"Patriarchy"

[Alceste]

Obviously.
Since we're on topic, I will try to let people know if they miss the sarcasm.

But your reply wasn't wasted. My rendition was a caricature but there were people who think like that (who am I kidding? there *are*).


If we had SF-nal virtual reality that actually worked, wouldn't you have at least enough penis envy to try once?
I know I would. But I don't know the Freudian terminology for that one.

That's just penis curiosity.

 

[Mathematician]

Sure - I don't dispute that patriarchal gender roles arose from economic and biological conditions, if that's what you're saying. That still doesn't make staying at home wiping bums and baking pies an interesting, exciting, important, stimulating or meaningful full-time profession, and it sure doesn't elevate women in general beyond the status of household servants.

Honestly, has it ever been any man's childhood ambition to look after children all day and do household chores for the rest of their lives? Why would women in general have ever felt differently? I expect that for most women in history, there was a childhood moment of "AHA - I get it, I'm actually not allowed to do anything at all with my life because I don't have a penis", and that moment was disappointing and sad.

I think what Freud termed "penis envy", although ridiculous, is not too far from the truth. What his German clients had was man envy - envy of the ability to make your mark on the world, live independently, earn an income, do something meaningful, etc.

You do realize the majority of men in the workforce do not make their mark on the world and are reduced to the must mundane tasks - increasingly so as young women replace men in all professional fields as primary candidates.

I would gladly choose a life at home - cleaning, taking care of the children - than work, unless on the off chance I was to become an astronaut or writer. Work under capitalism is brutal, soul-sucking stuff for the majority. Building objects designed by others, processing a hundred customer's orders in a cash register, trying to sell a car at the risk of not getting paid - none of this is enjoyable or preferable, but for the majority of people that's what a job entails.

I think many women have woken up to this realization that there's about as much excitement and individuality in work as there is being a household parent. That's why many selectively volunteer to become a household mom if their husband has the financial capabilities. You feel more empowered and at peace in your own natural environment instead of having to work 40+ hours a week (past commute time) in a hostile, politically-charged work environment.

 

[Alceste]

You do realize the majority of men in the workforce do not make their mark on the world and are reduced to the must mundane tasks - increasingly so as young women replace men in all professional fields as primary candidates.

I would gladly choose a life at home - cleaning, taking care of the children - than work, unless on the off chance I was to become an astronaut or writer. Work under capitalism is brutal, soul-sucking stuff for the majority. Building objects designed by others, processing a hundred customer's orders in a cash register, trying to sell a car at the risk of not getting paid - none of this is enjoyable or preferable, but for the majority of people that's what a job entails.

I think many women have woken up to this realization that there's about as much excitement and individuality in work as there is being a household parent. That's why many selectively volunteer to become a household mom if their husband has the financial capabilities. You feel more empowered and at peace in your own natural environment instead of having to work 40+ hours a week (past commute time) in a hostile, politically-charged work environment.

Nearly all the women in my life have meaningful work and most of them enjoy it. Even those who have taken on the job of primarily caring for children have temporarily left work that they are eager to return to.

I only know three housewives who have abandoned the goal of finding a meaningful occupation, and all three are a complete mess. One is a total zombie with completely flat affect who does nothing but immediately respond to her toddlers needs and wishes. I am sure she is terribly depressed and know for a fact her husband is miserable. Another has teenagers that are now leaving the nest, and is going through a divorce as a middle aged woman with no work experience whatsoever. The last one is floundering about looking for meaning outside the home. Trying things out, taking classes, doing a bit of work for her husband's business, etc. She is the only one I think is going to pull through without a disastrous breakdown.

So, maybe you are idealizing the benefits of wiping bums all day and cleaning the house. Have you tried it? I have. I was a nanny for the third housewife - did all the boring housewife stuff while she was out trying to find something meaningful to do and get a break from the kids. That was my third nanny job working for women who didn't have to work because their husbands earned enough to support them, but chose to work anyway.

