Parents Rights On Transgender Policy

[YmirGF]

My point is that the validity of something isn't measured by its acceptance.

Even there, the comparison falls flat. Not many seriously question evolution any more. Gender theory has a LONG way to go to gain that kind of acceptance. Frankly, I don't think that "gender theory" enjoys anywhere near the level of support folks think it does.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sadly, you are correct. It is too late.

I wouldn't know, I don't frequent those kinds of forums. Don't watch Faux News either.


I do agree, and this is where the messaging has gotten way off base.

As indicated, I would scrap the entire existing model and start from scratch. What a concept? Open the ideas up for REAL discussions on gender instead of the intellectual minefield that we have now.

The thing is, we have been doing that for decades now, at least. We were talking about this stuff in the gender studies class I took almost 30 years ago now.

I listen to a podcast with a biologist who says the same thing. He's baffled as to why this is such a controversy now, when he's been studying as just a regular part of his biology curriculum for decades as well.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Even there, the comparison falls flat. Not many seriously question evolution any more. Gender theory has a LONG way to go to gain that kind of acceptance. Frankly, I don't think that "gender theory" enjoys anywhere near the level of support folks think it does.

Every new policy has "a long way to go" in a two-party system with about half being conservative.

 

[YmirGF]

The thing is, we have been doing that for decades now, at least. We were talking about this stuff in the gender studies class I took almost 30 years ago now.

I listen to a podcast with a biologist who says the same thing. He's baffled as to why this is such a controversy now, when he's been studying as just a regular part of his biology curriculum for decades as well.

So much discussion, and now we have a huge mess that appears to be getting worse as these ideas filter outwards through society.

In programming, we referred to this as "undocumented features".

 

[crossfire]

You might have noticed that we have these two rather larger groups screaming at each other over the whole ordeal.

It appears to matter quite a lot.

Wouldn't that be a sign that there is something inherently wrong with the status quo that needs to be reworked?

 

[sun rise]

This thread illustrates why telling the parent is bad in some cases and might even be fatal for the child Woman fatally shot for displaying pride flag.

 

[YmirGF]

Every new policy has "a long way to go" in a two-party system with about half being conservative.

I still see this as being a mental health issue.

I am also alarmed at what the medical/psychiatric community may well see as a very lucrative cash cow. Talk about a vertical "captive" market.

 

[YmirGF]

Wouldn't that be a sign that there is something inherently wrong with the status quo that needs to be reworked?

My point entirely, although I am certain we are coming from opposite sides.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I still see this as being a mental health issue.

I am also alarmed at what the medical/psychiatric community may well see as a very lucrative cash cow. Talk about a vertical "captive" market.

The job of a psychologist/psychiatrist is to help a person navigate their mental distress in order to help them lead a more functional life. That's the lens through which they view this stuff. I'm not in it for the money. I'm in it to help people.

There also seems to be something of a misunderstanding here as well, where mental illness is being viewed as something that isn't real or is "just in your head" or whatever. Let's be clear, it is very real. The physical symptoms I experience when having a panic attack are very real, and very physical, even though they stem from thoughts in my head. We can't just write it off as "it's all in your head" so we can just brush it aside and ignore it.

 

[Father Heathen]

I still see this as being a mental health issue.

I am also alarmed at what the medical/psychiatric community may well see as a very lucrative cash cow. Talk about a vertical "captive" market.

How would misdiagnosing something be lucrative? And how plausible is it really that the entire psychiatric field decided to abandon their studies and collaborate on some convoluted money making scheme?

 

[Debater Slayer]

LOL. The idea itself is not radical. What is radical is how far gender identity is being stretched in today's world.

What is "far" to you? In other threads, you have also expressed objection to the very idea that trans men are men and trans women are women. Is accepting people with gender dysphoria who transitioned in adulthood as their stated gender "too far"?

(Hehe. Next, you will be telling me that men can have periods.)

No one brought this up in the thread before you did. This is the fourth time you've brought up and reacted to a point that I didn't even hint at, the other three being these:

It would seem that anything short of 100% compliance could be seen as being abusive. Not hard in a word where words are already seen as violence.

A parent simply saying they think their child is delusional could be construed as being abusive to the ideologically unhinged.

Problematic parents will always be problematic. This particular topic is getting under the skin of ordinary, average people and invading their sense of propriety, fair play, trust etc... Parents send their kids to school to get an education not to be made into someone's "science" experiment.

I feel like you're responding to some ideologically charged arguments that a subset of anti-trans people routinely attribute to supporters of trans rights even though I haven't made those arguments a single time in this thread.

This is like pulling hen's teeth. The teachers do decide there is a problem if they feel a need to withhold information from a parent. Said identity could also be a mood of the day, too.

