Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[Koldo]

It does when the topic is establishing policies of what children are exposed to in school...

Exposed to what specifically?

and excluding parents on the matter.

Which is not related to the child making a decision. One doesn't choose to be transgender. Either one is or is not.

 

[Quintessence]

Oh and guys? Im 21. The age where lgbt was more widely accepted growing up. This stuff still happened. Most parents were accepting of LGBT kids but a concerning number still wasnt

It was like this in the 80s and 90s too, in my experience. I can't say if it was better or worse, only that the vocabulary to talk about these things wasn't even there at all, which created its own set of problems. I had behavioral issues as a kid that can be explained by the fact that I was nonconforming in a culture that didn't even know what that was, much less how to deal with it. All those experiences caused me to reject gender as a construct entirely, something I still maintain to this day.

Would it have been better growing up in your generation? Dunno, but from the sound of things, probably not. Maybe I'd have been able to get puberty blockers, which would have been utterly fantastic and exactly what I needed as a kid. Maybe I would've just gotten more hateful and resentful and instead ended up six feet under. I just don't know. All I know is watching all of this blatantly hateful and hurtful legislation being passed is... it's just... I don't even...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The police would investigate it. A social worker would probably be included, too. Granted, I'm talking about physical abuse and neglect. Those are crimes.

Emotional abuse and neglect is just as serious and harder to demonstrate in court. And they don't present with bruises and welts.

 

[Callisto]

Exposed to what specifically?

Exposed to whatever the school chooses and whether the parents are informed as to what their children are to be exposed to.

Which is not related to the child making a decision. One doesn't choose to be transgender. Either one is or is not.

A child cannot determine whether what will be the case a year from now much less 15 years from now or life-long. No person is static and each person's situation is different. One child may be gay, another told he's gay because, unbeknownst to the teachers, some older relative is bulkying or abusing them. A child who likes things stereotypically associated with the opposite gender is not necessarily trans, but they're being told they are trans. A child would not know the concept of transgender nor the vocabulary for it unless someone older introduced the notion. Not every tomboy or effeminate boy is trans, most often they're either simply homosexual or heterosexual with an interest in X which they'll either continue to be interested in or will grow out of and move on to other things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It was like this in the 80s and 90s too, in my experience. I can't say if it was better or worse,

In the 80s and 90s even being gay was a serious accusation. That's most of when Ryan White was alive, lots of anti-gay prejudice due to the AIDs epidemic, amd when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was passed as a compromise and most people's exposure to "trans" was Jerry Springer. Even in '99 a trans character in the Matrix was axed by the studio. That probably wouldn't happen today even with the Yeehawdists throwing a colossal fit over it.
It's definitely way better today than it was then.

 

[crossfire]

My point entirely, although I am certain we are coming from opposite sides.

So what needs reworking? Our social ideals, the means of reinforcing them, or both? Personally, I think both need to be scrutinized.

 

[Stevicus]

Thank you for a great response, btw.

Thanks. Same to you.

Canadians. Always so nice and polite, even when disagreeing. I guess we Americans could learn a thing or two from you guys.

...Or maybe you can learn from us about how to be nasty.

 

[Koldo]

Exposed to whatever the school chooses and whether the parents are informed as to what their children are to be exposed to.

Which on this case is... specifically what?

A child cannot determine whether what will be the case a year from now much less 15 years from now or life-long.

No one can. But this is irrelevant.

No person is static and each person's situation is different. One child may be gay, another told he's gay because, unbeknownst to the teachers, some older relative is bulkying or abusing them. A child who likes things stereotypically associated with the opposite gender is not necessarily trans, but they're being told they are trans. A child would not know the concept of transgender nor the vocabulary for it unless someone older introduced the notion. Not every tomboy or effeminate boy is trans, most often they're either simply homosexual or heterosexual with an interest in X which they'll either continue to be interested in or will grow out of and move on to other things.

We are not talking about children undergoing gender affirming care all by themselves. What is the harm exactly if one is confused or mistaken about their gender and sexuality? Aren't children supposed to figure that out as they live? If at any point they no longer feel comfortable about their previous identity they can pretty much just move on. If anything, you are just argumenting in favor of schools teaching properly about those topics, since professionals are much better instructed to deal with them than any ordinary parent, particularly if we are talking about conservative parents.

 

[Alien826]

Children are incapable of processing and making informed decisions on par with an adult.

I'd say that is not universally true.

 

[Callisto]

Which on this case is... specifically what?

If you're not following the discussion, I can't help you. I suggest looking at the thread title and then review the posts so far.

No one can. But this is irrelevant.



We are not talking about children undergoing gender affirming care all by themselves. What is the harm exactly if one is confused or mistaken about their gender and sexuality? Aren't children supposed to figure that out as they live? If at any point they no longer feel comfortable about their previous identity they can pretty much just move on. If anything, you are just argumenting in favor of schools teaching properly about those topics, since professionals are much better instructed to deal with them than any ordinary parent, particularly if we are talking about conservative parents.

