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palestine is for Jews or arabs ?

godlikemadman

God Among Men
It's not about the Holy Land anymore. It's about their land. The Palestinians, before the Israeli Jews moved in, had populated that area for generations upon generations. Their entire family history lay in that land, and just because some Jews who had some power in the US said so, they were forcibly evicted from their homes and forced into a literal, modern day diaspora. I'm not saying that the current rocket attacks and bombings are good or praise-worthy. But what I'm saying is that these people are fighting over what they perceive as their homeland.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It's not about the Holy Land anymore. It's about their land. The Palestinians, before the Israeli Jews moved in, had populated that area for generations upon generations. Their entire family history lay in that land, and just because some Jews who had some power in the US said so, they were forcibly evicted from their homes and forced into a literal, modern day diaspora. I'm not saying that the current rocket attacks and bombings are good or praise-worthy. But what I'm saying is that these people are fighting over what they perceive as their homeland.

So why not make their homeland Jordan where they are the 70% majority and are vastly underpopulated with masses of untapped resources? Why not start there instead? Because they're more concerned about eliminating the Jews? Why not go back even further to when the Jews were the majority before the destruction of the Temple? At what point do we draw the historical line? Why can't we view the Arabs who moved in afterwards as the squatters? Why can't we view the Muslims who built the Al-Aqsa as the unwanted conquerors? At what point do we draw the line in history of who is the ones who moved there.

As for being forcibly evicted from their homes, the Arabs tried doing the same thing to the Jews, and that's what they WANT to do to the "Illegal" (cough) Settlers. The Arabs did not treat the Jews very well in the 1948 war. If anything, the Jews tried to get the Arabs to stop fleeing. The Arab leaders encouraged the 600,000 "refugees" to flee to their refugee camps. Anyone have any answer why the Arab states to this day treat the Refugees so squalidly? Why not give them citizenship until something gets worked out? Because they want to use them as political pawns. And remember, the 1947-1948 period was a WAR that the Arabs started. If there's anyone getting evicted, there's usually a war-related REASON for it, that would be no different in any other country. The Arabs evicted plenty of Jews. Even in other countries, the Arabs evicted (and happened to help themselves to billions in their property) about 1,000,000 Jews after 1948. These out of context misconceptions are spread all too easily.

And the US is not the one who said so. This is a very common myth. If anything, the USA was more friendly to Egypt than the Israelis in the beginning, Truman and Eisenhower were not really friends with the Jewish state. If anything, Israel can thank the Soviet Union and France for the initial support. And then there's the fact that the Israelis offered to accept a deal which gave them a very tiny strip of land. The Arabs said "No, let's kill you all instead". So no matter what your argument is, the Arabs chose violence instead of working out a solution. If you support this concept of rejecting a peace treaty where you get most of the good land (on the other side of the JOrdan river in which your side already receives 80% of the Mandate to begin with), where does that put you? Why can't the Arabs be happy with the 80% of the Mandate they still have? They originally got around 90% of the Mandate. Why can't resource-rich Jordan be their state? The 10% the Jews got was too much to handle?
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I don't want to offend anyone but I don't see why or how Zionists can substantiate their claim that the Holy Land belongs to them and them alone. In addition I don't see why Palestine cannot exist. It baffles me that this is even an issue. I don't see why arrangements can't be made for a two-state plan.
Zionists have never claimed that the land belongs to them and them alone. further more, the father of modern Zionism wrote literature which supported coexistence with the Arabs in the land, and as far as the Zionists were concerned the solution WAS two states, at the time the Arabs rejected it and the Zionists accepted it.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Is anyone else amazed that people actually fight for that region? To me it looks like a God forsaken piece of worthless desert.
and you are a Christian? the Bible is filled with allusions to the importance of this piece of land.
Christianity and the Bible aside. this piece of land is as good as any other, people have lived there for generations, they are not planning to move en masse. if this was the case Americans should have moved out of the four corners region and several American states after the Mexican-American war.
also, for your information, this land is not all desert, the desert areas are the least populated areas.