You don't have to get a job you hate. Please trust me on that one. I spent 15 years figuring that out, and I feel qualified to impart that small amount of wisdom. If you accomplish nothing else in life, at least try to like your job or you will die filled with regret.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

You do realize the majority of men in the workforce do not make their mark on the world and are reduced to the must mundane tasks - increasingly so as young women replace men in all professional fields as primary candidates.

Ugh, I hate this kind of narcissism. I'm sorry, Mathematician, but that is what the above comment is. There are two reasons why women's career choices are continually expanding and men's have stagnated:

Men tend to occupy most blue-collar jobs, such as construction and manufacturing, and these are the very jobs that have been significantly cut and outsourced. We will always need our cars repaired, and the housing market will come back (it is already starting to), but whether America's industry will rebound remains to be seen. That is largely a product of capitalism, which, let us not forget, is a very male institution.

I would gladly choose a life at home - cleaning, taking care of the children - than work, unless on the off chance I was to become an astronaut or writer. Work under capitalism is brutal, soul-sucking stuff for the majority. Building objects designed by others, processing a hundred customer's orders in a cash register, trying to sell a car at the risk of not getting paid - none of this is enjoyable or preferable, but for the majority of people that's what a job entails.

I think many women have woken up to this realization that there's about as much excitement and individuality in work as there is being a household parent. That's why many selectively volunteer to become a household mom if their husband has the financial capabilities. You feel more empowered and at peace in your own natural environment instead of having to work 40+ hours a week (past commute time) in a hostile, politically-charged work environment.

Wait, which way is it? And what's wrong with a mundane job if it puts food on the table? Being a stay-at-home parent has a LOT of plusses AND minuses, and it's one of the hardest jobs that anyone can imagine, with zero downtime.

 

[Mathematician]

Men tend to occupy most blue-collar jobs, such as construction and manufacturing, and these are the very jobs that have been significantly cut and outsourced. We will always need our cars repaired, and the housing market will come back (it is already starting to), but whether America's industry will rebound remains to be seen. That is largely a product of capitalism, which, let us not forget, is a very male institution.

Industrial blue-collar jobs aren't commonly considered professions; I was referencing law and engineering and medicine. You are also mistaken in believing that I fault women for taking 'male' jobs. I was arguing that many women are employed and then volunteer or elect to become house-moms after seeing how brutish work is.

Work under capitalism sucks for most people. Don't believe me? Google "work makes me" and tell me what the top results show?

Being a stay-at-home parent has a LOT of plusses AND minuses, and it's one of the hardest jobs that anyone can imagine, with zero downtime.

I really don't think I have to explain why caring for your own family and household is usually more fulfilling.

is a very male institution.

No, the male prole is more exploited than the female CEO.

 

[Mathematician]

Nearly all the women in my life have meaningful work and most of them enjoy it. Even those who have taken on the job of primarily caring for children have temporarily left work that they are eager to return to.

I only know three housewives who have abandoned the goal of finding a meaningful occupation, and all three are a complete mess. One is a total zombie with completely flat affect who does nothing but immediately respond to her toddlers needs and wishes. I am sure she is terribly depressed and know for a fact her husband is miserable. Another has teenagers that are now leaving the nest, and is going through a divorce as a middle aged woman with no work experience whatsoever. The last one is floundering about looking for meaning outside the home. Trying things out, taking classes, doing a bit of work for her husband's business, etc. She is the only one I think is going to pull through without a disastrous breakdown.

So, maybe you are idealizing the benefits of wiping bums all day and cleaning the house. Have you tried it? I have. I was a nanny for the third housewife - did all the boring housewife stuff while she was out trying to find something meaningful to do and get a break from the kids. That was my third nanny job working for women who didn't have to work because their husbands earned enough to support them, but chose to work anyway.

You don't have to get a job you hate. Please trust me on that one. I spent 15 years figuring that out, and I feel qualified to impart that small amount of wisdom. If you accomplish nothing else in life, at least try to like your job or you will die filled with regret.

Your personal opinions and anecdotes matter as much as mine. I'm a science-oriented person. I studied mathematical physics for 4 years in college and have devoted my life to numbers, facts, and correlations.

