Patriotism as an American

[Revoltingest]

Ahh I see. Why does that not surprise me?

Well, I am a yang guizi (foreign devil).

 

[Quetzal]

So, are you saying that President-elect Trump does not have support staff that does not have experience and knowledge in national security? If so would you please enlighten us why you don't think so. In addition would you please enlighten us with the qualifications that the Obama had to assume the Presidency.
In my opinion I would prefer a person as President that knows that they don't know everything and is willing to listen to the advice of those that do. In addition make sure that those people are willing to disagree with the President.. Vice a person who thinks they know everything and surrounds themselves with those that will only agree with them or only tell them what they think the President wants to hear.
From listing to some of the hearing now going on it sure appears that President-elect Trump has chosen people who are not afraid to disagree with him..

As far as your comment "It happens. Blind support, what I think you are referring to, works in the military. Traditionally, officers have some form of experience that exponentially increases with each rank, right? In that case, blind faith makes sense"
A brand new officer in the military is to some degree a very dangerous commodity. There are some that think since they just graduated from a military academy they know everything . Now I'm not saying all new officers are of that demeanor, the great majority understand that they may have the education but they do not have the experience and are willing to listen to their senior enlisted personnel. Those that think otherwise usually find themselves before a senior office that explains their role within the command is to learn.
As far as you idea that "blind faith makes sense" you are totally wrong. The members of the US military from the lowest enlisted member to the highest ranking officer are taught to think on their own. That's why our military is so good. But thinking on their own and following orders are two different things. Blind obedience to a order is very dangerous as it has been shown. Most military personnel have no problem doing something that might cost them and others their lives if they trust the person giving the orders. That is where leadership comes in and that has to be learned and in some instances comes naturally. It all boils down to "do I trust that the order given is in the best interest of the unit". Most officers achieve that respect and trust; however there are others that never do. Some get away with it and continue to advance within the military and that usually cost unnecessary lives.
No "blind faith" does not work. You normally find "blind faith" in your cultist groups and we all know the outcome in the majority of those groups. I hate to say this but "blind faith" is found in religious groups. But the majority do not have the horrendous loss of life that some cults do, and yes religion is a cult.

Hmm, good points. Thanks!

 

[habiru]

Uhoh, we got the patriot card going!

Is this like when RW media told everyone to never question Bush during times of War and going into Iraq? I remember Bull O'Really mentioning something.

Only time Hillary's supporters are patriotic about, it is when Hillary makes dumb patriotic speeches when she is high as a kite.

 

[Revoltingest]

Only time Hillary's supporters are patriotic about, it is when Hillary makes dumb patriotic speeches when she is high as a kite.

It's almost as bad as.....

 

[Monk Of Reason]

People have the freedom of speech and expression, as defined by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. Veterans like myself see (or saw...rest in peace brothers/sisters) to it that others enjoy that freedom. I don't take liberties away from anyone, regardless of race, religion, gender, or lifestyle.

There are people in this country that will voice their opinion, and they have every right to do so. Many did not like it when President Obama was elected, but that did not change the fact that he was the President, and the Commander in Chief. For those of us who are military, we understand that you don't have to like the person that holds the position, but you still respect the position. The same goes with higher ranks throughout military service. I may not like my commanding officer as a person, but I respect the position that they are in.

The USA's voting system is set up with an electoral college. It has been that way for over 200 years. Until that changes, there really is no point in talking about the popular vote. That is what it means to live in a republic. The states vote and elect, not the general population. Nothing else needs to be said about this.

People that trash talk the president-elect (or any other official) are not doing anything positive for the country. That only causes more division. This country has enough scars as is. It is time to unite and move forward, not constantly take two steps backwards. You are not always going to get your way. Your "team" is not always going to win. Things will happen and you (we) have to deal with it and move on.

