Palestianian atheist arrested

[Meow Mix]

again, says who? basic human rights? what makes you think they are perfect and why do you think i must accept it?

.

You don't have to agree with it but if you take away someone's rights you are an oppressor and tyrant. If you're okay with that, then fine. But I just hope you never ever come into power. (If that's hypothetically the case that you would not respect freedom of expression, I mean)

We can even still be pals, I just hope you never have power over me I don't play nice with oppressors that try to destroy my rights.

Course that's all hypothetical. It's sort of like if I believed Islam should be outlawed with the force of law behind the ban... I'm sure you'd hope that I would never rise to power in such a scenario. But that isn't the case. In my hypothetical country, you'd have nothing to worry about. From the way you've been flirting with abandoning freedom of expression though, I might be afraid to live in your hypothetical country.

 

[.lava]

obviously basic human rights is not basic at all. it does not answer needs of Muslims. what a surprise! perhabs it should be taken as normal since Western authorities don't even consider Muslims to be human. you can insult and humiliate anything and anyone you want in your nation but this filth should not enter our nations. no Muslim should join this war on Islam in the name of freedom. this is not freedom. we don't need to act shallow or praise shallowness to become better people or freer people. we do it our way and we don't need Western to approve us. they do their job. their job is to steal and destroy and that' exactly what they are doing in Muslim nations. as Western army bomb and kill Muslims everyday, as their 'some' soldiers rape Muslim women and children, as their firms steal resources of Muslims; you here invite us to be OK with insulting Allah and its Prophets. two words: bite me

.

 

[Meow Mix]

obviously basic human rights is not basic at all. it does not answer needs of Muslims. what a surprise! perhabs it should be taken as normal since Western authorities don't even consider Muslims to be human. you can insult and humiliate anything and anyone you want in your nation but this filth should not enter our nations. no Muslim should join this war on Islam in the name of freedom. this is not freedom. we don't need to act shallow or praise shallowness to become better people or freer people. we do it our way and we don't need Western to approve us. they do their job. their job is to steal and destroy and that' exactly what they are doing in Muslim nations. as Western army bomb and kill Muslims everyday, as their 'some' soldiers rape Muslim women and children, as their firms steal resources of Muslims; you here invite us to be OK with insulting Allah and its Prophets. two words: bite me

Wow, you are taking this vastly out of context.

There is no war on Islam in the name of freedom. Ask Abibi or other American Muslims whether they're "at war" with our government or if they're free to do everything they want for their religion.

Freedom of expression isn't about being shallow; you again confuse freedom of expression by assuming that people only want it to be able to insult and spit on each other. That isn't true.

Practically none of us over here support the war, and the war was voted for under false pretenses (i.e., we were LIED to by our leaders). Every day people are outraged when we hear about bombs that killed civilians over there.

But you are suggesting oppression. That is just as evil as all these things you denounce. If you are an oppressor, then you are just as wicked as these things you look down on. Surely that isn't the right path to take?!

 

[jarofthoughts]

Those are some nice opinions. Happy to make acquaintance.

No, it is the only way progress can be made. Once we make it illegal to criticise something, be it a religion, an idea or an organisation, we are doing a very silly thing indeed.

I'm not a fan of deviating that far from the OP. I was merely trying to stress the difference in tone the source from the OP was compared to what others were portraying it as. That was as far as I was going with the Propaganja yo.

If you want to debate evidence for Islam's central claim, you have the option to make a new topic.

I do not want to debate the existence of god(s), as I am very well aware that there is no evidence to support it. My point was rather to show you that what you consider to be "truth" might not be someone else's "truth". To some people it might be just as "true" that Islam is evil as it is for you that it is not.

