Overturning Roe V Wade

[Subduction Zone]

That doesn't make any sense.

I was pointing out how talking about pregnancy complications that may end with the person having to abort, is not moving any goal posts.

One can tell if someone one is debating with is reasoning rationally or not by their use of logical fallacies. To those that do not reason rationally they look like magic words that refute an argument. So they throw them in from time to time hoping that they are uttering the spell correctly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, thank you.

And I don't see any reason to force people to have children when there are so many children without families as it is. Why make the situation worse?

What is rather odd about this is that for Christians, I cannot say about other religions, but anything that is Abrahamic should be the same, life does not begin until birth. This actually looks like a bit of a political snow job that supporters of the Republican party fell for. Before this was adopted by the Republicans as a board in their platform religious groups were on both sides of this. It became a politically polarizing piece when Republicans saw that it could help them with their agenda.

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot use a highly biased source and expect people to believe it.

I don't expect anyone to believe it. If you have a different source that contradicts please post it.

Meanwhile...

How Can I Find an Accurate Number of Parents Waiting to Adopt?

While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption. Based on this couples waiting to adopt statistic, many couples are waiting to adopt.

Consider this: about 10 percent of women in the United States — 6.1 million — have difficulty getting or staying pregnant. While not all women facing infertility will pursue adoption, a 2002 study by the Centers for Disease Control shows that more than half (57 percent) of women who use infertility services do consider adoption.

In addition, these numbers do not take into account how many parents want to adopt for reasons other than infertility. Many more hopeful parents choose to grow their families through adoption, whether they are unmarried individuals, members of the LGBTQ community, or anyone else who feels that they are meant to adopt. Still many other waiting families simply don’t care whether a child is biologically related to them or not, or wish to add another child through adoption after already having conceived one or more of their own. So, if you’re wondering how many couples are waiting to adopt right now, you should be happy the see that there are plenty from all kinds of backgrounds.
American Adoptions - How Many Couples are Waiting to Adopt a Baby?

Also, not a red herring. His point was valid. Yes, right now there are children that go unadopted and it is because people do not want them. They want a baby. Some of them do adopt older children when the realize that they can't get a baby. Babies are in high demand largely due to abortion. If abortions were made illegal we might see a glut of babies, but even if that did not happen the chances of older children being adopted would be lower.

It is a red herring since we are not talking about older children getting adopted, we are talking about newborns and whether they get adopted. Sure if there were more newborns up for adoption owing to fewer abortions then less older children would get adopted, but that is just one of many rationalizations for having abortions, a rather pathetic attempt to justify not carrying the baby to term and offering it for adoption for a family who really want a baby and cannot conceive.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any surgery is medical in nature.

But all surgeries are not medically necessary...
Do you think that health insurance should cover the cost of liposuction and facelifts?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't expect anyone to believe it. If you have a different source that contradicts please post it.

Meanwhile...

How Can I Find an Accurate Number of Parents Waiting to Adopt?

While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption. Based on this couples waiting to adopt statistic, many couples are waiting to adopt.

Consider this: about 10 percent of women in the United States — 6.1 million — have difficulty getting or staying pregnant. While not all women facing infertility will pursue adoption, a 2002 study by the Centers for Disease Control shows that more than half (57 percent) of women who use infertility services do consider adoption.

In addition, these numbers do not take into account how many parents want to adopt for reasons other than infertility. Many more hopeful parents choose to grow their families through adoption, whether they are unmarried individuals, members of the LGBTQ community, or anyone else who feels that they are meant to adopt. Still many other waiting families simply don’t care whether a child is biologically related to them or not, or wish to add another child through adoption after already having conceived one or more of their own. So, if you’re wondering how many couples are waiting to adopt right now, you should be happy the see that there are plenty from all kinds of backgrounds.
American Adoptions - How Many Couples are Waiting to Adopt a Baby?

It is a red herring since we are not talking about older children getting adopted, we are talking about newborns and whether they get adopted. Sure if there were more newborns up for adoption owing to fewer abortions then less older children would get adopted, but that is just one of many rationalizations for having abortions, a rather pathetic attempt to justify not carrying the baby to term and offering it for adoption for a family who really want a baby and cannot conceive.

You know older kids used to be babies once.

You want people to pump out babies for adoptive families, meanwhile there are thousands of unwanted kids in the foster care system as it is, all needing homes. But everyone wants babies so let's force people to carry babies they don't want to term so these people who can't bring themselves to adopt older kids can be happy with a newborn baby. Ugh.

Adopt a child - Children’s Aid Foundation of Canada

 

[Trailblazer]

What is rather odd about this is that for Christians, I cannot say about other religions, but anything that is Abrahamic should be the same, life does not begin until birth.

I don't know where you got that idea. Catholics and Baha'is believe that life begins at conception.
And that is not only a religious belief.

Life Begins at Fertilization

The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:

Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

 

[Revoltingest]

Why is it Republicans are anti and Democrats ok with abortion?
I thought both camps would have backers of each side. I do not understand why there is a political divide.

There is more diversity of views than
news media would make it seem.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know older kids used to be babies once.

You want people to pump out babies for adoptive families,

I do not want people to pump out babies for adoptive families. When did I ever say that?
I only ever said that all newborns get adopted by families that want them.

meanwhile there are thousands of unwanted kids in the foster care system as it is, all needing homes. But everyone wants babies so let's force people to carry babies they don't want to term so these people who can't bring themselves to adopt older kids can be happy with a newborn baby. Ugh.

Adopt a child - Children’s Aid Foundation of Canada

I do not see anything wrong with wanting to adopt a newborn if one has the money to afford it.
If I was going to adopt I would want a newborn as not everyone can deal with the potential problems that come with adopting older children. I mean they are up for adoption for a reason.

How many older kids cannot get adopted is a red herring.
If women want to have an abortion and not carry a child to term why not just be honest about it? You do not need to make excuses or rationalizations.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do not want people to pump out babies for adoptive families. When did I ever say that?
I only ever said that all newborns get adopted by families that want them.

I do not see anything wrong with wanting to adopt a newborn if one has the money to afford it.
If I was going to adopt I would want a newborn as not everyone can deal with the potential problems that come with adopting older children. I mean they are up for adoption for a reason.

How many older kids cannot get adopted is a red herring.
If women want to have an abortion and not carry a child to term why not just be honest about it? You do not need to make excuses or rationalizations.

My point is that the world is already full of unwanted children. Why add more?
I mean, do we really care about human life, or just the lives of zygotes and newborns?

 

[Trailblazer]

My point is that the world is already full of unwanted children. Why add more?
I mean, do we really care about human life, or just the lives of zygotes and newborns?

And my point was that newborns are always wanted by many families.
What difference do you think it would make if there were more newborns available for adoption?
Do you think less older children would get adopted out?

But none of this is really relevant. All that is relevant is whether life begins at conception and if it does abortion is choosing to take a human life that could have been lived.

 

[metis]

Republicans have over decades used abortion as what we call a "wedge issue", thus claiming to be "pro-life" even though they in general are not pro-life on some other issues, such as capital punishment, climate change, income disparity, healthcare, etc.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well, this is genius: Chuck Schumer and the Democrats in the Senate are going to bring a vote to the Senate floor on a law permitting women to choose abortion. Why is this genius? Because Republicans are going to have to stand up, vote "NO," and then go home and face their electorate, or they are going to have to stand up, vote "YES," and then go home and face their Trump and MAGA base.

And remember, Americans favor women's right to choose by 2 to 1 (including 38% of Republicans). Will this impact the mid-terms? I rather suspect it might.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know where you got that idea. Catholics and Baha'is believe that life begins at conception.
And that is not only a religious belief.

Life Begins at Fertilization

The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:

Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

When then and not the sperm and ova? When then and not after the blastocyte (which is only a a cluster of several cells) becomes an embryo? When then amd not upon birth, when the numerous and many variables and obstacles that frequently terminate a pregnancy naturally have been cleared?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And remember, Americans favor women's right to choose by 2 to 1 (including 38% of Republicans). Will this impact the mid-terms? I rather suspect it might.

It may very well as Republicans have intentionally played foul to stack the courts to make this happen. It shows that clearly to Republicans the ends justify the means, amd they will lie, cheat and steal to accomplish it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It may very well as Republicans have intentionally played foul to stack the courts to make this happen. It shows that clearly to Republicans the ends justify the means, amd they will lie, cheat and steal to accomplish it.

Of course, you and I have always known that -- but I strongly think that the more people who actually get that, the less likely the Republicans are to really turn over both houses.

 

[Trailblazer]

When then and not the sperm and ova? When then and not after the blastocyte (which is only a a cluster of several cells) becomes an embryo? When then and not upon birth, when the numerous and many variables and obstacles that frequently terminate a pregnancy naturally have been cleared?

I don't know the answer to those questions because I am not a scientist.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I am all for another way to end unwanted pregnancies but I do not see abortion as the solution.
The only solutions are universal and better birth control or abstinence.

When puberty and marriage are within a few years of each other, as in the past, instead of 15-20 years apart, maybe we can talk about abstinence. Until then, not gonna happen.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know the answer to those questions because I am not a scientist.

Then how can you be sure life begins at conception? Just looking at pregnancy, the moment of conception is a combined sperm and ovum, and then for several days--if implantation is successful (most the time it isn't)--it's just a lump of cells that haven't even been "programmed" to become anything specific (and it is these cells that are prized for stem cell research because they can become any cell in the body at this point). And then for awhile we look kind of like a tadpole (we even have something like gills in the womb). And what most people claim is the heartbeat early on is not the heartbeat because that stuff hasn't developed yet. And then the fetus starts to look more like a person, but things like self awareness don't even happen until after birth.

 

[Trailblazer]

When puberty and marriage are within a few years of each other, as in the past, instead of 15-20 years apart, maybe we can talk about abstinence. Until then, not gonna happen.

Sadly, probably not even then.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sadly, probably not even then.

Then it appears that a ban on abortions would be immoral.