Overturning Roe V Wade

[SkepticThinker]

I don't think that this will trigger the Blue Wave that was half way expected when Biden won. But I do expect so see some changes. Perhaps enough to pass a federal law on abortion. Though I wonder about the Constitutionality about that. If anything, funding of states from various programs could be tied into their abortion laws. We saw it with speed limits, why not abortions? Once again, 59% of Americans are pro-abortion.

I think the Democrats are too weak and feckless to do anything like that. Look how they're basically just lying down now and doing nothing.
They're all just so shocked that the Supreme Court justices lied about their intentions during their hearings.

 

[Kenny]

Literally there are people are saying that. Or what they and lawmakers consider life in danger is nebulous enough to allow for instances of patients dying while doctors are worried about liability.

But I wasn't talking about just life threatening complications. You don't need that for ridiculous expense.

As for tubal libations amd vasectomies, plenty of people get them only to find out they can fail. And plenty of others would love to get them but can't afford them or, get this, are refused by doctors who often won't preform sterility surgeries on women until after they're 35 because they're worried about being sued *by the husbands.*

This year... abortions 14,600,000 and counting.

I don't think vasectomies and tubal ties fail that much or cost that much.

Why not?

 

[SkepticThinker]

A pregnancy should be able to be ended at any point in pregnancy. If point of reasonable viability has been reached (25 weeks or do) then ending the pregnancy by induced birth or by c-section should be attempted unless due to things like hemorrhagic bleeding or organ failure or seizure live birth would be untenable. Left purely to doctor discretion and not to be determined by the courts.

Irrelevant. My answer would be the same if it was a fully grown adult in there, let alone a baby.

Irrelevant. Under no circumstances does being at fault make removal of body autonomy permissible. Which is why you can't force a drunk driver to hand over blood and organ tissue if they hit someone.

This ^^^

 

[SkepticThinker]

Childbirth is not a natural consequence of having sex.
Consent to sex comes with the risk of getting pregnant, especially if someone does not use adequate birth control.
If a woman does not want to take any chances then she should either be really careful with birth control or not have sex. It really is as simple as that.

Did you not tell me earlier that you weren't advocating for abstinence?
That appears to be the very thing you are doing here.

 

[fantome profane]

This year... abortions 14,600,000 and counting.

I don't think vasectomies and tubal ties fail that much or cost that much.

Why not?

Maybe they should be free.

 

[Kenny]

That does nothing to help them deal with their two unwanted pregnancies that already occurred.
Accidents happen, is the point.

That is a very tepid point IMO. If you doh't want it, give it up for adoption (or go across to the next state or 3 miles out in sea and have one):

"In fact, according to one study covering families looking to adopt statistics, about 81.5 million Americans have considered adopting a child at one time in their lives."

Heaven forbid that we would consider blessing someone.

Who know, maybe your life is on the chopping block at age 75 because you are not wanted and are a burden?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Maybe they should be free.

Just did some quick reading ... in countries with universal healthcare (which is pretty much any country, save for the US) vasectomy rates are higher than they are in the US.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is a very tepid point IMO. If you doh't want it, give it up for adoption (or go across to the next state or 3 miles out in sea and have one):

"In fact, according to one study covering families looking to adopt statistics, about 81.5 million Americans have considered adopting a child at one time in their lives."

Heaven forbid that we would consider blessing someone.

This has already been addressed by myself and several other posters.

Who know, maybe your life is on the chopping block at age 75 because you are not wanted and are a burden?

How is that even remotely the same thing?

 

[Trailblazer]

Statistically, there are a myriad of problems associated with single parent homes. That's exacerbated with low income, and to be sure, "banning" abortion is going to hit low income mothers the hardest.

I am all for another way to end unwanted pregnancies but I do not see abortion as the solution.
The only solutions are universal and better birth control or abstinence.

As I recall, there is no where near a 1 to 1 ratio, so lots of kids would not get adopted. And BTW, I have heard of adoption, my sister was adopted.

I was talking about newborns getting adopted, not children. Given all the women who cannot get pregnant, I cannot imagine that a newborn would not get adopted and be wanted and loved. Having to keep a baby is no reason for having an abortion. Imo, it is just an excuse.

I'm not aware of any society for which your approach has worked unless harsh coercion was involved. Can you name any? It strikes me that you're hoping against hope that our biology won't be what it is.

I am not recommending harsh coercion. I think that the states should decide until there is another solution.

As for morality, I would say that most of us share a common morality on many points, ultimately disagreeing on only a few.

That might be true, but sex is where many people disagree, as it is an emotionally charged issue, as well as being a religious issue with some of us who have laws in our religion.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

This year... abortions 14,600,000 and counting.

I don't think vasectomies and tubal ties fail that much or cost that much.

Why not?

You just literally heard from someone who has seen them fail multiple times.
And for people the egregiously high amount of poverty the US has, it does cost 'that much' when they can't even afford a box of condoms.