 

[.lava]

Freedom of expression isn't about being shallow; you again confuse freedom of expression by assuming that people only want it to be able to insult and spit on each other. That isn't true.

you're still being told lie every single day.

it is not being shallow. so are we going to become saints if we insult beliefs? we think it is a sin and you are inviting Muslims to be OK with commiting sin. what's there you don't get? you want to commit sin, fine. it is not my problem. i am not saying i don't care what happens to you. sure i want you to be happy but stop trying to expose us what runs into your veins. that's called Western values and whatever starts with the word Western. we have different values and we care for them and we admire people who acts noble and kind. we do not look upon people who insults others. we don't follow that kind of people. you are defending the right of insulting. that's exactly what you're doing in the name of freedom of speech. you talk about basic human rights. those basics are not for Muslims. those basics are not written by people like us. it is product of your society and it answer your needs. live with them, i don't mind. when i visit your nations i would show respect to your values. you can't respect ours then don't visit our nations. that simple, Meow Mix. seeing and reading all of this stuff.... some people mostly atheists looking down upon our nations, our Muslims brothers and sisters as if they were perfect human being s from a perfectly happy culture and telling us what's wrong with us. i admit there are wrong doings in our nations, that's true. but we owe every single goodness in our nations to our values. in Turkey you'd see many young people, teenagers would leave their seats in buses and give to older people. do you know why? because they are raised by those values. we are not going to abandone them, never. you don't have to like it; we are not trying to make you happy anyway. you may write dozens of pages to find another way to make me see what you see and i do respect your intention. i know what you are. you're good. so am i, Meow Mix. the only difference is our beliefs. my belief says 'don't mock the divine'. not that Divine needs it. basically mocking and insulting divine is equal damaging myself. an atheist do not have to get it. you don't even believe in God and of course insulting God makes no sense to you. you don't believe it. well, we do. we believe in hell and heaven. for Muslims insulting Allah for instance, well i can't think of anything worse actually. these are facts for Muslims. you want to change the facts? you can't

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[Autodidact]

obviously basic human rights is not basic at all. it does not answer needs of Muslims.

Read over what you said here, and consider the implications. Are you saying that Islam and basic human rights are incompatible?
Muslims are human beings. Therefore, basic human rights are for Muslims and everyone else. Muslims, and non-Muslims, should have the same right to free speech, the same right to express their opinions, whether controversial or not.

what a surprise! perhabs it should be taken as normal since Western authorities don't even consider Muslims to be human.

What bosh! Where do you get this tripe? In any case, do you consider human rights to be something "western?"

you can insult and humiliate anything and anyone you want in your nation but this filth should not enter our nations. no Muslim should join this war on Islam in the name of freedom. this is not freedom. we don't need to act shallow or praise shallowness to become better people or freer people. we do it our way and we don't need Western to approve us. they do their job. their job is to steal and destroy and that' exactly what they are doing in Muslim nations. as Western army bomb and kill Muslims everyday, as their 'some' soldiers rape Muslim women and children, as their firms steal resources of Muslims; you here invite us to be OK with insulting Allah and its Prophets. two words: bite me

I know it's hard for you, but can you try to stay on topic? This is about how the Palestinian authority is treating a Palestinian.

So, do you agree or disagree with what the Palestinian authority did here?

 

[.lava]

no, i am saying if basic human rights permits people to insult divine then basic human rights should change its name into BASIC WESTERN HUMAN RIGHTS because it does not answer needs of entire humanity, obviously. in other words it is not complete, not perfect, not for 'human'...of course for that you must accept Muslims as human as well. but, of course, don't try so hard

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[Midnight Pete]

Protected from what? Discrimination? Not sure what you're getting at here.

It sounds like you're trying to draw an equivalent between people who advocate against gay rights and people who advocate against Islam. But no one here is suggesting that the former group be locked up or killed, so what is the relevance?

I'm just trying to expose some hypocrisy.

 

[jarofthoughts]

obviously basic human rights is not basic at all. it does not answer needs of Muslims.

And which needs would that be?

what a surprise! perhabs it should be taken as normal since Western authorities don't even consider Muslims to be human.

