• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Palestianian atheist arrested

Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Abibi said:
Interesting that your pictures are all irrevocably examples of middle income children from the West. I'm sorry but the point you are trying to make is lost on me.

It is a fact that individuals commonly did start families at this age.
Click to expand...
(1) So you say. I'm doubtful, and await your neutral evidence, not outrageous claims from Muslim apologists. (2) If true, that would not make it right.
This is what it is. They were raised and prepared for that fact. Stating that you can't imagine a nine year old raising a family is not surprising and really just pointless. Our society doesn't raise individuals in that manner and so you cannot imagine such an example to exist. It is not my problem if you cannot see past your own cultural bias, but the fact is people were ready to make their own life choices at this age.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that cultural bias that opposes sex with children. So arbitrary.

Especially considering that the life expectancy was around thirty five years old in that time.
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with the price of falafel in Marrakesh?
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
Your claim is that in the 7th century it was common for 9-year old girls to get pregnant? And you think that's O.K.? Was time somehow compressed then? What evidence do you have for this odd claim?
Click to expand...

Why is it wrong for a person to start a family when they are, statistically, between a third and a fourth of their life. It is pretty common now, it is pretty common then. Terms like "little girl" are by definition arbitrary and misleading as well as confined to the culture in which the term is used. If vague generalities are the order of this thread, I'm pretty much done with this discussion.
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
No, but Muhammad is by many Muslims considered to be a "perfect person" who is wholly moral and an example to be followed, and apparently he thought having sex with 9 year olds was a-ok, something that is used by some Muslims to justify child brides and the like.
Click to expand...

Sure a nine year old marrying in ancient Arabia is fine. Taking that example and applying to today's world is retarded. I don't see your point.
 
M

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Abibi said:
And why is it rape? Because they don't know what they are commuting to? This is false, history and common sense contradicts it. If someone stubbornly believes in a statement regardless of accuracy, then it is still libel.
Click to expand...

Just because it may have commonly occurred doesn't mean the little 9 year old girls knew what they were committing to.

If for 999,999 years it was common for 9 year old girls to engage in rambunctious orgies at the behest of their societies that doesn't mean they understand the consequences of what's going on or have a mature basis for their decisions: it just means that for 999,999 years they've been coerced into doing things they didn't understand.

I haven't seen any justification for how a 9 year old of any generation and of any culture has the cognitive maturity to make these kinds of decisions knowingly. So indeed, I have little trouble calling it rape. I don't find that libelous.
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
Just because it may have commonly occurred doesn't mean the little 9 year old girls knew what they were committing to.
Click to expand...

Why? Can you please demonstrate me what limits a person of that age from understanding the consequences of their actions at that age? This is the crux of the debate and I look forward to what you believe is the barrier that prevents these individuals from making their own decisions.

Ignore the fact that Aisha loved the Prophet very much and the bond between the two is one of the strongest in Islamic history, I would like to know why Aisha's decision making was somehow hindered at the time of her marriage.
 
jarofthoughts

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Abibi said:
Sure a nine year old marrying in ancient Arabia is fine. Taking that example and applying to today's world is retarded. I don't see your point.
Click to expand...

The point is, if bedding nine year old kids flies out the window, I wonder what else should be removed. Hardly seems like eternal and unchanging wisdom then, does it?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Abibi said:
Why is it wrong for a person to start a family when they are, statistically, between a third and a fourth of their life. It is pretty common now, it is pretty common then. Terms like "little girl" are by definition arbitrary and misleading as well as confined to the culture in which the term is used. If vague generalities are the order of this thread, I'm pretty much done with this discussion.
Click to expand...

I'd be done too, if I had to defend child rape. btw, and back to the subject of the thread, should I be jailed or even sued for stating my opinion that having sex with a child is wrong, prophet or not?

Well, I'm not sure why these ideas are hard for you, but I'll try to explain why having sex with children is wrong.

The core idea is that morality should be primarily about human suffering, respect and compassion, and having sex with a child causes them to suffer, both physically and emotionally. Children should be protected from adult sexual desire until they are old enough, physically, intellectually and emotionally, to choose their own sexual partners.

And your age in proportion to your lifespan does not change that. If you end up dying at ten, it was still wrong for a man to have sex with you when you are 9.

So you don't consider a 9-year old to be a little girl? Do you have any children?

I gather you actually have no evidence that 9-year olds in the 7th century were physically, emotionally and intellectually adult?
 