If you are a true patriot of the USA, then set aside your angst and contempt. Be a better person and citizen of this great country. Don't succumb to the levels of cretins that thrive on ignorance and tabloid journalism. Take the moral high ground. Become respectable, not detestable. To quote JFK:

"...ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country."



Edit: this thread is about being an American patriot, not criticizing Trump, Hillary, Obama or any other official. Stay on topic or stay out of the thread. I expect the Mods/Admins to enforce this per the forum rules:

4. Soliciting/Advertising and Off-Topic Spam

Spam or off-topic content is also not allowed on the forums. This includes (but is not limited to) posting links or images without discussion-promoting commentary, posts that deviate significantly from a thread topic or its intent, repetitious non-conversational posts, and any other habits deemed spammy by the staff.

Patriotism is simply nationalism. Nationalism is almost always inherently harmful in the modern world. Such simplistic tribal ways of thinking was functional when we were in small tribes without the ability to communicate but now it seems silly. I have no reason to believe that America is a wonderful great nation. I have no reason to believe it is any better a place than anywhere else in the world. We loosely share a culture and laws between us but that is about it. I don't get hyped up or nationalistic about Florida. I don't talk about what I can do to serve my state. I also don't do this for my county. I am not worried about what county "X" is doing economically to my county because for the most part those lines that seperate them are thin and mostly meaningless. Traffic laws may change slightly and I can't have an outside chicken coop beyond this line but I can over on the other side ect.

The patriotic way of thinking drives us to do things stupidly. It divides us into an us or them category which is harmful. We treat immigrints differently because of it. We have people who get up, put on a helmet and gladly die for an idea that isn't even remotely close to the truth of reality.

To add I can't even think of a single functional good that can be done with patriotism that can't already be done with empathy and compassion.

Now this isn't to say that I don't have some pride in being American. Its about the same level as my pride of my alma mater

 

[randomvim]

I did not know that the constitution, or law, established two party rule. Seems unlikely?
Had a two party system been envisaged, I am sure the electoral college system would have been rather different.

I do not understand how a largely unelected Executive ever came about.

Some Kings have been elected. Some others were chosen to fill a vacuum. Others removed.

All constitutional monarchies avoid the necessity of having a president with personal power, and allow for rule by elected government alone.

1. I didnt say two party system was created in constitution.. the two party developed over time, but other countries influemced our path just the same.

2. not many people do. influence in govt. dates back to ancient rome and greece. followed by england, france, and spain. America's forefathers knew history well.

Role of president has increased as well. This changes a few things but emphasizes the main concern of a single group or person gaining popularity and changing things for the worst.

3. what constitional monarchies do you speak of? England was one, but local government was restricted to safety and local commerce. all overseen and changable by the king, which a president takes the place of.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

1. I didnt say two party system was created in constitution.. the two party developed over time, but other countries influemced our path just the same.

2. not many people do. influence in govt. dates back to ancient rome and greece. followed by england, france, and spain. America's forefathers knew history well.

Role of president has increased as well. This changes a few things but emphasizes the main concern of a single group or person gaining popularity and changing things for the worst.

3. what constitional monarchies do you speak of? England was one, but local government was restricted to safety and local commerce. all overseen and changable by the king, which a president takes the place of.

All the remaining monarchies in Europe are constitutional, with no Governmental power. The UK became one in 1689, but Kings lost most of their power with the signing of the magna carta.
Members of the Governments are chosen by the prime minister form elected members of parliament.
advisors and civil servants are unelected and hold no governmental positions and have no authority.

Seven of the twelve monachies are in the European Union.

The Uk has never had an unelected Executive, where did the USA get the idea from.?
In ancient Rome all the senetors and the Emperor were elected.

 

[randomvim]

All the remaining monarchies in Europe are constitutional, with no Governmental power. The UK became one in 1689, but Kings lost most of their power with the signing of the magna carta.
Members of the Governments are chosen by the prime minister form elected members of parliament.
advisors and civil servants are unelected and hold no governmental positions and have no authority.