Sources to back that claim up please.

you can insult and humiliate anything and anyone you want in your nation but this filth should not enter our nations.

You would rather censor and ban other people's opinions?

no Muslim should join this war on Islam in the name of freedom. this is not freedom.

I'm sure you won't agree with this but freedom is vastly more important than Islam. People need to have a choice and for that choice to be real you cannot ban certain points of view from the discourse.

we don't need to act shallow or praise shallowness to become better people or freer people.

Define 'shallow'.

we do it our way and we don't need Western to approve us.

Yes you do. At least if you want anything to do with the Western society. If you do not, well, good luck to you.

they do their job. their job is to steal and destroy and that' exactly what they are doing in Muslim nations.

What exactly are you referring to here?

as Western army bomb and kill Muslims everyday, as their 'some' soldiers rape Muslim women and children, as their firms steal resources of Muslims;

Again, examples of what you mean would be appreciated. If you are referring to the situation in Iraq, that is by no means a situation or a set of actions that is backed by "Western Society". Western Society is not just the US, and in all fairness, many Americans strongly opposed the Iraq invasion as well.

you here invite us to be OK with insulting Allah and its Prophets.

Actually, I'm more telling you how it is and how it is going to be rather than inviting you. At the moment there is a rising dissent towards immigration, particularly against Muslim immigrants in most Western countries, and whether you like it or not, at the moment the US and Europe -are- calling the shots in the world. Admittedly China and India are somewhat on the rise and Russia might play a role some time in the future, but at the moment the West, that is the US and Europe, pretty much decides how it will be. So if the Muslim nations wish to partake on the international stage in any meaningful way they better play nice.
Believe me when I say that the "free pass" that Islamic groups have gotten in the past won't last and we already see in countries like Denmark, France, England, the Netherlands and the US that people's sympathy is disappearing at an alarming rate.

I'm not saying that I think that this is right or that I in any way support this state of affairs, but that is how it is, both from an economic and from a military point of view.

For progress to take place every and any point of view must be permissible. That does not mean that every point of view is valid or even close to correct, but the way to deal with that is to confront these points of view and show them and the world why they are faulty rather than banning them or reacting with violence.

two words: bite me.

No thanks. I already had dinner.

 

[Autodidact]

no, i am saying if basic human rights permits people to insult divine

Not the divine, .lava, but that which you consider divine. In Malaysia there was a sect that considered a giant pink teapot divine.

then basic human rights should change its name into BASIC WESTERN HUMAN RIGHTS because it does not answer needs of entire humanity,

Don't you want Muslims to have the right to criticize other people's religions? What about all the Muslim apologists all over the internet arguing that Jesus is not divine. Should they have that right? Or is it only Islam that needs this special protection? If so, why?

obviously. in other words it is not complete, not perfect, not for 'human'...of course for that you must accept Muslims as human as well. but, of course, don't try so hard

Human experience has been that in fact complete freedom of speech is best for everyone, Muslim and not. It provides an equal atmosphere where everyone can share their views, those who revere Muhammad, and those who despise him, so everyone can make up their own minds on the subject. We have found that this system protects everyone's rights--including yours.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm just trying to expose some hypocrisy.

How's that working for you?

You're trying to argue that if I disagree with opponents of gay rights then I should support jailing Palestinian atheists, to be consistent?

 

[.lava]

Not the divine, .lava, but that which you consider divine.

sure it is divine and no, not just me. over a billion people

.

 

[jarofthoughts]

so are we going to become saints if we insult beliefs?

I have no intention of becoming a saint. And freedom of speech does not mean that everyone will go out and insult other people's beliefs, but it -does- mean that they can. Big difference.

we think it is a sin and you are inviting Muslims to be OK with commiting sin.