American ignorance is always one step ahead. isn't it?
 

Shermana

Heretic
and you are a Christian? the Bible is filled with allusions to the importance of this piece of land.
Christianity and the Bible aside. this piece of land is as good as any other, people have lived there for generations, they are not planning to move en masse. if this was the case Americans should have moved out of the four corners region and several American states after the Mexican-American war.
also, for your information, this land is not all desert, the desert areas are the least populated areas.

American ignorance is always one step ahead. isn't it?

To be fair, Europeans seem to be even more ignorant about the situation from my experience, especially British. But when you say that all of Israel is worthless desert, it's hard to top that. And any American who says anything should be first willing to move to Europe and donate their house to a depressed, alcoholic Native. If not, they should get a Scarlet "H" for Hypocrisy.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
To be fair, Europeans seem to be even more ignorant about the situation from my experience, especially British. But when you say that all of Israel is worthless desert, it's hard to top that. And any American who says anything should be first willing to move to Europe and donate their house to a depressed, alcoholic Native. If not, they should get a Scarlet "H" for Hypocrisy.
there is something troubling about someone calling your country a worthless piece of desert and showing complete lack of understanding about the conflict or any interest to understand beyond saying its a fight about a worthless piece of land. well guess what it's not, the politics focused on this land go back to post WWII era politics, to WWII itself, and way before that. the British fought the Turks over this piece of land, in fact just about any major power in history fought for control in the region.
we might as well label history as a whole as 'worthless' without taking the time to understand it.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
I don't want to offend anyone but I don't see why or how Zionists can substantiate their claim that the Holy Land belongs to them and them alone. In addition I don't see why Palestine cannot exist. It baffles me that this is even an issue. I don't see why arrangements can't be made for a two-state plan.
I think the two State plan is dead in the water, if it hasn't worked yet, it will never work.
For me the best option would be a one state plan and full community integration.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I think the two State plan is dead in the water, if it hasn't worked yet, it will never work.
For me the best option would be a one state plan and full community integration.
This was an option more than 60 years ago, today this idea is as good as fiction. think about it this way, would you integrate modern Britons with lets say Turkey? the majority of both Israelis and Palestinians support a two state solution.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
This was an option more than 60 years ago, today this idea is as good as fiction. think about it this way, would you integrate modern Britons with lets say Turkey? the majority of both Israelis and Palestinians support a two state solution.
The United Kingdom has already been through the process of unification with Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, which used to be warring nations.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
The United Kingdom has already been through the process of unification with Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, which used to be warring nations.
There are several major differences. one is that the Gaza strip and the West Bank were part of Egypt and Jordan before 1967, these are areas with next to nothing in common with Israel. countries are not a case of mix and match. if it works for people in the UK it doesn't mean it works for other people with too many differences. look at the rest of Europe, many other European people are asking for autonomy or separation, on the basis of social and cultural differences, and this is in modern western Europe.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
There are several major differences. one is that the Gaza strip and the West Bank were part of Egypt and Jordan before 1967, these are areas with next to nothing in common with Israel. countries are not a case of mix and match. if it works for people in the UK it doesn't mean it works for other people with too many differences. look at the rest of Europe, many other European people are asking for autonomy or separation, on the basis of social and cultural differences, and this is in modern western Europe.
They are landlocked. For me it is the price to be paid for peace.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
It's really sad that human beings reached a level of asking whether this land should belong to this or that ethnic group or to another. The land belongs to God and it must be for all people regardless of their race, ethnicity and color. The core issue is establishing the values of justice, freedom, coexistence and peace. It shouldn't be about ethnicity or race but it should be about such values. Unfortunately, these values aren't meaningful to most people who got blinded and deceived by fanatical and selfish whims, who see nothing except themselves. And to fulfill their vile desires, they believe in one means and that is the means of power even if it means violating the sanctity of human lives and their dignity, giving themselves the right to destroy people's homes so that they possess their places instead. It's disgusting that any group of people might think they have more right to a land because they belong to a certain race, violating its residents' rights to live and prosper on that land because they don't belong to that racial/ethnic group or sect.

