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Paganism - satanic or not?

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
I know many Satanists who would disagree with you. I used to moderate a Pagan website and was once a Pagan myself.

They joined the forum and considered themselves Pagan.

So, how about Luciferian? Pagan or not?

I know you are speaking to Draka but I thought I would point out that I mentioned Neo-Satanists in my post and that is what you are talking about. Neo-Satanists aren't classical Satanists any more than Wiccians are classical Pagans. Some forms of Neo-Satanists have a syncretic view of religion and have combined aspects of paganism into what was once an exclusively Abrahamic religion. So while you are correct in saying that some Neo-Satanists have Pagan aspects you can not say that Satanism is Paganism.
 
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Draka

Wonder Woman
I know many Satanists who would disagree with you. I used to moderate a Pagan website and was once a Pagan myself.

They joined the forum and considered themselves Pagan.

So, how about Luciferian? Pagan or not?

I'll repeat this for you because you've obviously missed it. Those who actually worship the Abrahamic entity of "Satan" are not Pagans. If anything, as Trey said, Satanism in it's theistic form, is an Abrahamic religion just like Christianity or Islam or Judaism. It falls out of that pantheon. Since what is considered "Pagan" is anything that is not an Abrahamic faith, then it would stand to reason that Satanism is not Pagan.

As for Luciferianism, whether or not it would be Pagan would depend on the tradition of it, whether it was attached to the Christian mythological ideas or the Greek mythological ideas.

No matter which way you want to look at it though, worship of an Abrahamic entity makes for an Abrahamic religion...and thus not Pagan.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Here is an example:

Shyanekh Offline
Religion: Dark Pagan/Demonolater
Title:Devil's Advocate
staff.gif

He's free to correct me if I am wrong, but the concept of beings known as demons is not exclusive to Christianity so claiming anything to do with demons does not specifically mean one is not a Pagan of some sort. As to his title, "Devil's Advocate" means one that will argue from an opposing side just to point out other sides of an argument or to show a weakness in said argument. It doesn't necessarily really mean "advocating for the devil". If he really meant it literally then I welcome him correcting me.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I'll repeat this for you because you've obviously missed it. Those who actually worship the Abrahamic entity of "Satan" are not Pagans. If anything, as Trey said, Satanism in it's theistic form, is an Abrahamic religion just like Christianity or Islam or Judaism. It falls out of that pantheon. Since what is considered "Pagan" is anything that is not an Abrahamic faith, then it would stand to reason that Satanism is not Pagan.

As for Luciferianism, whether or not it would be Pagan would depend on the tradition of it, whether it was attached to the Christian mythological ideas or the Greek mythological ideas.

No matter which way you want to look at it though, worship of an Abrahamic entity makes for an Abrahamic religion...and thus not Pagan.

Draka, I'm not debating you, technically your correct. All I am saying is many people consider themselves Pagan that you would disagree with.

I know many Gardner fans who call themselves wiccan. Myself, I think they are goody two shoes P poor excuses for witches, but that is just my opinion. They however believe their religion to be ancient and call themselves Pagans.

My experience with magick required balance of light and dark, (grey magick) to be powerful. I believe a witch that cannot hex cannot heal, but that is just my opinion, but I am far from alone.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Draka, I'm not debating you, technically your correct. All I am saying is many people consider themselves Pagan that you would disagree with.

I know many Gardner fans who call themselves wiccan. Myself, I think they are goody two shoes P poor excuses for witches, but that is just my opinion. They however believe their religion to be ancient and call themselves Pagans.
I think there are a lot of people who are so disillusioned with Christianity and the like that they will claim Paganism and so on just to try to distance themselves, whether they really know what their new religion is or where it stemmed from.

My experience with magick required balance of light and dark, (grey magick) to be powerful. I believe a witch that cannot hex cannot heal, but that is just my opinion, but I am far from alone.
I really don't think labels can be honestly smacked on magic as a whole. "White" and "black" really don't truly exist IMO, it's all "grey". All magic lies with the will and intent of the practitioner. Protective and defensive work is just as important as healing after something has already gone wrong. There is a difference between setting up protection magic that may cause a person out to harm you to receive their own harm, and actually setting out to harm someone just because you're feeling extra moody one day. If people don't realize the full array of what they can do and still adhere to their religion's principles (such as the Wiccan "harm none") then they are truly missing out on what magic can really accomplish.
 

eccentricjdo

Eclectic Intelectual
witchcraft is the same as sorcery

its satanic because it calls on the power of the demons in casting spells. demonic/satanic is the same thing...any religion that calls on the power of satan to accomplish its tasks is 'satanic'.... it not 'mother nature' pagans are worshiping.