I am inviting every Muslim to decide for themselves what they consider to be a sin and to make their own choices, as well as allowing everyone else to do the same.

what's there you don't get? you want to commit sin, fine. it is not my problem. i am not saying i don't care what happens to you. sure i want you to be happy but stop trying to expose us what runs into your veins. that's called Western values and whatever starts with the word Western. we have different values and we care for them and we admire people who acts noble and kind. we do not look upon people who insults others. we don't follow that kind of people.

I live in a country where the freedom of speech is held as one of the highest principles imaginable.
I also happen to live in what can arguably be considered the best country in the world in just about every possible way.
I'd be happy to compare relative success, happiness, safety, education, healthcare, economic growth, and so on and so forth with you any day of the week. A secular society is -not- the way to an unhealthy society. Apparently, it is, in fact, the opposite, if anything.

you are defending the right of insulting. that's exactly what you're doing in the name of freedom of speech.

No. We are actually defending freedom of speech. The fact that some people might get offended or insulted in the process is unfortunate, but expected, and it is a consequence I am fully willing to accept. Even if I am the one being insulted.

you talk about basic human rights. those basics are not for Muslims. those basics are not written by people like us.

Let's see... Some of the most widely accepted rights include: the right to live, to work for anyone, to own property, free speech, safety from violence, protection from the law, fair trial, to be innocent until proven guilty, to be a citizen of a country, to vote, to seek asylum if a country treats you badly, to think freely, to believe and practice the religion a person wants, to peacefully protest (speak against) a government or group, health care, education, not be forced into marriage, and so on and so forth.

These do not apply to Muslims according to you?

when i visit your nations i would show respect to your values. you can't respect ours then don't visit our nations. that simple, Meow Mix.

Actually, it is not that simple. Not by a long shot. Nations are not autonomous entities and they are dependent upon interaction.

but we owe every single goodness in our nations to our values.

So, I guess science and the amenities of modern society has brought you no "goodness" has it? :sarcastic

in Turkey you'd see many young people, teenagers would leave their seats in buses and give to older people. do you know why? because they are raised by those values.

That's great. They do that in Norway as well.

my belief says 'don't mock the divine'. not that Divine needs it. basically mocking and insulting divine is equal damaging myself. an atheist do not have to get it. you don't even believe in God and of course insulting God makes no sense to you. you don't believe it. well, we do. we believe in hell and heaven. for Muslims insulting Allah for instance, well i can't think of anything worse actually. these are facts for Muslims. you want to change the facts? you can't

No idea is above ridicule and criticism.
And it never should be.
What if that idea is wrong?

 

[Meow Mix]

you're still being told lie every single day.

You know what? I don't doubt this. But I know what's right and should be the case, even if my corrupt government doesn't. The *idea* behind my country is I think in the right direction, even if my government doesn't implement it perfectly. Liberty, justice, and the persuit of happiness for ALL -- not for some; looked over by a government that's for the people and governed by the people. That is a good ideal, I think.

it is not being shallow. so are we going to become saints if we insult beliefs? we think it is a sin and you are inviting Muslims to be OK with commiting sin. what's there you don't get?

Muslims don't have to be okay with it, but ruining someone's life with the force of law is oppression. It's evil, is it not a sin to ruin someone's life unnecessarily? I don't know if it is or not in Islam, but it sure sounds evil to me. Do two wrongs make a right? Is it justified to ruin a man's life because he wanted to express his opinion that Mohammed isn't sacred?

I think Auto brought up a good point. Should it therefore also be illegal for Muslims to argue that Jesus isn't sacred -- since that might be offensive and sinful to Christians? Or does that not matter; is it only Muslims that get to enjoy free expression of ideas? It seems like that's what you advocate, and I hope I'm wrong in that perception.

You keep saying "we" as if I'm attacking you, I'm not. I'm attacking oppressors of any stripe, such as the Palestinians who jailed their fellow Palestinian solely for expressing his opinion. I also don't think the argument that it's a "majority Muslim country" works. It's not this atheist's fault that he was born in a majority Muslim country -- is he supposed to abandon his family and friends in order to be somewhere that he has basic human dignity to share his mind?

