like me dead, and at best think I should be treated as a second-class citizen. I don't see it as a radical POV to say my life has value, and I deserve to have the same protections and rights as any other citizen.

You go girl:

I think Mystic has hit on a good point. In this country she has every right to express herself (as long as it doesn't injure others) in any manner she sees fit. By the same token the offended or the self-righteous has every right to voice their opinions opposing her statement. However neither has the right to persecute or deny the other the freedom of expression. In this country Mystic has the God given right to look religious or government leaders in the eye and tell them to pound sand. If Mystic were to take her particular brand of expression to, let's say, Iran, how do you think she would fare if she told the Aytollah to take a hike? IMO, this jealousy of the personal freedom we have in this country is what really rubs a lot of the people who live in oppressive societies raw. Many realize they would like this freedom, but may have to sacrifice for it. Maybe even die for it. Americans always have and always will be ready to sacrifice what ever it takes to remain free. Does this make us "superior"? Dang Skippy.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You go girl:

I think Mystic has hit on a good point. In this country she has every right to express herself (as long as it doesn't injure others) in any manner she sees fit. By the same token the offended or the self-righteous has every right to voice their opinions opposing her statement. However neither has the right to persecute or deny the other the freedom of expression. In this country Mystic has the God given right to look religious or government leaders in the eye and tell them to pound sand. If Mystic were to take her particular brand of expression to, let's say, Iran, how do you think she would fare if she told the Aytollah to take a hike? IMO, this jealousy of the personal freedom we have in this country is what really rubs a lot of the people who live in oppressive societies raw. Many realize they would like this freedom, but may have to sacrifice for it. Maybe even die for it. Americans always have and always will be ready to sacrifice what ever it takes to remain free. Does this make us "superior"? Dang Skippy.

Pound sand? I've never heard that before. LOL

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Well, yes.
But this isn't a criticism specific to America. Nor to the western countries.

Granted, but as an American, I have to look at it from our point of view, either to accept it, or reject it.

I disagree with you completely then. If a bloodbath can be avoided, i do rather see intervention than to see the blood on our hands by omission.

But at what cost? Like we say here in the states, freedom isn't free.

I don't disagree with any of this.
What i disagree with is the notion that McDonald's still stands in these places because people got addicted to it, and not because they like the food.
I would like to know how you reached this conclusion.

By psychological studies done in the US, researching the effects of fast food on the mind in the wake of our obesity crisis.

My conclusion, so far, is that you are lending ears to a portion of the population that voice their opinion against it, but not listening to the other part that purchase and supports foreign goods and services.

There's no issue with exchanging goods and services, as long as such an exchange does not infringe on the beliefs of one or both of the parties involved.

 

[jonman122]

Islamic laws in Maldives.

Welcome to the nightlife in Maldives,Islamic law.:biglaugh:

Reference : http://travelworldall.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/nightlife-in-maldives-9.jpg

You have also to read the news thoroughly as he wasn't the father who spent years ******* her but was the stepfather and that awful family murdered the born child and she was enjoying it for years,so they are all an atheist family and not an Islamic one because such awful acts aren't allowed in Islam.

That have being said,then where was the world when millions of the Iraqi children were dying by the war against what was found to be the big lie,where was the world when Gaza children were dying because of the war and siege on Gaza.

Now all the world want to save one innocent girl from lashing,OMG,how stupid and nonsense is this.

Actually lots of people were and are against the war in Iraq, some American soldiers were so against it they defected from the military which is incredibly illegal in the USA. The family IS an Islamic family and the logic you're using to try and claim they're atheists is ridiculous and just shows how hard you're trying to grasp straws to try and find some kind of foothold. the government has taken SOME steps in stopping this terrible atrocity, but if it's still going to happen and PUBLICLY, then they obviously aren't doing enough.

"In an incident that has triggered widespread condemnation, the 15-year-old from the remote Feydhoo island was this week also ordered to spend eight months under house arrest. The flogging – handed down under a system of Shariah Law – will be carried out once the teenager reaches the age of 18 though she can ask it to be brought forward if she wishes."

Hey look, on the bright side the 100 lashes that will lacerate her back and either kill her or maim her for life will only happen once she's of legal age, total bonus man.

Also any country that is a tourist trap is going to have tourist places, in resorts and on beaches. Kind of like how Mexico has resorts and clubs, until you're in the jungle.

 

[Alceste]

Very nice post sister.

The white man is always superior to everyone else. They are more evolved apparently. For humanity to move forward the racist white man must be obeyed.

Anyone who comes to Australia must 'blend' in and know the language, not bring their culture here and live a different way of life. Yet when the English came here the aboriginals had to obtain a passport to be called citizens of Australia. And now when an english speaking person goes overseas, everyone must speak his language.

In all honesty all I can say is good on them.

That's ridiculous. I speak three languages.