Shusha
Member
ISIS does. But my question for Muslims would be why it would no longer apply in our modern world.
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Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all
- Thread starter Lyndon
- Start date
ISIS does. But my question for Muslims would be why it would no longer apply in our modern world.
Because the countries government collects taxes from everybody, and the Muslims pay an additional zakat tax for charity through their Mosques.
Shusha you ask why Muslims are no longer collecting the tax when its in the Koran, as Jew I ask you why are you no longer forcing women to marry their rapists, stoning for adultery, or practicing the keeping of slaves, all things as proscribed in your holy books, the Torah??
Shusha you ask why Muslims are no longer collecting the tax when its in the Koran, as Jew I ask you why are you no longer forcing women to marry their rapists, stoning for adultery, or practicing the keeping of slaves, all things as proscribed in your holy books, the Torah??
Hey, sorry, just wanted to clarify this one...
1) I realise you're a male.
2) Totally didn't mean it as an insult, so apologies on the confusion. I was just quoting the bard.
Basically it was a flowery way of indicating you seem to be ready to jump to the defence of Islam even when what was said doesn't appear to require it. That's obviously just my opinion, but that was my meaning.
Again, sorry if the Hamlet reference was confusing, I didn't mean it to be insulting.
Shusha
Member
Fair question. There are answers to all these things. Answers developed over thousands of years of Jewish theology. The easy answer is that Judaism generally doesn't do literalism. Its a good thing to develop theological answers to moral questions as we grow towards a better understanding of improving the world. (Though women were not forced to marry their rapists -- that is a misunderstanding).
My question is whether Islam has made the same journey. Do you think it has?
You might also want to consider whether or not Judaism should be condemned if it had NOT made that journey. And if so, should Islam also be condemned for not.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
If I was to identify myself as a giraffe, would you take my word for it?
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck........
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Are you talking about a Jizzya tax? If so, if you fully understand it, which I know you don't, you will understand what it is for.
This tax is compulsory for non-Muslims living in a Islamic state (a true islamic state which is also a welfare state) the same way the Zakat tax is levied upon Muslims in a true Islamic state. Both taxes are required for the same reason, the up keep of the poor and the orphaned and it also takes away the responsibility of a non-Muslim partaking in a war if their land, property, family is attacked. It then becomes the responsibility of the Islamic state to look after those citizens. That's all it is.
Far better than living in a state that charges 700 different types of taxes.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
So I'm a giraffe? Your argument has no logical basis but taking on board the duck analogy, ISIS neither act , nor talk, nor practice like muslims. Watch some of their videos, they don't even know which direction to face, something a 5 year old muslim knows easily.
But hey, I guess I'll just take your logic and walk down the street and think of every white, middle aged man as a pedophile.
Shad
Veteran Member
Yes a tax system used to oppress non-Muslims from violence from the state for being different/ Perhaps you should read your own scripture in which the tax is about submission
Nope. Jiyza is for the state which covered a number of expense such as construction and paying the army which have nothing to do with charity. Zakat was used as a charity for Muslims only.
No it isn't since the tax is discriminatory while modern tax systems are based on income and income alone. Christians, Jews, Muslim nor atheists are not taxed based upon their religious views. There is no protection tax as freedom of religion is granted at the citizen level not the tax level.
Shusha
Member
Any tax based on religious faith is discriminatory. End of story.
Shusha
Member
The real problem with the "no true Muslim" argument is that its purpose and effect is to divorce and distance Muslims and Islam from the extremists as though Islam were irrelevant to the extremist worldview. It is not. The extremists use Islam as a foundation of their worldview and to justify the righteousness of their acts. The only way to combat them ideologically, is to confront their use of Islam. And this can only be done by Muslims who acknowledge the extremists sources, texts and uses of Islam.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
why is it discriminatory? Muslims must pay the zakat and the non-Muslims must pay the jizzya, both of which are used for the same reason. So, only muslims should look after the poor and the orphaned and the homeless? Remember, this money goes towards the impoverished regardless of their religion or ethnicity. Also, no non-Muslim in an Islamic state is under compulsion of the law to join the military to defend that country during a period of war ,whereas Muslims must. Alla his always just and this law/tax is just, as it gives the muslim government the relevant income needed to look after the impoverished as well as defend it's borders but also exempts non-Muslims from military service and if they are poor, they are looked after. That's justice.
Then again, coming from an individual who supports Israel, I reckon your view of what is just is different to mine.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
A lesser man would resort to petty insults. So instead, I'll say that the only people who'd contest that remark would indeed be other, mortified giraffes.
Shad
Veteran Member
Taxing people differently based religion is discrimination. The taxes are not used for the same purpose. Jiyza covers soldiers wages while zakat does not. Zakat supports the poor of any religion while Jizya does not support non-Muslims. Where as a unifed tax system based solely on income is within the same treasury which supports anyone in need.
Look up what discrimination and religious discrimination actually is. Again rights are granted by the tax code in Islam rather than citizen level in secular nations.
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Look, the zakat covers for the care of ALL poor, not jus tmuslims.
The Jizyah also has a part to play in that but yes, as I said and you repeated, the jizyah also covers military expenses, the same military which protects the non-muslims. In Islam, a muslim, when living in a true islamic state, MUST answer the call for war, whether it is to defend their borders or to fight against an oppressive regime. A non-muslim is under no such obligation, also the jizya covers the costs of the police force as does other revenues of funds by the government, the same police force, which, you guessed it, must look after both muslim and non-muslim citizens.
Now, you have a non-Muslim, living in an islamic state, under a social welfare system, free health care, help with benefits and jobs if unemployed or disabled, all of this funded by the muslims and those non-muslims who can afford it (this is key) are expected to give nothing back to the system? That's unfair on the muslims lol
But seriously, this isn't difficult to understand, if you lot keep disagreeing with it, it's up to you. I have done my bit to try and help you to understand, it is up to you to accept what is right.
Shusha
Member
Distinguishing people on the basis of faith and treating them with different laws because of that faith is the very definition of discrimination.
Indeed.
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Shusha
Member
My understanding is that the zakat only applies to individuals above a certain level of income and is voluntary (though carries consequences in the afterlife) while the jizya is mandatory and applies to all regardless of wealth and the consequences for failure to pay are dire (up to and including loss of life). Am I mistaken?
(Not that this lessens the essential discriminatory nature of taxes based on religious faith).