Overturning Roe V Wade

[Kenny]

I can't tell if this is what you believe or you're you're being willfully obtuse.

Just extrapolating your principles.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And this is love manifest. It is this kind of love that causes wars IMO. It is all about me, no responsibility, no sacrifice.

Maybe that is why I like the history of Jesus who came to serve and not to be served. It was unselfishness vs selfishness, it was responsibility vs irresponsibility, it was love your neighbor vs crucify your neighbor. It was suffer the little children to come.

Yes... I like the the history of Jesus.

And he loves those who have had abortions too.

I know you care about tge history of Jesus. It explains why Christian lawmaking is so unhinged, based off fictitious fantasy instead of actual people they only pretend to care about when they think it scores them morality points.

 

[Kenny]

I haven't read through the whole thread. What I wanted to comment on is how this is likely to damage the Republicans.

But ask me if I care. I'm a free-willed spirit being that loves life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hmmm... my 84 year old mother-in-laws uses our bodies (which includes my organs) and everything we have to buy groceries, go to the doctor, massage her legs etc.

So, for you, just let her die because she doesn't have your consent to use your body for her needs. Got it.

Another incredibly bad argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just extrapolating your principles.

Nope.

 

[Kenny]

I know you care about tge history of Jesus. It explains why Christian lawmaking is so unhinged, based off fictitious fantasy instead of actual people they only pretend to care about when they think it scores them morality points.

LOL... I don't think so.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

LOL... I don't think so.

You could have ended the sentence a word sooner.

 

[fantome profane]

And that, is what we are trying to figure out. What is her "right to live" vs the babies "right to live".

Let me ask you the question again. If someone out there needed your kidney, and for some strange quirk of genetics and biochemistry it needs to be your kidney, no other kidney would do.

I am not asking what you would do, that is not the question.

The question is should the government force you to give up your kidney?

 

[Trailblazer]

God (supposedly) created the natural world in which some percentage of pregnancies end up being spontaneously aborted. How is God not responsible for that?

If you want to take that stance, then you would have to say that God is responsible for everything that happens in the natural world since God created the natural world.

As I said, souls that were spontaneously aborted or aborted by the mother are under the care and protection of God. According to my Baha'i beliefs...

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

So what's your problem with abortion then? If aborted babies go straight to heaven "under the care and protection of God" whether aborted naturally or by choice, if they all end up in the same wonderful and amazing place anyway? It sounds like aborted fetuses are better off being aborted then having to spend a lifetime potentially suffering here on earth.

Maybe they are better off and maybe they are not better off, but the point is that every soul should be given that opportunity. In spite of all the suffering in this world there is a purpose for going through life in this world, otherwise God would not have designed it this way. We learn and grow spiritually from living in this world. A child that missed that chance will be recompensed by God in the next world but they still missed the opportunity they could have had to grow and develop spiritually in this world.

I can understand why it is not a moral issue for atheists and agnostics, but for me it is a moral issue since I am a religious person who believes in God and God's Laws. Below is the Baha'i position on abortion:

"Basically the deliberate taking of human life is forbidden in the Cause, but the Sacred Text envisages certain possible exceptions to this rule and allows for the Universal House of Justice to legislate upon them. One such possible exception is the matter of abortion. It is clear that it is absolutely forbidden for a woman to have an abortion merely because she wants to have one, but there may be circumstances in which an abortion might be justified. However, at the present time we do not wish to legislate on whether or in what circumstances abortion may be permitted, and therefore the whole matter is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice on the case in the light of the general guidance given in the Teachings."

Universal House of Justice, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Bahá’í Communities
Abortion | Bahá’í Quotes

"Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1154)

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Just extrapolating your principles.

Really? Because it sounds like you're just speaking over me with things I didn't say to try and twist my 'principals' into your demonization

 

[Kenny]

Let me ask you the question again. If someone out there needed your kidney, and for some strange quirk of genetics and biochemistry it needs to be your kidney, no other kidney would do.

I am not asking what you would do, that is not the question.

The question is should the government force you to give up your kidney?

Creating a false construct to then destroy it isn't a correct application. Anybody can do that.

If you were being falsely accused but you had no money to defend yourself, should a lawyer be forced to give you some sort of representation?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think you missed my point. What is best for her.
What she thinks is best for her is what she wants and what people want is not necessarily the right thing to do.
The doctor only knows what is best for her physical body but that is not what we are talking about.

I would say that what's best for her is whatever she wants. It's her body. It's her life.

No, but how is that relevant?

I'm pointing out that asking what a fetus wants is kind of pointless.

Souls are not being put into fetuses. According to my beliefs, the human soul comes into being at the time of conception. If a soul was aborted naturally that is not a choice so the woman is not responsible for that, since it was out of her control.