Seven of the twelve monachies are in the European Union.

The Uk has never had an unelected Executive, where did the USA get the idea from.?
In ancient Rome all the senetors and the Emperor were elected.

1. in ancient rome, executive office was elected by the senate only. a true republic. this would come to an end at rise of emperors who were appointed by previous emperor or postion was taken by military force.

2. president encompasses the flair of a king and duties of prime minister. but foundation was layed when kings still held much of their political power.

thanks for sharing histprical information.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

1. in ancient rome, executive office was elected by the senate only. a true republic. this would come to an end at rise of emperors who were appointed by previous emperor or postion was taken by military force.

2. president encompasses the flair of a king and duties of prime minister. but foundation was layed when kings still held much of their political power.

thanks for sharing histprical information.

The UK was a constitutional monarchy well before the American colonies rebelled and became a republic.

 

[JakofHearts]

People have the freedom of speech and expression, as defined by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. Veterans like myself see (or saw...rest in peace brothers/sisters) to it that others enjoy that freedom. I don't take liberties away from anyone, regardless of race, religion, gender, or lifestyle.

There are people in this country that will voice their opinion, and they have every right to do so. Many did not like it when President Obama was elected, but that did not change the fact that he was the President, and the Commander in Chief. For those of us who are military, we understand that you don't have to like the person that holds the position, but you still respect the position. The same goes with higher ranks throughout military service. I may not like my commanding officer as a person, but I respect the position that they are in.

The USA's voting system is set up with an electoral college. It has been that way for over 200 years. Until that changes, there really is no point in talking about the popular vote. That is what it means to live in a republic. The states vote and elect, not the general population. Nothing else needs to be said about this.

People that trash talk the president-elect (or any other official) are not doing anything positive for the country. That only causes more division. This country has enough scars as is. It is time to unite and move forward, not constantly take two steps backwards. You are not always going to get your way. Your "team" is not always going to win. Things will happen and you (we) have to deal with it and move on.

If you are a true patriot of the USA, then set aside your angst and contempt. Be a better person and citizen of this great country. Don't succumb to the levels of cretins that thrive on ignorance and tabloid journalism. Take the moral high ground. Become respectable, not detestable. To quote JFK:

"...ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country."



Edit: this thread is about being an American patriot, not criticizing Trump, Hillary, Obama or any other official. Stay on topic or stay out of the thread. I expect the Mods/Admins to enforce this per the forum rules:

4. Soliciting/Advertising and Off-Topic Spam

Spam or off-topic content is also not allowed on the forums. This includes (but is not limited to) posting links or images without discussion-promoting commentary, posts that deviate significantly from a thread topic or its intent, repetitious non-conversational posts, and any other habits deemed spammy by the staff.

Your first mistake was thinking that liberals would be understanding. They are in the "seven stages of grief". Most are still at stage two, a difficult stage to get past because of this new debilitating condition known as "Trump derangement syndrome."

They just want to whine because Trump won.

 

[randomvim]

The UK was a constitutional monarchy well before the American colonies rebelled and became a republic.

yes but colonies wanted to get away from monarchies completely. despite being a constitutional monarch, the king still held a position that was not as it is now.

 

[tytlyf]

Only time Hillary's supporters are patriotic about, it is when Hillary makes dumb patriotic speeches when she is high as a kite.

You proved another thing I knew about conservatives. They feel that in order to be a TruePatriot™, you have to vote republican and/or be a conservative. I'd assume they'd say the same thing about being a christian. You can't be a TruePatriot™ without being christian. These types view atheists and other religions as evil commies.

 

[idav]

They just want to whine because Trump won.

Not really, trumps flaws will be pointed much the same way Obama haters have been doing for 8 years. Trump gives plenty for even his own people to complain about it's hardly a partisan thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sigh...now imagine if people had that same attitude toward astronomy and space exploration (something we both love).

