Overturning Roe V Wade

[Trailblazer]

Religion, mostly.

Agreed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I will say this a second time. I have no problem with an abortion to save a mothers life if that is the decision that is made by the mother.

She wasn't able to. All medical decisions had to be made by her parents because whe was in a coma.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So where do you factor in colossal negative economic changes that might suddenly impinge on a would-be mother's life. Let's say, that the child would have been born into a decent situation, but now suddenly, that looks like it's completely off the table, for any number of reasons. She can still have it, but it's clearly now more of a bet. Now religious people, have metaphysical reasons why they say someone in such a situation ought always to be born. But with you being atheist, I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from - regarding specifically the argument I just made.

A bad situation does not mean we should terminate the life. I think the overall well being of the situation is maximized to have the child even into a bad situation. Maximize well being is the basis for my morality and the idea that life is preferable to death unless a person decides otherwise is a key component. Economic situations will change over a lifetime. Is it ok to terminate a 10 year old child because the parents go bankrupt? No it is not.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

She wasn't able to. All medical decisions had to be made by her parents because whe was in a coma.

Ok, I am sorry to hear that. But I think that decision was a moral one.

 

[metis]

Someone earlier made the point that if one thinks having an abortion is murder, then let me give this scenario and get responses:

An 18-year-old is raped, and she decides to have an abortion, so should she be tried for murder? The SCOTUS proposal is that there is no exception for rape. If so, then should she be possibly executed in a state that has capital punishment, let's say like Florida?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, it would require a sacrifice on her part and most women are not up to that, obviously, since abortion has been a readily available solution.

A sacrifice? So, a punishment then, right? You think the only responsible choice involves some sort of sacrifice on the woman's part. Well, how do you know she hasn't already sacrificed something?

You know, since this Roe v. Wade decision became public, I've been reading tons of comments from women who have had abortions and the various reasons for doing so, and you know what I realized? There are so, so many ways a pregnancy can go wrong, even one that was wanted, where abortion can end up being the only available option for a person. For instance, this morning I read this one:

"In 2013 I got pregnant with triplets but we had no idea that one was growing in my fallopian tube. One night it burst open and I lost over 1/2 of the blood in my body and was very close to death. I needed an emergency surgery and a d&c. It not for Roe v. Wade, I'd be dead."

Or this one:

"i was raped at 13 before Roe v. Wade. The father of the baby was my father. My father told the doctor I was a ****. I was sent away to a home for unwed mothers. I named him James. 1970. Destroyed my life. Here I am."

So you know what? I'm going to reserve my judgment of other peoples' lives and choices, and leave those judgments and decisions up to them and their doctors, because they're the ones who know what's best for them.

I do wish it was some other way but I know that won't happen until the distant future when society changes and people put less emphasis on sex and more emphasis on God, and follow the Laws of God.

Abstinence is a totally realistic expectation. The vast majority of human beings are going to have sex. That's just reality.

Sure that can happen but it does not normally happen if one is conscientious about birth control.

It does though. Several posters, including myself have given examples on this thread.

And if it does happen to a married couple at least they can care for the child together.

What if the husband is abusive and the woman doesn't want to raise a child with him? What if they aren't financially capable? What if they aren't psychologically capable? What if something goes wrong with the pregnancy? I'm gonna go ahead and realize that people need to be able to make these types of decisions for themselves, without somebody else imposing their opinions and beliefs onto it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is moving the goal posts again. Complications are rare and if that is considered a possibility by the doctor then the abortion is deemed medically necessary and is even acceptable according to my religion.

It really isn't moving the goal posts at all. Complications that someone experiences during pregnancy can result in a person having to abort. I just gave an example in my last post.
And pregnancy complications aren't really all that rare.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How is that relevant to a newborn being adopted?

I'm pointing out that there are too many unwanted children in the system already.

 

[pearl]

An 18-year-old is raped, and she decides to have an abortion, so should she be tried for murder? The SCOTUS proposal is that there is no exception for rape. If so, then should she be possibly executed in a state that has capital punishment, let's say like Florida?

Its seems a no win situation, even if an exception for rape was allowed I am assuming that it must be proven, and we know how long that may take, well after the time an abortion would be granted, so it seems moot. And if the thought is of the innocence of the unborn then the product of rape is equally innocent.