For me it's not a problem. I use multiple overlapping contraceptive methods. But if they fail I *will* be getting an abortion. And no state or federal governance will stop me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am all for another way to end unwanted pregnancies but I do not see abortion as the solution.
The only solutions are universal and better birth control or abstinence.

I was talking about newborns getting adopted, not children. Given all the women who cannot get pregnant, I cannot imagine that a newborn would not get adopted and be wanted and loved. Having to keep a baby is no reason for having an abortion. Imo, it is just an excuse.

I am not recommending harsh coercion. I think that the states should decide until there is another solution.

That might be true, but sex is where many people disagree, as it is an emotionally charged issue, as well as being a religious issue with some of us who have laws in our religion.

"According to the most recent federal data, there are currently more than 400,000 children in foster care in the United States. They range in age from infants to 21 years old (in some states). The average age of a child in foster care is more than 8 years old, and there are slightly more boys than girls."
About the children.

 

[Trailblazer]

But not really akin to going to the store for a soda. It is a medical procedure, after all.

But one medical procedure is a lot easier than carrying a child for nine months, delivering and raising a child, and that was my point.

As it should be, imo, because each case will be different.

I agree.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I am all for another way to end unwanted pregnancies but I do not see abortion as the solution.
The only solutions are universal and better birth control or abstinence.

I was talking about newborns getting adopted, not children. Given all the women who cannot get pregnant, I cannot imagine that a newborn would not get adopted and be wanted and loved. Having to keep a baby is no reason for having an abortion. Imo, it is just an excuse.

I am not recommending harsh coercion. I think that the states should decide until there is another solution.

That might be true, but sex is where many people disagree, as it is an emotionally charged issue, as well as being a religious issue with some of us who have laws in our religion.

I just don't understand how people can look at the issue for any length of time and think that adoption will solve it when ****ty healthcare costs, high rates of maternal complications including severe injury and death are so prevalent in the US.

Accessible abortion isn't about not wanting children in one's life. It's about self defense.

 

[Trailblazer]

Temporary inconvenience? Having a child is a lot more than that.

She should have thought of that before she had sex without using adequate birth control, not after.
It is called taking responsibility.

 

[Kenny]

A pregnancy should be able to be ended at any point in pregnancy. If point of reasonable viability has been reached (25 weeks or do) then ending the pregnancy by induced birth or by c-section should be attempted unless due to things like hemorrhagic bleeding or organ failure or seizure live birth would be untenable. Left purely to doctor discretion and not to be determined by the courts.

And here, imv, is the crux. It has nothing to do with "poor" and "financial duress" but rather just personal preference on what constitutes a "burden". For that matter, at age 1 we should equally be able to terminate the life because we had a financial change and they are now a "burden"

Yes, abortions are necessary in extreme cases. Granted.

Irrelevant. My answer would be the same if it was a fully grown adult in there, let alone a baby.

I think it is very relevant

Irrelevant. Under no circumstances does being at fault make removal of body autonomy permissible. Which is why you can't force a drunk driver to hand over blood and organ tissue if they hit someone.

I don't think it is body autonomy any more than it is body autonomy outside the womb. They have a different brain wavelength, different heart beat, different fingerprints, different blood type... it is a different person.

 

[SkepticThinker]

She should have thought of that before she had sex without using adequate birth control, not after.
It is called taking responsibility.

Having an abortion is "taking responsibility" for the consequences of one's actions. It's just not the action you would personally choose. Of course, that's fine too. Your body, your choice.
People can and do become pregnant while using birth control, after having a vasectomy or a tubal ligation, etc.

I'm sorry but I find your views on this to be archaic and completely unrealistic. Honestly it just sounds like you think a person who ends up with an unwanted pregnancy deserves some sort of punishment or something ... "she should have thought of that ..." Well, maybe she did. And maybe she used protection and got pregnant anyway. Or maybe she didn't. But I don't see how it's any of your business (or mine) anyway.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

She should have thought of that before she had sex without using adequate birth control, not after.
It is called taking responsibility.

From my perspective getting an abortion instead of putting yourself and a potential child in physical emotional and financial peril *is* taking responsibility. That doesn't mean I'm not pro-contraceptive availability. It just means I don't think it stops there.

 

[Kenny]

I just don't understand how people can look at the issue for any length of time and think that adoption will solve it when ****ty healthcare costs, high rates of maternal complications including severe injury and death are so prevalent in the US.

Accessible abortion isn't about not wanting children in one's life. It's about self defense.

Then lets kill the sick 75 year olds (oops, I'm almost there) because of the healthcare cost, physical complications including cancers, pneumonia, covid, et al and death is so prevalent in the US.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Then lets kill the sick 75 year olds (oops, I'm almost there) because of the healthcare cost, physical complications including cancers, pneumonia, covid, et al and death is so prevalent in the US.

Not even remotely the same thing.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Really? Rember Bush v Gore? The constitution was interpreted against state right of FL.

How does this relate to my statement? Not every right or law is decided by the states per the constitution. Maybe they got it wrong.