Part of being Privileged is not having to think about being Privileged

[Revoltingest]

A story (true) about privilege.

In the late 70s, I worked at Black & Decker's Medical Products Division in Towson MD (north of Baltimore). Oh, the glorious fun we had designing newer & better orthopedic surgical tools! But that is another story. I carpooled with M, a youngish black gal who lived near me, in Columbia MD (south of Baltimore....a long way from Towson). M would go on about how black folk had it so difficult at the company...it was so hard to get ahead. I thought it ironic, because in the year or so we carpooled, she only showed up on time twice. The rest of the time, she was so late that I had to leave without her. She would often roll in about an hour late. Instead of using her 'privilege' to not be canned for being late, she could've used it to advance her career for showing up on time. Privilege exists, but choices are more important.

 

[Alceste]

Give me awhile, Phil. I will take some time before I choose to suck the nipple of privilege ideology. So far, I've read nothing in this thread that is remotely persuasive.

You should read the Inconvenient Indian by Thomas King. It's a really good read. Wonderfully written, and by one of my favourite authors.

Listening to the perspective, history and experience of non-privileged demographics is a really good way to get a view of the world from the other side of the looking glass.

You can still reject the concept of privilege, but you'll have a better idea what you're rejecting, and you'll have read a fabulous book.

 

[Alceste]

Not a problem. Sometimes I do end up implying things I didn't mean to by the specific wording used, so it was a potentially valid problem.

I kind of got the same impression Sunstone did actually. Juxtaposing "bettering their lives" with "complaining" and sticking "instead of" between made it sound like you think it's one or the other.

Personally, I think social criticism (what you're calling "complaining") is a great tool for bettering one's life and the lives of others. Nelson Mandela, for example, complained like crazy. So did Gandhi. They complained so loud they toppled governments.

 

[dust1n]

Give me awhile, Phil. I will take some time before I choose to suck the nipple of privilege ideology. So far, I've read nothing in this thread that is remotely persuasive.

Is that why you didn't bother to respond to my response to you?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I kind of got the same impression Sunstone did actually. Juxtaposing "bettering their lives" with "complaining" and sticking "instead of" between made it sound like you think it's one or the other.

That still doesn't imply that one can't be aware of being disadvantaged in one way or another and do something about their lives. In fact, being aware of your disadvantages (along with your advantages) is key to bettering your life. Please read what I wrote again if you're still confused.

Personally, I think social criticism (what you're calling "complaining") is a great tool for bettering one's life and the lives of others. Nelson Mandela, for example, complained like crazy. So did Gandhi. They complained so loud they toppled governments.

Yeah, we're talking about different things. I'm talking about blaming, excusing, and complaining - particularly more on a personal level. Social criticism (something different) is a necessary component for society to be able to enact change. I can assure you that Mandel and Gandhi wouldn't have achieved what they did if they simply complained and used their disadvantages as an excuse to not try.

 

[Alceste]

That still doesn't imply that one can't be aware of being disadvantaged in one way or another and do something about their lives. In fact, being aware of your disadvantages (along with your advantages) is key to bettering your life. Please read what I wrote again if you're still confused.



Yeah, we're talking about different things. I'm talking about blaming, excusing, and complaining - particularly more on a personal level. Social criticism (something different) is a necessary component for society to be able to enact change. I can assure you that Mandel and Gandhi wouldn't have achieved what they did if they simply complained and used their disadvantages as an excuse to not try.

I see what you're saying. I've seen social criticism and complaining / blaming lumped together too often I suppose.

 

[Alceste]

A story (true) about privilege.

In the late 70s, I worked at Black & Decker's Medical Products Division in Towson MD (north of Baltimore). Oh, the glorious fun we had designing newer & better orthopedic surgical tools! But that is another story. I carpooled with M, a youngish black gal who lived near me, in Columbia MD (south of Baltimore....a long way from Towson). M would go on about how black folk had it so difficult at the company...it was so hard to get ahead. I thought it ironic, because in the year or so we carpooled, she only showed up on time twice. The rest of the time, she was so late that I had to leave without her. She would often roll in about an hour late. Instead of using her 'privilege' to not be canned for being late, she could've used it to advance her career for showing up on time. Privilege exists, but choices are more important.

I'm a white girl who never shows up on time and I gotten a big raise or a promotion in just about every job I've had. You have to compare apples to apples.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Give me awhile, Phil. I will take some time before I choose to suck the nipple of privilege ideology. So far, I've read nothing in this thread that is remotely persuasive.

Observe.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Everyone's got their own set of advantages and own set of disadvantages. In my experience, overall, I'd say that race is among the least important variables in either list. This isn't to say that, statistically, racism doesn't exist throughout many facets of society to varying degrees, and in multiple directions. However, it is far more often used as a tool of blame or excuse than is warranted. Again, in my experience, as someone who grew up poor and primarily around minority folks, and still am primarily friends with minority folks. And, based on many conversations over the years, many of those friends agree - particularly the ones like me, who managed to do something to better their lives, instead of complain about them.