Pegg, look up "logical fallacies" on Wikipedia. You're employing "reducto ad adsurdum".

Of course, you JW's will probably disregard Wikipedia as "Babylon" -- except, of course, when Wikipedia content supports what you say.

(Yes, I regularly read the Watchtower, and it's entirely based on fallacies [at least that would the case, but Babylon invented the concept of fallacies, right? Which is why the concept is only valid in relation to criticizing non JW's!])
 

eccentricjdo

Eclectic Intelectual
any entity that promotes the casting of evil spells on others is not a good spirit.

Anyway, the only spiritual entities that exist are the ones that God created. they are the angels, 1/3 of who rebelled and were cast out of heaven and these are the ones that promote all forms of false religions.



so what is the casting of spells? Do you think that rats tails and frogs legs actually hold magical power???

Practically none of us use rats' tails and frogs' legs; objects naturally have no inherent magickal properties. That you made such a statement, reveals that your knowledge of the occult comes from faery tales and cheesy horror flicks. You JW's really do socially isolate yourselves from the rest of the world. And if you guys are so right about things, then why do you have to convince others? I you're so right about things, then why does anyone need to be "witnessed" to? Oops, I forgot -- they're ruled by Satan! Which means they're wrong no matter what. Their lack of sharing in your beliefs proves the reality-corresponce of your beliefs!

Reducto ad absurdum!
Hallelujah!
Amen!

That being said, spells, and, more generally, magick, is simply ritualised psychodrama that gets your more "spiritual" aspect to work and to effect changes in the world. As a Pagan, I consider it more than just good advice, to allow oneself to, as objectively as one is capable (and then some), to consider the ("earthly") consequences of the changes that you intend to effect.

Moreover, to be consistent with my above definition, babtism is a consecration spell (er, ceremony), exoricism is a banishment spell (er, rite [the participants presume, not request, that the rite will 'work' if done correctly and with the right intentions), "transubstantiation" is an invocation spell ("trancendental" magick, as the Catholic priests classify it [I got one of them to admit it]), dedication of a sanctuary (e.g., a Kingdom Hall) is a consecration spell (er, praying over the building, "asking" Jehovah's blessing, when you are, in reality, presuming that he will bless the site [which is a very occult-like attitude towards Jehovah]), the laying on of hands is an empowerment spell (because the participants actually presume that the power and wisdom of God's Spirit will be bestowed on the person to be blessed), etc., ad nauseum
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Reverend Rick you name-dropper you ;)

Ok, I'll post a few of my own thoughts on the topic which may or may not coincide with the views of other Pagans, Satanists and folks in between, so prepare yourselves for a bit of an essay.

Firstly it's worth mentioning that possibly the most common variation of Satanism is atheistic/autotheistic Satanism. To give folks a very brief rundown, these folks don't believe in a literal Satan, but they do view him as both a potent symbol and a worthy figure to emulate. You'd be hard pressed to call this type of Satanist "Pagan" without using an incredibly outdated definition of the word.

Now theistic Satanists will only very rarely believe in and worship a malevolent Biblical demi-god. Those that do, usually tend to be your stereotypical rebellious teens who go into it for shock value or because they feel alienated by a primarily Christian society. Some of these will go on to either theistic or atheistic Satanism of a more mature variety as they get older and begin to calm down, some will abandon Satanism entirely and a few will stay that way long into adulthood.
I would suggest that this particular form of Satanism is the closest you get to what some call "inverted Christianity" and could possibly be considered Abrahamic as Draka mentioned as it often draws largely upon Christian ideas of Satan. I would suggest though that it tends to also draw on heavy metal imagery as much as, if not more than, Christian ideas about evil.