Imagine how far we could have gotten had those interested in astronomy and space exploration not had this silly notion of "Soviet pride" or "American pride" dividing them and keeping them working separately, rather than mutually?

Until that changes, there really is no point in talking about the popular vote.

Talking about things is how things eventually do get changed. Not talking about it just keeps things going as they have.

If you are a true patriot of the USA, then set aside your angst and contempt.

Going along with the country, or the military, or the king, or whatever, just because they are that, is often how some very nasty things get done, and that is just this blind loyalty to what is nothing more than imaginary powers that are empowered by papers and rituals.

 

[JakofHearts]

Not really, trumps flaws will be pointed much the same way Obama haters have been doing for 8 years. Trump gives plenty for even his own people to complain about it's hardly a partisan thing.

I'm sure the President elect has flaws, but the problem is I haven't come across any coherent arguments that are of any value, or could be of equal or in worse footing compared to Obama, and Hillary. I'm all ears, but I only hear the usual leftist rhetoric, parroting what they briefly read on social media, and CNN, i.e "Russians", "meanie words".

Most leftists are clueless on policy, and only triggered by what they feel.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I'm sure the President elect has flaws, but the problem is I haven't come across any coherent arguments that are of any value, or could be of equal or in worse footing compared to Obama, and Hillary. I'm all ears, but I only hear the usual leftist rhetoric, parroting what they briefly read on social media, and CNN, i.e "Russians", "meanie words".

Its not really just "meanie words" that is the issue. I don't think any significant number of people who are liberals are upset by that. What they end up being upset by is the fact he has said casually racist things with no filter. A lot of conservatives were just like "SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT!" but many liberals (especially those that were of the targeted minority group of whichever specific comment) felt a deep blow to the progressive nature of relations. Two things that stand out in my mind immediatly is the fact that he was one of the greatest heralds to the birther movement which was based only on the fact that Obama was black. Everyone who had two brain cells knew that he wasn't a secret Muslim brotherhood agent snuck into America through Hawaii. They knew. Mitch McConnel knew. Trump knows. But he fanned those flames to the more ignornat masses.

Then of course we had the time he mocked a disabled reporter. Distasteful as a celbrety but as someone claiming he will lead our nation? I think that moves a bit beyond just being a "meanie". There is real negative consequences for when a president does something like that. When a president talks about putting muslims on a list it should throw red flags up. But that is just my opinion on the matter. I get where you are coming from. You don't care about what he says about minorities and to a certain degree I sympathize with that. I would probably vote for him if I thought he was the best and most capable actual person in office for the country despite saying some off color things.

Personally his fascist comments alarm me more than his racial ones.

Most leftists are clueless on policy, and only triggered by what they feel.

Very true. 100% agree. I also believe the reverse is true for conservatives. They have an idea in their head but the facts be damned. They want it to be true. We will have guns and Jesus and prayer in school and everything will just kinda fall in line. Gays will stop being gay, gas prices will go down and women will go back to the kitchen. Factory jobs which were perfect, safe and amazing before unions ruined them will return and the rivers will flow with bud light and castor oil .JKjk that is over the top but I thought it was funny.

Also people in the middle who are two apathetic to even think about politics are just as bad. Bottom line is...people are stupid and like to feel more than think .Its why both parties are able to continually **** us without even lubing up first every single election cycle.

 

[JakofHearts]

Its not really just "meanie words" that is the issue. I don't think any significant number of people who are liberals are upset by that. What they end up being upset by is the fact he has said casually racist things with no filter. A lot of conservatives were just like "SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT!" but many liberals (especially those that were of the targeted minority group of whichever specific comment) felt a deep blow to the progressive nature of relations. Two things that stand out in my mind immediatly is the fact that he was one of the greatest heralds to the birther movement which was based only on the fact that Obama was black. Everyone who had two brain cells knew that he wasn't a secret Muslim brotherhood agent snuck into America through Hawaii. They knew. Mitch McConnel knew. Trump knows. But he fanned those flames to the more ignornat masses.