Children should be allowed to be children but that is not what this policy is about, nor is such a policy needed if its recognized that children go through phases and most are not trans. These policies assume each claim is true rather than acknowledging only a percentage will be true and the rest are kids making claims for the various reasons kids do, like wanting to fit in or wanting attention or in response to something else.

Making these policies indicates the opposite, that any child claiming to be trans is trans and ignores the above. The overwhelming majority of children are not confused about their gender nor likely to encounter another student who is confused. For the very tiny percentage who actually have gender dysphoria, the matter should be handled on a per case basis with actions specific to their situation, NOT district wide policies which aren't applicable to most yet cause everyone to weigh-in. Don't drag entire school districts into something and then balk when parents react.

The ideology coming from the right AND left are not helping the small segment of the population that are trans. Social media and activism from both sides are creating more problems than they're fixing.

 

[Callisto]

I'd say that is not universally true.

It's universally true which is why they are under adult guardianship, can't engage in binding agreements and have laws to protect them.

 

[Soandso]

Why wouldn't HIPAA apply here? There's a reason why people, including children, are allowed privacy over their own information. It's nobody else's business as long as they aren't a danger to themselves or others. If they haven't informed their parents about it, there's probably a good reason why

 

[Koldo]

If you're not following the discussion, I can't help you. I suggest looking at the thread title and then review the posts so far.

I only see fearmongering so far.

Children should be allowed to be children but that is not what this policy is about, nor is such a policy needed if its recognized that children go through phases and most are not trans. These policies assume each claim is true rather than acknowledging only a percentage will be true and the rest are kids making claims for the various reasons kids do, like wanting to fit in or wanting attention or in response to something else.

Making these policies indicates the opposite, that any child claiming to be trans is trans and ignores the above. The overwhelming majority of children are not confused about their gender nor likely to encounter another student who is confused. For the very tiny percentage who actually have gender dysphoria, the matter should be handled on a per case basis with actions specific to their situation, NOT district wide policies which aren't applicable to most yet cause everyone to weigh-in. Don't drag entire school districts into something and then balk when parents react.

The ideology coming from the right AND left are not helping the small segment of the population that are trans. Social media and activism from both sides are creating more problems than they're fixing.

See? Fearmongering. Where's the actual harm in letting children, even those who are not trans and may just be confused, identify with some other gender?

 

[Debater Slayer]

The ideology coming from the right AND left are not helping the small segment of the population that are trans. Social media and activism from both sides are creating more problems than they're fixing.

I think this is one of those situations where an argument attacking "both sides" might ostensibly seem balanced on the surface while simultaneously lacking nuance and not sufficiently taking into account practical considerations.

What are the "both sides" here? The Republican Party is currently working at full throttle to ban gender-affirming care for minors including non-surgical interventions. They're not just trying to limit surgeries, and they're not taking into account the input of medical organizations. Without access to so much as gender-affirming therapy (again, not surgery or hormone therapy but merely talk therapy), there are minors who will inevitably suffer and be at an increased risk of mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, or even suicide. There are well-documented statistics about the effects of gender-affirming care on mental health.

What we have on the other hand, in this case, is merely a ruling that states that teachers are not required to tell parents about a child's claim to have a gender identity not matching their sex. You've just said that a child could be making such a claim without being gender dysphoric, which seems to me even more reason not to require teachers to report it to parents every time they encounter it:

These policies assume each claim is true rather than acknowledging only a percentage will be true and the rest are kids making claims for the various reasons kids do, like wanting to fit in or wanting attention or in response to something else.

Making these policies indicates the opposite, that any child claiming to be trans is trans and ignores the above. The overwhelming majority of children are not confused about their gender nor likely to encounter another student who is confused. For the very tiny percentage who actually have gender dysphoria, the matter should be handled on a per case basis with actions specific to their situation, NOT district wide policies which aren't applicable to most yet cause everyone to weigh-in. Don't drag entire school districts into something and then balk when parents react.

Would requiring teachers to report every claim from a child that they identified as another gender not also be dragging school districts into the issue? Why would a teacher create a big deal out of a claim or possibly put the child at risk of abuse as soon as they heard the claim without even knowing whether it was a genuine, permanent identity of the child?

Earlier on in this thread, you liked a post that said a teacher not informing parents of such a claim "should be fired and be removed from dealing with children." Do you want teachers to be fired for not doing the above every time they hear a claim from a child that, per your own argument, may or may not even be accurate? How many other developed countries do this, and how are they faring compared to the US in terms of education, health care, and social stability?

This is one of the reasons I have never been able to identify with American "centrism" even though I don't identify with liberalism or conservatism either. In far too many cases, I have seen these kinds of arguments that either defend or contribute to a problematic status quo or position but try to present it, whether explicitly or implicitly, as being better or more reasonable than "both sides." Yet the substance of what you have just said may functionally end up having the effect of merely being a justification for outing children to their parents and consequently endangering the children whose parents are willing to be abusive over such a thing—and make no mistake: there's absolutely no shortage of such parents in the US or most of the world.