Okay, so souls are being put into zygotes then.

Either way, according to what you told me, zygotes end up in with god regardless of whether they were naturally aborted or aborted by choice.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If you don't want children, tie the tubes or a vasectomy.

That's good advice for you if that's how you feel. It usually works.

If you don't want the burden of caring for a child, don't have a baby or give it up to one of the thousands who want to adopt one. Some will even pay your medical costs.

More good advice for you, and consistent with your religious beliefs. Others will choose according to their own beliefs.

But ask me if I care.

Let me address that with your own words and your emoji:

That is a perspective that goes in both directions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you want to take that stance, then you would have to say that God is responsible for everything that happens in the natural world since God created the natural world.

As I said, souls that were spontaneously aborted or aborted by the mother are under the care and protection of God. According to my Baha'i beliefs...

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

Maybe they are better off and maybe they are not better off, but the point is that every soul should be given that opportunity. In spite of all the suffering in this world there is a purpose for going through life in this world, otherwise God would not have designed it this way. We learn and grow spiritually from living in this world. A child that missed that chance will be recompensed by God in the next world but they still missed the opportunity they could have had to grow and develop spiritually in this world.

I can understand why it is not a moral issue for atheists and agnostics, but for me it is a moral issue since I am a religious person who believes in God and God's Laws. Below is the Baha'i position on abortion:

"Basically the deliberate taking of human life is forbidden in the Cause, but the Sacred Text envisages certain possible exceptions to this rule and allows for the Universal House of Justice to legislate upon them. One such possible exception is the matter of abortion. It is clear that it is absolutely forbidden for a woman to have an abortion merely because she wants to have one, but there may be circumstances in which an abortion might be justified. However, at the present time we do not wish to legislate on whether or in what circumstances abortion may be permitted, and therefore the whole matter is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice on the case in the light of the general guidance given in the Teachings."

Universal House of Justice, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Bahá’í Communities
Abortion | Bahá’í Quotes

"Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1154)

That is just a religious belief. Why give it any more credence than a religious belief that claimed aborted fetuses go directly to heaven and the moral act is to get an abortion before they have a chance to go to hell?

 

[SkepticThinker]

EXACTLY the same thing. Same principle. It is a burden, they have health issues that are costly, we have to take care of them and I have a life to live free from the burden of responsibility.

It is euthanasia... every child's right

It's not. And I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're even reading my posts.

Comparing a fetus/blastocyst/zygote to a fully grown, fully developed, thinking, breathing, fully conscious human being with social ties and a life is silly.

Another poster pointed out how your comparison could be relevant, like if the 75 year-old guy needed a kidney, and someone was forcing me to give mine to him without my consent.

 

[Kenny]

Really? Because it sounds like you're just speaking over me with things I didn't say to try and twist my 'principals' into your demonization

Not my intent. Just defending life and why I am for protections for those who have no voice.

 

[Kenny]

That's good advice for you if that's how you feel. It usually works.



More good advice for you, and consistent with your religious beliefs. Others will choose according to their own beliefs.



Let me address that with your own words and your emoji:

And so.. the saga continues and we let the courts do their job.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hmmm... my 84 year old mother-in-laws uses our bodies (which includes my organs) and everything we have to buy groceries, go to the doctor, massage her legs etc.

So, for you, just let her die because she doesn't have your consent to use your body for her needs. Got it.

Oh, do you take her on piggyback? Connect her to your lungs via some sort of tube?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ever heard of father's who don't bother to pay child support?
Of course.

That requires a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, along with all the financial costs, changes to her body, etc. that come with it. Never mind how traumatizing it can be give up a child in such a way.

Yes, it would require a sacrifice on her part and most women are not up to that, obviously, since abortion has been a readily available solution.

So you are suggesting abstinence ... ?

Those raging hormones are a fact of reality. So is people having sex. Let's face reality instead of wishing it was some other way.

I do wish it was some other way but I know that won't happen until the distant future when society changes and people put less emphasis on sex and more emphasis on God, and follow the Laws of God.

You know, even married couples can have unwanted pregnancies as well. Let's not pretend that marriage solves any of these problems.

Sure that can happen but it does not normally happen if one is conscientious about birth control.
And if it does happen to a married couple at least they can care for the child together.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not my intent. Just defending life and why I am for protections for those who have no voice.

I'm for defending human rights, which includes body autonomy. Which is not about labor contracts or any of that, but specifically that no matter how great the need, no matter who said what, nobody gets to use someone else's blood, organs, tissue without their continuous consent. It's not noble to compel someone to do it. That's not love, that's slavery.