Opting out of work has increasingly become a popular sentiment among women. This is in spite of huge advances in the field of popular culture and education for women to join the work force. In fact education currently has preferential results for girls/women in almost all fields and still many women have reached the conclusion they would (ideally) work at home.

Only Half Of American Women Want To Work Outside The Home

Is 'Opting Out' The New American Dream For Working Women? - Forbes

I have found a profession I love. I am devoting time and resources so that I start up my own school, and I'm willing to live under the thumb of the government and levels of bureaucratic nonsense, but that has little to do with the fact capitalism relies on most jobs being mundane and dronish to thrive.

 

[Alceste]

Your personal opinions and anecdotes matter as much as mine. I'm a science-oriented person. I studied mathematical physics for 4 years in college and have devoted my life to numbers, facts, and correlations.

Opting out of work has increasingly become a popular sentiment among women. This is in spite of huge advances in the field of popular culture and education for women to join the work force. In fact education currently has preferential results for girls/women in almost all fields and still many women have reached the conclusion they would (ideally) work at home.

Only Half Of American Women Want To Work Outside The Home

Is 'Opting Out' The New American Dream For Working Women? - Forbes

I have found a profession I love. I am devoting time and resources so that I start up my own school, and I'm willing to live under the thumb of the government and levels of bureaucratic nonsense, but that has little to do with the fact capitalism relies on most jobs being mundane and dronish to thrive.

Sure, lets science it up.

What we think is good for us and what is actually good for us is not always the same thing. Particularly since many people never even pause to question the roles and responsibilities society expects of them, whether or not they are gender-based.

 

[Mathematician]

Negative emotions in regard to what exactly? That's pretty vague.

 

[Alceste]

Negative emotions in regard to what exactly? That's pretty vague.

Not really. It's a crystal clear, statistically significant correlation between stay-at-home moms and depression, anger, anxiety, etc.

Correlation is not necessarily causation, as we both know, but it is worthwhile to be aware of things that are correlated, is it not?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Sure, lets science it up.

What we think is good for us and what is actually good for us is not always the same thing. Particularly since many people never even pause to question the roles and responsibilities society expects of them, whether or not they are gender-based.

That's a damn good case in favor of child-free relationships.

 

[Alceste]

That's a damn good case in favor of child-free relationships.

Kind of, but you'll notice there's not much difference between employed moms and employed non-moms, except a slightly higher amount of worry and stress. I expect that just goes with the territory of being responsible for the well-being of helpless little person.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Kind of, but you'll notice there's not much difference between employed moms and employed non-moms, except a slightly higher amount of worry and stress. I expect that just goes with the territory of being responsible for the well-being of helpless little person.

Also doesn't take into account how much help the employed mothers receive in looking after the child.

 

[Mathematician]

Not really. It's a crystal clear, statistically significant correlation between stay-at-home moms and depression, anger, anxiety, etc.

Correlation is not necessarily causation, as we both know, but it is worthwhile to be aware of things that are correlated, is it not?

No it's not. Clearly the evidence indicates women increasingly prefer a life at home over work, and those who do have the opportunity aren't returning to the work force; you bring up some vague psychological test as counter-evidence. 'Stay-at-home' mother also includes single moms who are unemployed. Relying on public assistance while caring for a family is the epitome of stress - far more stressful than having a spouse who cares for the finances and work and a spouse that cares for the house life.

Also, being a stay-at-home parent is only one of the hardest jobs if your child isn't enrolled in a public or private school. I really have no sympathy for people who stay at home but don't have to take care of the kids until 4 PM when I'm caring for over 32 kids every hour.

 

[Alceste]

No it's not. Clearly the evidence indicates women increasingly prefer a life at home over work, and those who do have the opportunity aren't returning to the work force; you bring up some vague psychological test as counter-evidence. 'Stay-at-home' mother also includes single moms who are unemployed.

Like I said, what is best for us and what we want are not always the same thing.

I'd be interested in evidence about women's preferences from outside the US, which is a pretty screwed up place due to religion.

It's easy to say "boy I wish I didn't have to have a job". Even one in three men will say that. I don't believe they are thinking "boy I wish our household income could be cut in half". They're imagining being as well-off as they are or better, but not having to work.