Some theistic Satanists have a single deity that they refer to as Satan, though I imagine these are actually a minority among theistic Satanists. With the exception of those I mentioned previously, the Satan these folks worship has little in common with the Biblical deity or is at least viewed more in terms of his positive attributes (encouraging freedom, self awareness, earthly pleasure etc).

In my experience, most theistic Satanists appear to be polytheistic or henotheistic. Satan may or may not be the head of the pantheon, but other gods/demons are also invoked. Demonolatry largely falls into this category and is in my opinion, the halfway point between Satanism and Neo-Paganism. Some Demonolaters lean more towards Satanist and some more towards Pagan. Whether we call ourselves Pagan, Satanist or Demonolater seems to be largely down to personal taste and mood.

Considering Demonolatry and many forms of theistic Satanism are polytheistic it seems that some definitions of "Pagan" fit quite well. Of course if we take Pagan to mean "nature based religion" it rules some Satanists out, but by no means all and if we take a reconstructionist view of "Pagan" it again rules some Satanists out, but by no means all.

So I would say that no, Paganism isn't Satanism and Satanism isn't always Paganism, but there is a definite crossover point with regards to certain branches of theistic Satanism. Of course I should probably point out that neither Pagans nor Satanists are particularly fond of sacrificing babies ;)

Anyhoo, just to cover your post here Draka:

He's free to correct me if I am wrong, but the concept of beings known as demons is not exclusive to Christianity so claiming anything to do with demons does not specifically mean one is not a Pagan of some sort. As to his title, "Devil's Advocate" means one that will argue from an opposing side just to point out other sides of an argument or to show a weakness in said argument. It doesn't necessarily really mean "advocating for the devil". If he really meant it literally then I welcome him correcting me.

You're right to say that Demons aren't solely Christian and I've yet to encounter a Demonolater who views them as malevolent fallen angels. In fact if you look up the etymology of the word "Demon" you'll encounter the phrases "Divine Power", "Guiding Spirit" and "Intelligent Being" among the historical definitions of the word. It's true that many Demonolaters are also Satanists and that many of the demonic names we use are straight out of the lesser key of Solomon. The reasons for this vary between practitioners and as I mentioned earlier, some lean more towards Satanist/Pagan than others.

Personally I probably fall closer to Pagan, though I'm willing to use Satan and Devil in my vocabulary depending on my mood and intent. I also view the names of deities as being archetypal rather than fixed, so I'm equally happy invoking Asmodeus as I am invoking Aphrodite. Like I say, I fall somewhere in a grey area between Satanist and Pagan.

"Devil's Advocate" is a bit of a pun since I fall under both the meanings you mentioned. I'll happily take part in a debate I have no real passion about just to hone my debating skills and yet I also support "The Devil". Not the fallen angel of Christian Mythology mind you, but the mass of cultural fears, taboos and repressed desires that I see as our modern day Satan.


To be honest I could write pages on this topic, so if anybody's unsure of anything I've said feel free to ask and I'd be more than happy to clarify :)
 
Technically, every religion that comes away from the worship of the One True God (ie the God of Abraham) has fallen into a form of satanism. They have chosen a path of falsehood, no matter how far away from the straight path, as opposed to the One Straight Path.

Without a doubt, there are many paths of falsehood, some may be very close to the correct belief. But there is only One Truth.

You can draw a straight line on a piece of paper, and draw lines coming off it. Each of those lines coming off has a devil calling to misguidance. One devil may call to forniation, one to stealing one to other actions which are wrong.
Other devils may call to different beliefs. Some may call to belief in multiple Gods. Some may call to no God. Some may call to this or that, but without a doubt, only the straight one path is the religion that God is pleased with.

The Devil is an open enemy to man. He has hatred for Adam and his offspring. and he will do what he can to misguide man, by whispering, by promoting certain desires and wants. Misguiding man via worldly possesions etc.

We simply need to seek refuge in God from the Evil of Satan, the Cursed. and put our trust in the One God, the Creator, because it is ultimately only by His help that we can remain on the path of God, as opposed to any one of the many many paths of satan
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Shyanekh, it appears that we are actually on the same page, along with Trey. The Satanism you speak of seems more of a "Neo-Satanism". Where the term "Satanism" is more of adopted symbolatry than actual strict belief and worship of the Christian entity known as "Satan".

Thing is, it is the ones who actually believe in this entity that are Christian that seem to want to classify actual worship of said entity as Pagan in effort to distance themselves from him while simultaneously "demonizing" Pagans as a whole. Which I find absurd because it's pretty much two sides of the same coin. It's like if one person worships Zeus and another worships Hades. They both subscribe to Greek mythology and can't really be separated into two completely different religious camps. It's like these Christians want to admit to the existence of "Satan", which as an entity belongs to their religion, yet want to try to classify his worship and following as something completely outside their religion. It makes no logical sense whatsoever. See what I'm saying?
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Technically, every religion that comes away from the worship of the One True God (ie the God of Abraham) has fallen into a form of satanism. They have chosen a path of falsehood, no matter how far away from the straight path, as opposed to the One Straight Path.

Without a doubt, there are many paths of falsehood, some may be very close to the correct belief. But there is only One Truth.

You can draw a straight line on a piece of paper, and draw lines coming off it. Each of those lines coming off has a devil calling to misguidance. One devil may call to forniation, one to stealing one to other actions which are wrong.
Other devils may call to different beliefs. Some may call to belief in multiple Gods. Some may call to no God. Some may call to this or that, but without a doubt, only the straight one path is the religion that God is pleased with.

The Devil is an open enemy to man. He has hatred for Adam and his offspring. and he will do what he can to misguide man, by whispering, by promoting certain desires and wants. Misguiding man via worldly possesions etc.

We simply need to seek refuge in God from the Evil of Satan, the Cursed. and put our trust in the One God, the Creator, because it is ultimately only by His help that we can remain on the path of God, as opposed to any one of the many many paths of satan

Ahem, Satan belongs to Christianity and you can keep him. All other paths are not satanic, as the vast majority of religions in the world do not even believe in it. Besides, if all other paths were really of "Satan" they would do no good in the world, and that simply isn't the case. Especially when Christianity can do far more harm than so many of these supposedly "satanic" religions. :rolleyes:
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Technically, every religion that comes away from the worship of the One True God (ie the God of Abraham) has fallen into a form of satanism. They have chosen a path of falsehood, no matter how far away from the straight path, as opposed to the One Straight Path.

Without a doubt, there are many paths of falsehood, some may be very close to the correct belief. But there is only One Truth.

You can draw a straight line on a piece of paper, and draw lines coming off it. Each of those lines coming off has a devil calling to misguidance. One devil may call to forniation, one to stealing one to other actions which are wrong.
Other devils may call to different beliefs. Some may call to belief in multiple Gods. Some may call to no God. Some may call to this or that, but without a doubt, only the straight one path is the religion that God is pleased with.

The Devil is an open enemy to man. He has hatred for Adam and his offspring. and he will do what he can to misguide man, by whispering, by promoting certain desires and wants. Misguiding man via worldly possesions etc.

We simply need to seek refuge in God from the Evil of Satan, the Cursed. and put our trust in the One God, the Creator, because it is ultimately only by His help that we can remain on the path of God, as opposed to any one of the many many paths of satan

Admitting their is more than one religion is enough to lead me to a question. Are you sure yours is that One Straight Path? I've been out and about and there seems to be more than one path to and from any point. Even paths that appear to lead no where do in fact go somewhere. And even paths that seem right at the time are a bad idea. So, you got The One?
 
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Draka

Wonder Woman
Admitting their is more than one religion is enough to lead me to a question. Are you sure yours is that One Straight Path? I've been out and about and there seems to be more than one path to and from any point. Even paths that appear to lead no where do in fact go somewhere. And even paths that seem right at the time are a bad idea. So, you got The One?
Not only that, but sometimes many paths can lead to the same place. Like the neighborhood I grew up in. It kind of sits on the edge of the town and has only a couple roads leading into it, but several little branching roads within it. So if you come in one way, you have your choice of several different roads to take while in the neighborhood to get to the road out. Different paths...same destination. ;)
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Not only that, but sometimes many paths can lead to the same place. Like the neighborhood I grew up in. It kind of sits on the edge of the town and has only a couple roads leading into it, but several little branching roads within it. So if you come in one way, you have your choice of several different roads to take while in the neighborhood to get to the road out. Different paths...same destination. ;)

I took a different off ramp because of construction this morning. It makes me think. Sometimes people are on the same road all for different reasons and different destinations. ;)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
You can draw a straight line on a piece of paper, and draw lines coming off it.

1-Straight lines are not always the best way to come from point A to point B. If the straight line involves a mountain and you are on feet, you probably would like to go around it.

2- Your misconception also comes from the place that different humans are in different places of the map. So for some, they gotta cross buddhism if they are to go to God in a straight line. Some have to cross humanist atheism. Some´s straight lines involve no labeled religions.

3- How can you know YOUR faith doesn´t come from a demon? They say Satan took a nice amount of beauty with him to Hell. ;)


One devil may call to forniation, one to stealing one to other actions which are wrong.Other devils may call to different beliefs.

You forgot the self-righteousness devil. I wonder why...
 
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Proffie

New Member
Oijoijoijoijoi, and I am nowhere nearer to a solution to my problem or opinion, except one member saying that I should probably become a better parent/human being......

Let's leave it at that then.

Thanks to all.
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Some may call to belief in multiple Gods. Some may call to no God.
Speaking for myself, my faith existed long before yours, and has nothing at all to do with your subservient Satan, whom your God allows. Since anything not of you, must be evil, look to the hatred in your own hearts before saying what your Satan may have placed in someone else's.

'Satan' is merely the embodiment of the excuse for the idea that hate is acceptable. Be a better man.
 
I apologise if I am askinga bout something that has been already discussed on this forum; I am new to the forum and need some advice please.

My daughter, who as raised my me in a good and Christian like way in the christian faith, has converted to and married a Paganist. They openly admit believing in fairies, spells, magic, they have books about voodoo and magic in their rooms, they have a humal skull (hope not real!) in their room, everyday she places "ness ness" messages on her Blackberry BBM status, her husband has no problem in sleeping with other women and she accepts this, they both smoke and drink like mad.

My daughter has herself admitted that she has put spells on people, and what worries me is that they are not truthful in their daily living, but they lie.....

My daughter is the man's 3rd wife, and he is only 30 years old, with a small child with each of his previous wives. Now my daughter has a very close relationship with the previous wife, to the extent that the previous wife even sleeps over at their house..... a very, very bad situation as they all drink and smoke...

Yet, when I confront them, they tell me that, even though they are Pagans, they pray to God, they believe in Jesus Christ, and they read the Bible as we know it.

Please help me, as far as I am concerned, Paganism is affiliated to Satanism in some or other way - or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thank you for affording me the opportunity to interact with you on this forum!
Paganism is not in and of itself satanic. Many pagans believe in and worship Nature, and the power of the energies inherent in Nature. THey have rituals and ceremonies around importatnt dates relating to harvest and the seasons -many christian practices were once pagan which I'm sure you know such as the yule log, christmas tree etc., IT sounds like your daughter is trying on a new role. Her Husband-not so much-HE goes for young women as he can manipulate him. From long experience over children going in ways you don't want them to go-All you can do is fuly understand<- fully-that your job of direct input raising her-is doen- what you get to do now is only let her know that whatever hapens you are there for her, anytime 24/7. that you love her. you can say once-you are concenred you can mimic facial expressions that express your worry-but always remember don't cross the line- as my mother in law said to me- this man will keep doind what got him divorced 3x previous, and your daighter will catch on. If you do have an oppoetunutiy from her to ask about plans for children as in-don't!-he can't pay for the three he has. YEs this isin cestuous meaning ex wives open marriage-but you raised her within herself she knows what is right and wrong many young peeps try on several lifestyles trying to figure out not only who they are-also who they are not- believe me she is not able to be actively believing in Jesus in front of this man. Jesus and God will never leave her-ever-
Present her with love for her, demonstrate love of the Lord by allowing him in your house-groan-but do it- never accuse them of satanism as you are only feeding his "us against them" attitude-it's how he isolates these women including your daughter. Most important-don't you become an isolation factor-the enemy of my enemy is my friend-be her ally-she will return <3 God Bless-these are the heartbreak moments of parenthood- Believe in yourself-she knows <3 ~~peace~n~love~n~hope~~pray to God for strength and help-you'll get it
 
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