M

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Abibi said:
Why? Can you please demonstrate me what limits a person of that age from understanding the consequences of their actions at that age? This is the crux of the debate and I look forward to what you believe is the barrier that prevents these individuals from making their own decisions.

Ignore the fact that Aisha loved the Prophet very much and the bond between the two is one of the strongest in Islamic history, I would like to know why Aisha's decision making was somehow hindered at the time of her marriage.
Click to expand...

For one thing, as far as I can tell menarche wasn't common in 9 year old girls even 1,000 years ago (it was closer to 11). Even so menarche isn't considered in the scientific community to be sexual maturity (full sexual maturity is a few years AFTER menarche), and I strongly doubt Aisha entered menarche at 7 years old.

There is evidence demonstrating a strong correlation between bodily maturity and cognitive development (Skeletal maturity and cognitive development of 12-... [Dev Med Child Neurol. 1987] - PubMed result), insinuating that a 9 year old is very likely not cognitively mature. Most theories of cognitive development wouldn't put a 9 year old even under accelerated circumstances as having full cognitive development, which I would argue should be required for making decisions with lifelong consequences.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Child rape is child rape, and anyone who thinks that "cultural acceptance" should supersede honor, logic, compassion and decency isn't fit to lick my boots.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Father Heathen said:
Child rape is child rape, and anyone who thinks that "cultural acceptance" should supersede honor, logic, compassion and decency isn't fit to lick my boots.
Click to expand...
Well, what other options do misogynistic societies have, but to hit on kids who don't know better? You're so insensitive. :)
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Abibi said:
As long as this, or any other individual, lived in a society of centuries past yes it is illogical to refer to it as rape.
Click to expand...
But is it libel to express one's opinion that it is rape? That's the key question here. The answer is clearly "no".
 
jarofthoughts

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Abibi said:
Why? Can you please demonstrate me what limits a person of that age from understanding the consequences of their actions at that age? This is the crux of the debate and I look forward to what you believe is the barrier that prevents these individuals from making their own decisions.

Ignore the fact that Aisha loved the Prophet very much and the bond between the two is one of the strongest in Islamic history, I would like to know why Aisha's decision making was somehow hindered at the time of her marriage.
Click to expand...

Children go through various stages of cognitive development and there has been done quite a bit of research on this subject both in relation to educational subjects as well as areas connected to neuropshychology. The French psychologist Jean Piaget was the first to establish the various formal stages and his theories are now an accepted part of educational psychology and has been confirmed by modern neuropsychology that uses cutting edge technology such as fMRI and similar to accurately measure the physical development of the brain.

A child at the age of 9 will typically be at the cognitive stage called the 'Concrete operational stage' in which they are usually capable of what we call the 'Elimination of Egocentrism'. This is not as dramatic as it sounds as it merely indicates that they are able to see things from another persons point of view and basic logical principles are possible, however children in this stage cannot solve or effectively relate to abstract concepts or hypothetical tasks. This ability does not usually manifest until the age of 12.

Since this development has its basis in the physical development of the brain it seems unlikely from an evolutionary point of view that a child some 1300 years ago would be much different than a child is today which would mean that a 9 year old child would not be capable of comprehending the abstract consequences of marriage. They would simply not have the required hardware to pull off the cognitive task at hand.

Adding to the equation that Aisha's father would have encouraged (I'm intentionally avoiding the use of the word "force" here just so you know) her to go through with what he saw as a beneficial arrangement it seems likely that she would have accepted no matter what. I also know from personal experience (I've been a teacher for several years) that children at this age will tend to be very trusting towards those they perceive as persons of authority which both explains her apparent love for Muhammad as well as making it even less likely that she in any meaningful way could have made an informed decision about such a life-changing and abstract concept as marriage.


Piaget's theory of cognitive development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stages of Intellectual Development In Children and Teenagers (Child Development Institute)
Developmental Psychology: Cognitive Development: Age 7–11 - CliffsNotes
 
Last edited:
Smoke

Smoke

Done here.
jarofthoughts said:
The point is, if bedding nine year old kids flies out the window, I wonder what else should be removed. Hardly seems like eternal and unchanging wisdom then, does it?
Click to expand...
Besides marrying a six-year-old, Muhammad also married Zaynab, the divorced wife of his own adopted son. Then there was Rayhana; he killed her husband, enslaved her, and took her to his bed. Clearly, this is the behavior of the most virtuous of men, and it's no wonder that Muslims so revere him that they consider it blasphemy to criticize him, and advocate killing people who do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top