Isn't a better idea that any country, anywhere -- regardless of its majority population -- allows basic human expression without threatening the force of law and ruining people's lives for simply making an argument online against something they disagree with?

you want to commit sin, fine. it is not my problem. i am not saying i don't care what happens to you. sure i want you to be happy but stop trying to expose us what runs into your veins. that's called Western values and whatever starts with the word Western. we have different values and we care for them and we admire people who acts noble and kind. we do not look upon people who insults others. we don't follow that kind of people. you are defending the right of insulting. that's exactly what you're doing in the name of freedom of speech. you talk about basic human rights. those basics are not for Muslims. those basics are not written by people like us. it is product of your society and it answer your needs. live with them, i don't mind. when i visit your nations i would show respect to your values. you can't respect ours then don't visit our nations. that simple, Meow Mix. seeing and reading all of this stuff.... some people mostly atheists looking down upon our nations, our Muslims brothers and sisters as if they were perfect human being s from a perfectly happy culture and telling us what's wrong with us. i admit there are wrong doings in our nations, that's true. but we owe every single goodness in our nations to our values. in Turkey you'd see many young people, teenagers would leave their seats in buses and give to older people. do you know why? because they are raised by those values. we are not going to abandone them, never. you don't have to like it; we are not trying to make you happy anyway. you may write dozens of pages to find another way to make me see what you see and i do respect your intention. i know what you are. you're good. so am i, Meow Mix. the only difference is our beliefs. my belief says 'don't mock the divine'. not that Divine needs it. basically mocking and insulting divine is equal damaging myself. an atheist do not have to get it. you don't even believe in God and of course insulting God makes no sense to you. you don't believe it. well, we do. we believe in hell and heaven. for Muslims insulting Allah for instance, well i can't think of anything worse actually. these are facts for Muslims. you want to change the facts? you can't

.

But having freedom of expression isn't a "western" thing, it's a human thing. Other Muslims have expressed that this man should have been free to express his opinion even if they find it loathsome; THEY don't seem to find a problem with freedom and Islam: why do you?

I get that "insulting" Allah is deeply personal to Muslims. I do understand that. But when Muslims are having a conversation with Christians and they try to argue that Jesus isn't divine, are they "insulting" the Christian -- or are they trying to make a point for the sake of argument; to get their point across?

Surely you can see that most likely they're just making a point, but surely you can also see that a Christian can become VERY upset about it; just as upset as you might get if someone questioned the authenticity of Mohammed. What's the difference between that and an atheist arguing against Mohammed, really? What is the difference?

I feel sorry for people born in countries who don't have freedom; who don't have the money to leave for a country where they can be free... who might not want to leave behind their friends and families, but who will always be second class citizens because their countrymen don't think that they should have basic human freedoms.

 

[.lava]

And which needs would that be?

some things don't match and they contradict from root. highlight the word 'root'. you know there are sections in Islamic nations. some of their understandings don't mathc either. but this, insulting and mocking God and its Prophets... you certainly could not find any Muslim from any section who's OK with.

Sources to back that claim up please.

http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=tr&sou...=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=b12d1703a4e4f96e

You would rather censor and ban other people's opinions?

i don't have problem with opinions. i have mine too.

I'm sure you won't agree with this but freedom is vastly more important than Islam. People need to have a choice and for that choice to be real you cannot ban certain points of view from the discourse.

IMO Islam is freedom itself.

Define 'shallow'.

anything appears shallow when there is a better way that's not chosen on purpose.

Yes you do. At least if you want anything to do with the Western society. If you do not, well, good luck to you.

i don't know what you mean.

What exactly are you referring to here?

politics and their doings.