Changing reality by the way of force regardless of any moral considerations is the law of our present world; a world of materialism and opportunism, devoid of humanity and morality except in very a few peoples who took it upon themselves to fight and struggle for the way of justice and dignity even if they ended up dying for its sake.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Shalom ,

I am really luck today to find this wonderful site .. I make a research about palestine (Israel) , and I Just want to know the evidence that tell us palestine is for jews .. in Torah .

please friends I need all informations and need all your comments about this issue .

thanks in advance

Genesis 15:18-21
18 In that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates;
19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,
20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,
21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girga****e, and the Jebusite.'


Exodus 23:31
31 And I will set thy border from the Red Sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness unto the River; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

And if you are a real border-nerd then you read Numbers 34.


Every verse is from the Torah, as requested by the OP.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
But what about the practical genocide and blockade to Gaza? How do you explain that?
What I'm saying is that they should find a better solution than ******* genocide.

Ah yes the palestinian genocide. The israelis are so good at it that the palestinians just become more and more.


And we all know that a growing population is basically a core element of a genocide. Which is why genocides are the best thing happen to any group of people! :yes:

You know how a genocide looks like on a graph? Like this.

Rwanda-demography.png



Hint: Thats not the demographics of the palestinians because their demographics just grow.



Jeruselame (or palestine) from along time , even when it's was under Muslims authority ,all the Abrahimic religions praying God in free way , it's saint/holy place for muslims and christains and jews not doubt about that .

From 1948 till 1967 no jew could pray at or even visit the western wall. Additionally to that synagogues(quite old synagogues) were being destroyed in muslim controlled territory.

Iam sorry but your fairy tale reality never existed. And it wasnt that better before the whole mess in syria-palestine.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
From 1948 till 1967 no jew could pray at or even visit the western wall. Additionally to that synagogues(quite old synagogues) were being destroyed in muslim controlled territory.

Iam sorry but your fairy tale reality never existed. And it wasnt that better before the whole mess in syria-palestine.
Jerusalem under Muslim control was a nightmare. the western wall, Judaism's most sacred site was used as a garbage disposal area. half of the Jewish synagogues were razed to the ground and the Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives was desecrated.
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Jerusalem under Muslim control was a nightmare. the western wall, Judaism's most sacred site was used as a garbage disposal area. half of the Jewish synagogues were razed to the ground and the Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives was desecrated.
wrong , you had no evidence , on the contracy the jerusalem was free to pray God with all the religions , we the muslims protected you from the extrim chrisitains as Hitler , in Morroco and Algeria and Tunisia and egypt and Yeman and Iraq.....etc , you were lived with us and some are already lived .
check this link :
Mizrahi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


for the historic areas ;
if some area was abandon ,it's commun wrong , or because it's old .
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
wrong , you had no evidence , on the contracy the jerusalem was free to pray God with all the religions , we the muslims protected you from the extrim chrisitains as Hitler , in Morroco and Algeria and Tunisia and egypt and Yeman and Iraq.....etc , you were lived with us and some are already lived .
check this link :
Mizrahi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You need to enlighten yourself from the fantasy many Muslims tell themselves that everything is fine or was fine in their lands, that everyone had justice, freedom, or equality.
I have plenty of evidence of what I said. but I am going to encourage anyone who wants to know more about the way Jerusalem was run under Jordanian authority to simply use their search engines. Jews WERE NOT free to practice their religion in their holy site. in fact contrary to international agreements, the Jews were denied access to Jewish holy sites.
also your link about Mizrahi Jews tells me nothing. I know who Mizrahi Jews and Sephardi Jews are. I am one.

for the historic areas ;
if some area was abandon ,it's commun wrong , or because it's old .
Really? this is your justification? the holiest site in Judaism was used as a garbage dump, simply because it was abandoned?
answer me this, why did Israel behaved differently when it took Jerusalem in 1967? why did unlike the Jordanians, Israel made sure to hand over control of the Islamic holy sites to the Muslims?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Well, it's such a relief to see that I was wrong, and that the OP question didn't actually engender vigorous debate and vituperation....