Not telling the parents doesn't necessarily mean a teacher has decided that there's a problem. You've just acknowledged that the identity could be transitory. In that case, why should the teacher tell the parents and possibly make a big deal out of nothing?

There are some things you do not have to tell me.

I'm merely responding to a measurable claim you made. If schools are "experimenting" on children, there should be tangible evidence of this. I haven't seen any in this case; the ruling doesn't remotely seem to me connected to such a thing.

That strikes as a very cavalier attitude towards parents. As long as they are affirming, all is well and good. Such binary thinking is unintentionally hilarious.

That's not what I said either. I'll quote my actual words:

I wasn't talking about merely saying that the child is "delusional" but also about other forms of abuse, although that kind of immediately dismissive reaction would still be a problem. A parent saying their child is "delusional" instead of exploring whether their child has gender dysphoria is no different from a parent dismissing depression or schizophrenia as "devilish influence" instead of taking the kid to a psychiatrist. This kind of immediate dismissal is exactly why many people agree with rulings like the one cited in the OP.

Where does the ruling imply that teachers have to decide anything? They simply don't have to tell parents about a child's gender identity. Said identity could be a result of transitory exploration or a more deep-rooted and permanent source, such as gender dysphoria.

Also, many parents have no problem exploring and talking with their children about the latter's identity. If the people you're describing as "ordinary, average people" dismiss psychology and science in favor of calling the unfamiliar a "delusion" and suppressing it without much or any discussion, it sounds to me like the problem may not be with the schools.

I think direct communication between parents and their children is healthy, including to explore a child's claim that they identify as a gender different from their birth one. Nowhere in the entire thread did I say, "As long as they're affirming, all is well and good." In fact, I haven't once used the word "affirming" in this thread either.

Personally, I see much more binary thinking in categorically dismissing potential gender diversity as "delusion," "ideology," or "experimentation" instead of exploring whether it could be genuine and talking to a child before making such definitive, condemning conclusions.

 

[YmirGF]

The job of a psychologist/psychiatrist is to help a person navigate their mental distress in order to help them lead a more functional life. That's the lens through which they view this stuff. I'm not in it for the money. I'm in it to help people.

I didn't know. Are you a practising psychologist/psychiatrist?

There also seems to be something of a misunderstanding here as well, where mental illness is being viewed as something that isn't real or is "just in your head" or whatever. Let's be clear, it is very real. The physical symptoms I experience when having a panic attack are very real, and very physical, even though they stem from thoughts in my head. We can't just write it off as "it's all in your head" so we can just brush it aside and ignore it.

I do understand that. Thank you for a great response, btw.

 

[Koldo]

Strawman.

Not at all.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't know. Are you a practising psychologist/psychiatrist?

Working on my Ph.D. I'll be done in around 100 years LOL
So far, I've just worked with people suffering from anxiety and panic disorder.

Honestly, I didn't get into it to make a buck. I got into because I watched my father battle addiction his entire life and I realized it's a massive struggle for many people. I couldn't help my father, but I can try to help others, as he would have wanted. That's my entire reason for doing it, anyway. Our training is entirely patient-centric, with their needs at the forefront.

I'm sure there are greedy individuals in any field looking to just make a buck, but overall, it's not a particularly good career move to make things up and treat people for things they don't have, especially if you're involved in the research aspect of your field. I mean, it doesn't give you much credibility.

I do understand that.

I think that you already did, and that wasn't really directed at you. Kind of just a general statement we should all keep in mind.

Thank you for a great response, btw.

Thanks. Same to you.

 

[YmirGF]

Working on my Ph.D. I'll be done in around 100 years LOL

Very cool!

 

[syo]

Parents and schools can go to hell. They force kids to change their gender.

 

[YmirGF]

Parents and schools can go to hell. They force kids to change their gender.

Now, now. Take a deep breath.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm not big on a stranger insinuating themselves between parents and their children.

Nor am I. But I ask myself, if a child (say a young teen) confides something in a teacher that it has not yet confided to its parents -- for whatever reason, and how is the teacher to know? -- how is that the teach insuinating him/herself? Is the child so worthless that it doesn't matter if you betray a confidence they've entrusted you with?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Maybe we shouldn't be putting kids into this position in the first place.

They're not "put" into it -- they're born into it.

 

[YmirGF]

Nor am I. But I ask myself, if a child (say a young teen) confides something in a teacher that it has not yet confided to its parents -- for whatever reason, and how is the teacher to know? -- how is that the teach insuinating him/herself? Is the child so worthless that it doesn't matter if you betray a confidence they've entrusted you with?

I'd be more curious why the kid would open up to the stranger and not their loved one first. Here's a thought. Why don't we move away from secretive behaviours altogether?

"They're not "put" into it -- they're born into it."

It's like, as a society, we have forgotten, ignored or overlooked the tiny fact the gender identity isn't even an issue for the vast majority of the populace.