Again, examples of what you mean would be appreciated. If you are referring to the situation in Iraq, that is by no means a situation or a set of actions that is backed by "Western Society". Western Society is not just the US, and in all fairness, many Americans strongly opposed the Iraq invasion as well.

they don't mind using oil that comes from Iraq though.

Actually, I'm more telling you how it is and how it is going to be rather than inviting you. At the moment there is a rising dissent towards immigration, particularly against Muslim immigrants in most Western countries, and whether you like it or not, at the moment the US and Europe -are- calling the shots in the world. Admittedly China and India are somewhat on the rise and Russia might play a role some time in the future, but at the moment the West, that is the US and Europe, pretty much decides how it will be. So if the Muslim nations wish to partake on the international stage in any meaningful way they better play nice.

there is no game. there is pillage.

Believe me when I say that the "free pass" that Islamic groups have gotten in the past won't last and we already see in countries like Denmark, France, England, the Netherlands and the US that people's sympathy is disappearing at an alarming rate.

no Muslim is responsible of raising fascism in Europe. that's like blaming rape victim for action of the rapist.

I'm not saying that I think that this is right or that I in any way support this state of affairs, but that is how it is, both from an economic and from a military point of view.

For progress to take place every and any point of view must be permissible. That does not mean that every point of view is valid or even close to correct, but the way to deal with that is to confront these points of view and show them and the world why they are faulty rather than banning them or reacting with violence.

no Muslim here approved violance.

No thanks. I already had dinner.

:biglaugh: be thankful for that cos in case you try to digest me, you'd have some problems which btw that's not what i meant

.

 

[.lava]

But having freedom of expression isn't a "western" thing, it's a human thing.

of course. i agree 100%. but the definition is Western. definition is occured by its limits. that limit is decided by non-Muslims in West side.

PS: sorry for not responding the rest. i am a little tired

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

.lava -- Do you think the punishment of life imprisonment is appropriate for this crime? This man's entire life is ruined. And what is the benefit? It won't make him Muslim. It won't take back the things he said. The people he offended will still be offended. So in this case isn't the "cure" worse than the "disease"?



.lava I apologize if you already answered this question, there are too many posts for me to completely keep up with this thread! I remember you said something about banishment ... ?

 

[Meow Mix]

of course. i agree 100%. but the definition is Western. definition is occured by its limits. that limit is decided by non-Muslims in West side.

PS: sorry for not responding the rest. i am a little tired

No problem re: being tired.

But I raised an argument you've never really responded to on setting a limit between free expression and insult. How do we tell the difference?

1) Muslim explaining to a Christian that Jesus is not divine. Free expression or insult? Some Christians can be just as upset over the implication as a Muslim would be about Mohammed being questioned, agreed?

2) Christian explaining to a Muslim that Mohammed is not divine. Free expression or insult?

3) Atheist explaining to a Muslim that Mohammed is not divine. Free expression or insult?

And so on. Sounds like in a country you would run, all discussion would be banned if you are going to limit anything that's even potentially "insulting." I would be afraid to even say anything for fear that someone would be insulted and I'd be dragged away, my life ruined and in chains!

 

[England my lionheart]

Just how western do you think Human rights are Lava,hereare the countries that signed the 1948 version:

Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Burma, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, India, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Siam, Sweden, Syria, Turkey,United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, and Venezuela. The following eight member states abstained: Belorussia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, South Africa, the USSR, and Yugoslavia.

 

[Meow Mix]

.lava -- Do you think the punishment of life imprisonment is appropriate for this crime? This man's entire life is ruined. And what is the benefit? It won't make him Muslim. It won't take back the things he said. The people he offended will still be offended. So in this case isn't the "cure" worse than the "disease"?



.lava I apologize if you already answered this question, there are too many posts for me to completely keep up with this thread! I remember you said something about banishment ... ?

Not to speak for .Lava. but she did say life in prison was harsh if I remember right.

I'm still trying to figure out under what circumstances people should be punished, and how they should be punished, according to what standard of what "insulting" is.