I don't think you have bad intentions or that you support something without being genuine. I just find the arguments—not your intentions, but the arguments—highly misplaced and far more likely to contribute to harm than benefit.

 

[Callisto]

I only see fearmongering so far.

Sometimes people only see what they want to see rather than accept there can be views other than their own.

See? Fearmongering. Where's the actual harm in letting children, even those who are not trans and may just be confused, identify with some other gender?

See? Seeing what you want to see instead of what was stated. There was nothing fearful or fearmongering in what I said.

 

[Koldo]

Sometimes people only see what they want to see rather than accept there can be views other than their own.

See? Seeing what you want to see instead of what was stated. There was nothing fearful or fearmongering in what I said.

I have already asked twice for you to point out where is the harm, but so far.... nothing.

 

[Callisto]

I think this is one of those situations where an argument attacking "both sides" might ostensibly seem balanced on the surface while simultaneously lacking nuance and not sufficiently taking into account practical considerations.

In your opinion, which ignores what I stated and to that the extent is sufficient to the level of conversation.

What are the "both sides" here?

The rhetoric from both sides of the debate. I know its very convenient to reduce everything to "Republicans this" and "Democrats that". But neither party is the the totality of either side of the debate, they're just the largest opportunists using tactics to escalate issues for their own purposes. Neither is championing either side. The hysteria and radicalism is from the masses, egged on in part by either party, sure. But even without either parties chiming in, the divide would exist.

What we have on the other hand, in this case, is merely a ruling that states that teachers are not required to tell parents about a child's claim to have a gender identity not matching their sex. You've just said that a child could be making such a claim without being gender dysphoric, which seems to me even more reason not to require teachers to report it to parents every time they encounter it:

Which goes against federal laws as I noted in my original post and creates a bigger issue than the one it presumably intends to fix. It's a " fix" that is not new, the same thing popped up in the 1980s and 1990s with whether parents should be informed of schools intent to teach sex ed and make birth control available and extended to whether women's clinics should perform abortions for minors without parental consent.

Would requiring teachers to report every claim from a child that they identified as another gender not also be dragging school districts into the issue? Why would a teacher create a big deal out of a claim or possibly put the child at risk of abuse as soon as they heard the claim without even knowing whether it was a genuine, permanent identity of the child

They are already required to report things they suspect or have found evidence for, why would this be diffrrent? And why not make sure the child is genuinely exhibiting likely dysphoria? That would reduce the risk of making something an issue.

Earlier on in this thread, you liked a post that said a teacher not informing parents of such a claim "should be fired and be removed from dealing with children."

I don't recall reading that sentiment, remind me what post # that was?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In an accepting society, I see a strong argument for requiring school staff to let parents know about their child's gender identity, especially so that the parents could further explore the subject with their child. In an environment where there are many parents who wouldn't hesitate to abuse or even disown their children over such a thing, however, I think the question is far more complicated, and the practical consideration of the children's safety may entail removing such a requirement.

If some people want schools to feel safe reporting such things to parents, maybe they can start by talking about this with the parents who have made it clear that they could endanger their own child's mental or even physical safety if they found out that their child didn't fit into the tight boxes of being cisgender and heterosexual.

At least here, if there is any abuse by parents, schools are mandated to report it. That's not just in relation to gender and sexuality issues, but any abuse for any reason.

In instances where there has been a history of abuse, or at least red flags raised, my thoughts are different, but assuming that is NOT the case, it seems unusual to exclude parents from a major part of the child's life, but include school.

Parents play key supportive roles in child's lives...or should. Just as schools do...or should. Both obviously have a varied track record writ large. But I don't see anything healthy coming from excluding parents from knowing about conversations occurring (where they have become somewhat formal, etc)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

btw, I find it hypocritical that some people have no respect for parental rights if the parents want to get gender affirming care. Then they want the state to step in.

But if it is about violating the privacy of a transgender child that is when they shout "parental rights".

As long as you don't conflate that with anyone disagreeing with you.
It's worth noting that for many parents this isn't about 'parental rights' but 'parental responsibilities'.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

My initial reaction is to vote, "YES"
BUT then my brain kicks in, if the child can't talk to the parents in the first instance there is a problem. The fact that a school knows first tells you something about the parents and their relationship with their own child.
This is like the catholic confession box; the child expects secrecy if they mention the gender issue with a teacher.
If they are forced to tell parents, then the child won't tell anyone. That leads to more health problems and even possibly suicides.

So, I've ticked "NO"

It's possible, of course.

But teens are tricky. There were a bunch of things I didn't tell my parents, and I daresay that's the case for most teens.

I was more 'myself' around my friends. Because they didn't try to force me to consider long term consequences, make considered decisions, or take responsibility for my actions.

My best teachers did, of course. Some others, not so much.

And my parents did. Which was good, but not always preferable at the time.