 

[Trailblazer]

A sacrifice? So, a punishment then, right? You think the only responsible choice involves some sort of sacrifice on the woman's part. Well, how do you know she hasn't already sacrificed something?

A sacrifice for one person is a punishment to another person. It all depends upon the person's perspective.
I am not here to judge people. I simply have a personal opinion just like everyone else.
What I consider a responsible choice is not going to be the same as what you would consider a responsible choice

What is a responsible choice might also vary according to the situation, but maybe some lawmakers who want to ban abortion altogether think of it this way: If we had laws that said that murder is okay under certain circumstances what would be the deterrent for a man who wanted to murder his wife because it was inconvenient to get a divorce and have to divide the assets?

So you know what? I'm going to reserve my judgment of other peoples' lives and choices, and leave those judgments and decisions up to them and their doctors, because they're the ones who know what's best for them.

I leave all judgments to God. I only have a personal opinion.
Everyone has to make their own choices for which they alone are responsible;

Abstinence is a totally realistic expectation. The vast majority of human beings are going to have sex. That's just reality.

I am not recommending abstinence. I am recommending perfect-use birth control.

It does though. Several posters, including myself have given examples on this thread.

It can happen, but the failure rate is not high.

Shorter-acting hormonal methods include the pill, patch, injectable and vaginal ring. The injectable has a typical-use failure rate of 4%, and a perfect-use failure rate of less than 1%. The pill, ring and patch have typical-use failure rates of 7%, and perfect-use failure rates of less than 1%.

Contraceptive Effectiveness in the United States - Guttmacher ..

Effectiveness of Birth Control Methods

What if the husband is abusive and the woman doesn't want to raise a child with him? What if they aren't financially capable? What if they aren't psychologically capable? What if something goes wrong with the pregnancy? I'm gonna go ahead and realize that people need to be able to make these types of decisions for themselves, without somebody else imposing their opinions and beliefs onto it.

You could go on and on and on with the what ifs. I agree that women need to be able to make these types of decisions for themselves, without somebody else imposing their opinions and beliefs onto it.

I do not follow politics so I do not know the answers to the following questions.

When did the right to have an abortion become a human right?
When did an abortion come to be considered routine medical care?

An abortion is a voluntary surgery, so I do not consider it medical care unless it is medically necessary, and this might include physical or psychological reasons why a woman cannot have a child.

 

[Trailblazer]

It really isn't moving the goal posts at all. Complications that someone experiences during pregnancy can result in a person having to abort. I just gave an example in my last post.
And pregnancy complications aren't really all that rare.

So should everyone have an abortion before they have any complications just to prevent pregnancy complications?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm pointing out that there are too many unwanted children in the system already.

That s a red herring because there are no newborns that will end up being unwanted.
Why would a family adopt a child they did not want?

Do newborns always get adopted?

We know that this a big concern for many women who consider adoption, but when you place your baby through an adoption agency like American Adoptions, your baby is always adopted, no matter what.

Are Babies Given Up for Adoption Always Adopted? - American ...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So you know what? I'm going to reserve my judgment of other peoples' lives and choices, and leave those judgments and decisions up to them and their doctors, because they're the ones who know what's best for them.

I don't know why that's so hard to honor that. And worse yet Republicans are stomping and spitting all over that amd insisting they must approve of what treatments someone gets.
That's not freedom or liberty, but tyranny.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That s a red herring because there are no newborns that will end up being unwanted.
Why would a family adopt a child they did not want?

Do newborns always get adopted?

We know that this a big concern for many women who consider adoption, but when you place your baby through an adoption agency like American Adoptions, your baby is always adopted, no matter what.

Are Babies Given Up for Adoption Always Adopted? - American ...

Yo u cannot use a highly biased source and expect people to believe it. Also, not a red herring. His point was valid. Yes, right now there are children that go unadopted and it is because people do not want them. They want a baby. Some of them do adopt older children when the realize that they can't get a baby. Babies are in high demand largely due to abortion. If abortions were made illegal we might see a glut of babies, but even if that did not happen the chances of older children being adopted would be lower.