The increase in anxiety and depression is probably due to economic factors.

 

[outis]

Relying on public assistance while caring for a family is the epitome of stress - far more stressful than having a spouse who cares for the finances and work and a spouse that cares for the house life.

So many assumptions there...

Also, being a stay-at-home parent is only one of the hardest jobs if your child isn't enrolled in a public or private school.

Or any other non-school child-care programs.
And if you have no extended family, no neighbors, no friends, no child-care cooperative, no...
When I was a little kid, I've been under the care of *all* the above for extended periods of time.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No it's not. Clearly the evidence indicates women increasingly prefer a life at home over work, and those who do have the opportunity aren't returning to the work force; you bring up some vague psychological test as counter-evidence. 'Stay-at-home' mother also includes single moms who are unemployed. Relying on public assistance while caring for a family is the epitome of stress - far more stressful than having a spouse who cares for the finances and work and a spouse that cares for the house life.

Also, being a stay-at-home parent is only one of the hardest jobs if your child isn't enrolled in a public or private school. I really have no sympathy for people who stay at home but don't have to take care of the kids until 4 PM when I'm caring for over 32 kids every hour.

Meh. Give it time. If/when you do in fact have children of your own, then you have something to compare it to. Right now, there's a lot of guesswork. I did it too when I taught children at your age as well as when I was the neighborhood babysitter for several years as a teenager. I assumed a lot about what parents went through until I had my own children.

If you'd like, however, I can give you my own experience of over 15 years of motherhood.... including years where I was the full-time mother, where I did part-time work, where I did contract work, and when I worked full time 50-60 hours a week as a mother.....as well as 25 years of teaching children of all ages.

I could offer what were specific stresses throughout my career and raising children if you'd like. I'm not sure how interested you are in my perspective, however, since it seemed you weren't interested in my perspective before, in comparing/contrasting what I go through as a woman AND as a queer, and comparing the fight for women's rights and the fight for queer rights. But perhaps you didn't see my post that offered it.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Meh. Give it time. If/when you do in fact have children of your own, then you have something to compare it to. Right now, there's a lot of guesswork. I did it too when I taught children at your age as well as when I was the neighborhood babysitter for several years as a teenager. I assumed a lot about what parents went through until I had my own children.

If you'd like, however, I can give you my own experience of over 15 years of motherhood.... including years where I was the full-time mother, where I did part-time work, where I did contract work, and when I worked full time 50-60 hours a week as a mother.....as well as 25 years of teaching children of all ages.

I could offer what were specific stresses throughout my career and raising children if you'd like. I'm not sure how interested you are in my perspective, however, since it seemed you weren't interested in my perspective before, in comparing/contrasting what I go through as a woman AND as a queer, and comparing the fight for women's rights and the fight for queer rights. But perhaps you didn't see my post that offered it.

Remember, though, as a straight male, he's oppressed more than you are.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Remember, though, as a straight male, he's oppressed more than you are.

I give him credit for standing up for queer rights. I think he's very aware of the injustice against the GLBTQ community and voices his support.

 

[Mathematician]

Remember, though, as a straight male, he's oppressed more than you are.

Neither women nor men are oppressed. Gender roles are different institutions than suspending blacks and non-heteros in society's glare. Problems arise because these gender roles no longer serve a purpose, but there is more in common between a working man and stay-at-home mom than the mom and a female CEO.

The whole debate about 'who oppresses who more' is what destroyed the progressive movement in the 1970s, by the way.

 

[Me Myself]

Not really. It's a crystal clear, statistically significant correlation between stay-at-home moms and depression, anger, anxiety, etc.

Correlation is not necessarily causation, as we both know, but it is worthwhile to be aware of things that are correlated, is it not?

Yes and no. Its good to now it, as long as we wont make superficial judgements upon it(like causatio , which you understand is not a necessity)

We can see ere is a correlation but we cannot know how direct or indirect is without further analysis.

Furthermore, wat is related in one society is unrelated in another, or even works inversely proportional instead of directly propportional.