Look, there's Zionism and there's religious Zionism, and the two are not necessarily the same thing. And there's more than one kind of each.

The classic Zionism is not religious. It was a political movement that espoused the idea that the Jewish People needed a homeland if they were to survive and thrive in the modern world. And that homeland should be the last place that Jews had a political state of their own: the Land of Israel. After all, there have been Jewish communities in Israel continuously since the earliest days, even when the majority of the Jewish People have been living in exile: we never gave up our claim to the land, we only lacked the power to make it real.

Originally, as Caladan pointed out, Zionists who were petitioning first the Ottoman Empire and then the British Empire to create a Jewish State in what was then referred to as Palestine (the name having been given to the place by the Romans as Syria Palestinia, replacing the older Judaea, as a punishment after the failed Jewish Revolt of 135 CE) did not ask for the entirety of Palestine, but for a portion of it, the rest to be shared with the Arabs who lived there. It was Arab refusal to share the land that ended up causing war.

Religious Zionism does hold that the land belongs to the Jews because it was promised by God, in verses such as those Flankerl helpfully cited. But even some religious Zionists (myself included) are willing to give up some of the land if it would buy peace.

So far there simply hasn't been any trustworthy partnership for peace, though. In 1999, Arafat was offered a deal that would've given the Palestinians 97.5% of the land they asked for, with the remaining 2.5% being subject to a land swap; he was offered full autonomy, support, and financial remuneration for Palestinian claims of losses. He turned it down and began the Second Intifada. Rather than work with those who claim to be Arafat's inheritors, even, the Palestinians turned to a terrorist organization and elected their members into office. Who would Israel actually deal with? The terrorists? The leaders who refused the best offer they were ever going to get in favor of more violence?

If a real partner for peace emerges on the Palestinian side, there will be peace. In the meantime, no one wins. Israel takes hits, tries to keep the terrorists at bay, and gets called Nazis and genocides by the rest of the world. Which is ridiculous: Israel is the best-armed, best-trained military power in that part of the world. If they were actually going to commit genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left to complain about it. Israel's security would be far better assured if they just steamrolled over everyone in a massive assault. But they don't do that: they play this long, drawn-out game of waiting, trying to keep the casualty tally down, trying not to incur collateral damage if possible, trying to keep the area safe for the day when the Palestinians might change their minds and get some sense back. That's not the genocidal move, that's the empathic and compassionate move. But of course, nobody wants to see that, because it spoils the black-and-white, simplistic paradigm of the powerful bad guy and the oppressed underdog who has right on his side.

All of which is not to say that Israel hasn't made some mistakes, or that it doesn't have a lot of work to do fixing civil rights issues for its citizens. It has, and it does. But that's not the same thing as saying that they're tyrants or oppressors. It just means that, like every other country on earth, it's a political entity run by human beings, who are flawed.

Israel is the Jewish State. It should remain the Jewish State, with Jerusalem as its capital. But it should have tolerance for all its citizens, whether Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, and there should be no civil rights problems for Israeli Arabs. And if the chance for peace with the Palestinians ever really presents itself, Israel should take it, as long as the price is not the end of the State of Israel. And that means a two-state solution, because the so-called "one-state solution" is just another way of ensuring that the Jewish State is wiped off the map.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
for the historic areas ;
if some area was abandon ,it's commun wrong , or because it's old .

Oh thats a nice way of thinking.
If a country with a different religion than Islam would conquer your holy sites it would be perfectly ok to use them as garbage dumps.

What goes around comes around.
 
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