 

[JIMMY12345]

A problem with conservatives on the court is that
they tend to be more fundamentalist Christian.
Despite biblical ambiguities regarding abortion,
then tend to believe the Bible prohibits abortion.
(It also prohibits divorce, gay marriage, & other
useful things....so I've been told.)
The body of law is massive, & balances competing
interests. This allows theocrats to find refuge in
the complexity when crafting biblical based law.

This does not excuse liberals playing the same game
when seeking mischief, eg, Kelo vs New London.
Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia

Why is it Republicans are anti and Democrats ok with abortion?
I thought both camps would have backers of each side. I do not understand why there is a political divide.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't know why that's so hard to honor that. And worse yet Republicans are stomping and spitting all over that amd insisting they must approve of what treatments someone gets.
That's not freedom or liberty, but tyranny.

Exactly. Keep the government out of our lives, except for the deepest, most intimate decisions you have to make about your own body and life - then they want to be all up inside our genitals and hiding under our beds making sure we're having the "right" kind of sex.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A sacrifice for one person is a punishment to another person. It all depends upon the person's perspective.
I am not here to judge people. I simply have a personal opinion just like everyone else.
What I consider a responsible choice is not going to be the same as what you would consider a responsible choice

What is a responsible choice might also vary according to the situation, but maybe some lawmakers who want to ban abortion altogether think of it this way: If we had laws that said that murder is okay under certain circumstances what would be the deterrent for a man who wanted to murder his wife because it was inconvenient to get a divorce and have to divide the assets?

I leave all judgments to God. I only have a personal opinion.
Everyone has to make their own choices for which they alone are responsible;

I am not recommending abstinence. I am recommending perfect-use birth control.

It can happen, but the failure rate is not high.

Shorter-acting hormonal methods include the pill, patch, injectable and vaginal ring. The injectable has a typical-use failure rate of 4%, and a perfect-use failure rate of less than 1%. The pill, ring and patch have typical-use failure rates of 7%, and perfect-use failure rates of less than 1%.

Contraceptive Effectiveness in the United States - Guttmacher ..

Effectiveness of Birth Control Methods

You could go on and on and on with the what ifs. I agree that women need to be able to make these types of decisions for themselves, without somebody else imposing their opinions and beliefs onto it.

I do not follow politics so I do not know the answers to the following questions.

When did the right to have an abortion become a human right?
When did an abortion come to be considered routine medical care?

An abortion is a voluntary surgery, so I do not consider it medical care unless it is medically necessary, and this might include physical or psychological reasons why a woman cannot have a child.

I could go on and on and on and on about the "what ifs" and that's basically what it all boils down to.
There are endless what ifs, so let's leave these kinds of decisions up to the people involved and stay the hell out of it.
Any surgery is medical in nature.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So should everyone have an abortion before they have any complications just to prevent pregnancy complications?

That doesn't make any sense.

I was pointing out how talking about pregnancy complications that may end with the person having to abort, is not moving any goal posts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why is it Republicans are anti and Democrats ok with abortion?
I thought both camps would have backers of each side. I do not understand why there is a political divide.

In the late 1970's early 1980's abortion was adopted as a political platform by the Republican party. It may have been due to the failure of segregation which the Republicans supported since the Civil Rights Act of 1964. By the way, that act was the last time that the Republicans were on the side of personal rights for all. They supported that bill more strongly than the Democrats. That bill was also the end of the Democrats iron grip on the South. President Johnson, a Democrat, supported and signed that bill. in the Goldwater Johnson election Goldwater lost in a landslide with support coming almost exclusively from the South. That was almost surely the start of the Southern Strategy, something that Nixon advanced even more. They went after white voters in the south. But even their initial wins were looking a bit shaky in the late 70's and thus a new board in the platform was adopted. Before then Republicans were as much pro-abortion as Democrats were. Democrats to counter that became very pro abortion in their platform.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yo u cannot use a highly biased source and expect people to believe it. Also, not a red herring. His point was valid. Yes, right now there are children that go unadopted and it is because people do not want them. They want a baby. Some of them do adopt older children when the realize that they can't get a baby. Babies are in high demand largely due to abortion. If abortions were made illegal we might see a glut of babies, but even if that did not happen the chances of older children being adopted would be lower.

Yes, thank you.

And I don't see any reason to force people to have children when there are so many children without families as it is. Why make the situation worse?