Then of course we had the time he mocked a disabled reporter. Distasteful as a celbrety but as someone claiming he will lead our nation? I think that moves a bit beyond just being a "meanie". There is real negative consequences for when a president does something like that. When a president talks about putting muslims on a list it should throw red flags up. But that is just my opinion on the matter. I get where you are coming from. You don't care about what he says about minorities and to a certain degree I sympathize with that. I would probably vote for him if I thought he was the best and most capable actual person in office for the country despite saying some off color things.

Personally his fascist comments alarm me more than his racial ones.

Very true. 100% agree. I also believe the reverse is true for conservatives. They have an idea in their head but the facts be damned. They want it to be true. We will have guns and Jesus and prayer in school and everything will just kinda fall in line. Gays will stop being gay, gas prices will go down and women will go back to the kitchen. Factory jobs which were perfect, safe and amazing before unions ruined them will return and the rivers will flow with bud light and castor oil .JKjk that is over the top but I thought it was funny.

Also people in the middle who are two apathetic to even think about politics are just as bad. Bottom line is...people are stupid and like to feel more than think .Its why both parties are able to continually **** us without even lubing up first every single election cycle.

Facts don't care about the leftists feelings. There is a saying that "to anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." And I think this clearly displays the contrasting worldviews each has. What I saw was specific media outlets had propagated and altered the context on what Trump says to fit a narrative that the left ate up, no questions asked.
An actual example: The specific news media would say, "Trump hates Mexicans. Trump hates Muslims." But what Trump actually said was, "Some of the Mexicans who come here illegally are criminals." And "We should temporarily stop Muslim immigration from the Middle East until we figure out how to screen out terrorists."

So when I hear the over-used rhetoric of fascist, racist, misogynist etc, it's all wishy washy nonsense to me. It's white noise. It's baseless drivel propagated by media outlets that have fried the brain cells of those that parrot it.

The birth certificate of Obama, though I have only looked into it very briefly, but from what I understand about it, is that it was Democratic Obama supporter (Sheriff Joe Arpaio) that tried to refute the conspiracy once and for all --- he couldn't. He said it wasn't about Obama, it was about the forgery of a document. The law should apply to everyone regardless if you pump gas or senator of a state; why let this go with no repercussions? I believe the law and those that uphold it have an obligation to clear and hold accountability to those responsible no matter who you are.

Source of Obama's Birth Certificate:

Spoiler

 

[Lyndon]

sheriff Joe Arpaio a democrat??? Obama supporter??? where do you get that kool aid LOL

 

[JakofHearts]

sheriff Joe Arpaio a democrat??? Obama supporter??? where do you get that kool aid LOL

I edited the source for you. I know this is asking a lot, but, look through it then let me know your thoughts.

(Proverbs 29:20) Do you see a man who speaks in haste? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

 

[idav]

But what Trump actually said was, "Some of the Mexicans who come here illegally are criminals." And "We should temporarily stop Muslim immigration from the Middle East until we figure out how to screen out terrorists."

If that were all he really said so many minorities wouldn't have had issues. He said Mexico are "sending their worst" and that we are in war with "islamic" extremism.

I'm sure the President elect has flaws, but the problem is I haven't come across any coherent arguments that are of any value, or could be of equal or in worse footing compared to Obama, and Hillary. I'm all ears, but I only hear the usual leftist rhetoric, parroting what they briefly read on social media, and CNN, i.e "Russians", "meanie words".

Most leftists are clueless on policy, and only triggered by what they feel.

I've seen plenty to put trump and clinton at least on equal footing, thats probably why the votes were still split down the middle. If you haven't heard anything awkward from Trump your very forgiving. Same for any latinos women and muslims that were willing to vote for trump.