While I do agree that anyone that works hard enough and wants it enough can accomplish anything they want to, I think it's pretty obvious that some people have to work harder at it than others. This is where the privilege comes in.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

While I do agree that anyone that works hard enough and wants it enough can accomplish anything they want to, I think it's pretty obvious that some people have to work harder at it than others. This is where the privilege comes in.

Indeed, and the primary source of such privilege is class and money, not race.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm a white girl who never shows up on time and I gotten a big raise or a promotion in just about every job I've had. You have to compare apples to apples.

I didn't make a comparison.
But your lax attention to attendance wouldn't work everywhere.
But this might explain how you may claim paying almost no income tax.

 

[dust1n]

Indeed, and the primary source of such privilege is class and money, not race.

I find this to be about as accurate as it gets.

 

[Alceste]

Indeed, and the primary source of such privilege is class and money, not race.

Tell that to these people.

Island aboriginal leaders furious after experiments on underfed children come to light - National - Times Colonist

...between 1942 and 1952, on northern Manitoba reserves and at six residential schools across the country — including Alberni Indian Residential School on Vancouver Island — malnourished children were used as guinea pigs. Mosby found research showing milk was withheld, dental services refused and some children given vitamins and minerals while others received no supplements to provide a baseline.

 

[Alceste]

I didn't make a comparison.
But your lax attention to attendance wouldn't work everywhere.
But this might explain how you may claim paying almost no income tax.

I quit the jobs and promised myself I'd never waste my time that way again. They were boring and pointless. I am self employed now - making a modest living as a musician, writer, and general internet handy-woman. It's better that way, despite not earning enough to pay income tax for the last couple years. I make up to 4X as much per hour, but I only work a couple hours a day. Life is good!

 

[Sunstone]

Indeed, and the primary source of such privilege is class and money, not race.

I think there's a great deal of truth to that, but I find the issue exceedingly complex. For instance, there have been numerous books written on how Blacks, in the post-bellium South, were systematically targeted for exploitation to benefit the rich and powerful (who almost always were Whites). In such cases, the three things are entwined.

As a White male, I naturally am more aware of privilege based on class and money than on privilege based on race. But, perhaps if I were a young Black male being stopped for an unwarranted search by my local police officers, I would be more aware of privilege based on race.

At any rate, I think your statement has a lot of truth to it even though I think privilege based on race is still very significant.

 

[Alceste]

I think there's a great deal of truth to that, but I find the issue exceedingly complex. For instance, there have been numerous books written on how Blacks, in the post-bellium South, were systematically targeted for exploitation to benefit the rich and powerful (who almost always were Whites). In such cases, the three things are entwined.

As a White male, I naturally am more aware of privilege based on class and money than on privilege based on race. But, perhaps if I were a young Black male being stopped for an unwarranted search by my local police officers, I would be more aware of privilege based on race.

At any rate, I think your statement has a lot of truth to it even though I think privilege based on race is still very significant.

Considering our history of colonization and slavery in North America, where people of different races were relegated to an entirely separate social status and horrifically abused, I'd need somebody to point to the magic day that race-based oppression ceased to exist in our culture, and explain to me how it happened. Cuz otherwise I still see the impacts of our racist culture all around me. We're a little better, but we're not perfect. My grandmother still thinks the residential schools were a great idea, and says awful racist things about natives all the time.

 

[Sunstone]

Considering our history of colonization and slavery in North America, where people of different races were relegated to an entirely separate social status and horrifically abused, I'd need somebody to point to the magic day that race-based oppression ceased to exist in our culture, and explain to me how it happened.

Me too. But I think Kilgore makes a good point that the primary basis for privilege is class and money. There have been eras, such as the Roman one, in which race was simply not an issue -- at least, so far as privilege went. But there have never been eras (that I know of) in which class and money were not the basis for privilege. Except in societies so simple they had neither.

I once read an author who asserted that racism is a creation of capitalism. The idea didn't sit well with me. But when he argued that racism didn't exist in pre-capitalist societies, I was hard pressed to think of any that were racist.

 

[Alceste]

Me too. But I think Kilgore makes a good point that the primary basis for privilege is class and money. There have been eras, such as the Roman one, in which race was simply not an issue -- at least, so far as privilege went. But there have never been eras (that I know of) in which class and money were not the basis for privilege. Except in societies so simple they had neither.

I once read an author who asserted that racism is a creation of capitalism. The idea didn't sit well with me. But when he argued that racism didn't exist in pre-capitalist societies, I was hard pressed to think of any that were racist.

Maybe it's a chicken-egg thing. Are people more wealthy because they are privileged or more privileged because they are wealthy? I think it's probably both, which makes it pretty hard to drag a society out of the swamp of institutionalized (and very profitable) racism, eg. slavery and colonization.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe it's a chicken-egg thing. Are people more wealthy because they are privileged or more privileged because they are wealthy? I think it's probably both, which makes it pretty hard to drag a society out of the swamp of institutionalized (and very profitable) racism, eg. slavery and colonization.

I would love to go back in time and strangle the first person to become king by convincing other people that they should support him in his leisure. And then strangle the priest who helped him convince those people they should have a king by calling it the will of the gods.

 

[DallasApple]

I guess I'm white. :sorry1: