Paul created Calvanism!!!

[Yes]

Just read what He says. Not what man says about him.

If you knew me at all, you would know that I do not do what you accuse me of doing.

 

[Yes]

If God knows everything man will do ahead of time them all He has is robots carrying out His will, whether it be good or evil.

You are wrong. God knowing what we will do does not make robots. What makes robots is if God made us do everything He says without our wanting or knowing.

 

[Simplelogic]

Why do you say so what?

Because it does nothing to further your claim that God is micromanaging the world outside of time. These are pagan concepts of God which have been introduced into Christianity via Paul.

 

[Simplelogic]

You are wrong. God knowing what we will do does not make robots. What makes robots is if God made us to everything He says without out wanting or knowing.

God clearly tells us He DOESN'T know what we are going to do in detail. He repents and He changes His mind throughout the scriptures. He longs for us to follow His ways, but He won't force us. He won't predetermine our actions either. If God already knows every good or bad thing you will choose to do then do you really have choice?

 

[Simplelogic]

"Origins of Paul's concept of Deity

Believe it or not, it gets worse! Paul continues with the following unbelievable picture.

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,..." Romans 9:22,23

Are we really to believe that God creates individuals solely for the purpose of destruction, and puts up with them until He can use them for His original purpose of showing-off His wrath and power?! Even if we could get past this sickening picture, the question remains; how or why would this have anything to do with God's ability to display His goodness? Must God display some terrible side before He can show His good side? What is this concept of balancing good with evil and where did it come from? It most certainly did not come from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel! This is Greek philosophy of pagan origins akin to the Taoist concept of the Yin/Yang balance of good and evil.

Paul's statement could hardly be more customized to fit the hearing of Gentiles in the pagan culture of Rome. Their gods were known to be capricious wrathful beings who played with men and their destinies as though they were toys. It is also well documented that many first century Jews had succumbed to numerous Greek philosophical concepts of the attributes of deity. This was especially true of (but not exclusive to) the Greek speaking Jews of the Diaspora. This is born out in the writings of Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, 20 B.C.E.-50 C.E. Philo was believed to have been of the sect of Pharisees as was Paul. This is not to say that all Pharisees would have been in agreement with Philo, but Philo demonstrates that Greek philosophy had in fact made significant inroads in the thinking of many leading Jews... Pharisees and otherwise. As I will show in a moment, even the disciples of Yahshua asked questions that could only have stemmed from Hellenistic concepts of God.

In the preface to the original edition of the book, 'The Works of Philo' translated by C.D. Yonge, (Hendrickson publishers) are the following assertions of Yonge. Speaking of Philo's notoriety as a student of Plato, he says;

"..., and it is in consequence of this tendency that he (Philo) is spoken of as the first of the Neo-Platonists, that is to say, of that school which attempted to reconcile the doctrines of the Greek, and more especially of the Academic philosophy with the revelation contained in the sacred scriptures,..."
"The attempt to reconcile the heathen philosophy with the Bible was not altogether new. ... it was not unnatural that, being also formerly convinced of the divine origin of their own scriptures, they should endeavor to reconcile two systems,..."

Philo himself makes the following statements in which can be seen the effect of Greek philosophy upon his thinking, and more specifically, that concepts of timelessness and destinyare at least as old as Plato.

Moses says also; "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth:" taking the beginning to be, not as some men think, that which is according to time; for before the world time has no existence, but was created either simultaneously with it, or after it; for since time is the interval of the motion of the heavens, there could not have been any such thing as motion before there was anything which could be moved; but it follows of necessity that it received existence subsequently or simultaneously. It therefore follows also of necessity, that time was created either at the same moment with the world, or later than it--and to venture to assert that it is older than the world is absolutely inconsistent with philosophy. (Philo, On the Creation VII.)

...for what can be a greater act of wickedness than to think that the unchangeable God can be changed? ...there is nothing uncertain nor even future to God. ...therefore, this younger son, (time) perceptible by the external senses being set in motion, has caused the nature of time to shine forth, and to become conspicuous, so that there is nothing future to God, who has the very boundaries of time subject to him; for their life is not time, but the beautiful model of time, eternity; and in eternity nothing is past and nothing is future, but everything is present only. (Philo, On the Unchangeableness of God V, VI)"
Attributes part 3

 

[Yes]

Because it does nothing to further your claim that God is micromanaging the world outside of time. These are pagan concepts of God which have been introduced into Christianity via Paul.

Jesus saves us each individually when he accepts us.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus saves us each individually when he accepts us.

Actually Yeshua teaches us that repentance and Torah is what matters. Each parable he laid out was about turning from evil to good (repentance). Kind of like this passage from Ezekiel:

19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Ezekiel 18:19-32

 

[Yes]

God clearly tells us He DOESN'T know what we are going to do in detail. He repents and He changes His mind throughout the scriptures. He longs for us to follow His ways, but He won't force us. He won't predetermine our actions either. If God already knows every good or bad thing you will choose to do then do you really have choice?

God knows everything we all are going to say and do before we say it and before we do it.

Why do you think God chose Jacob and not Esau, and this before either one were born and did anything.

 

[Simplelogic]

God knows everything we all are going to say and do before we say it and before we do it.

Why do you think God chose Jacob and not Esau, and this before either one were born and did anything.

They were chosen after they were alive and in their mothers womb. YHVH tells us in Psalm 139 that He sees our "unformed substance" or DNA before our bodies form out of it. YHVH saw something in Jacobs DNA and decided to bless him more than Esau. It should be noted that Esau was still blessed by YHVH.

 

[Simplelogic]

God knows everything we all are going to say and do before we say it and before we do it.

Why do you believe this?

 

[Yes]

They were chosen after they were alive and in their mothers womb. YHVH tells us in Psalm 139 that He sees our "unformed substance" or DNA before our bodies form out of it. YHVH saw something in Jacobs DNA and decided to bless him more than Esau. It should be noted that Esau was still blessed by YHVH.

The scriptures do not say God saw something in Jacobs DNA. In fact, the fact that they were twins proves you are wrong.

 

[Yes]

Why do you believe this?

God choose Jacob over Esau because God knew that Esau would give up his inheritance for a bowl of soup; and, God knew that Jacob would struggle to have it.

 

[Simplelogic]

God choose Jacob over Esau because God knew that Esau would give up his inheritance for a bowl of soup; and, God knew that Jacob would struggle to have it.

Does the text say that? Or did God simply bless Jacob over Esau.

 

[Sleeppy]

I have no problem with YHVH bringing calamity upon evil humans. YHVH makes it very clear that he does not judge the righteous for the wicked's mistakes. He even goes to great lengths to lead righteous people away from places He has purposed to destroy.

Are we talking about children and infants?

And now, slay ye every male among the infants, yea, every woman known of man by the lying of a male ye have slain; and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves.

In the case of Noah's flood, there were also innocent children who were drowned.

As far as physical evidence goes:

-The remains of sodom and gomorrah have been found and they are still covered in brimstone.

-The Egyptian chariots have also been found lining the bottom of the Red sea.

-Mt. Sinai has also been found in Arabia. The top still burnt off.

-Skeletons of human giants have been found in every part of the globe. Testament to the giant stories in the Bible. There is a human femur bone that was discovered in the Euphrates river which belongs to a man over 15 ft high.

Do you still have your sources?

I did a quick search on these four claims. None of them provided convincing evidence. The Egyptian chariot wheels only exist in pictures. Mount Jabal al Laws has little or no information on the rocks there-- apparently they are greenstone. The Euphrates giant femur appears to have been manufactured. But, I couldn't find much on Sodom and Gomorrah, so that will be interesting to see what evidence you found.

 

[Yes]

Does the text say that? Or did God simply bless Jacob over Esau.

God elected/choose Jacob.

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

 

[Pegg]

I'm not talking about sectarian interpretation. I am talking about Paul changing the actual text itself. I have already highlighted two of the times he abuses scripture in Rom 9. There is still a few more to go.

But you are only reading Pauls writings after they have been translated into English. And he us most likely quoting from a Greek translation of the Hebrew so of course the way a verse is written will be different. It will be structured differently and read differently because that's what happens when you translate between languages.

You are making issues where no issue exists.

 

[Simplelogic]

But you are only reading Pauls writings after they have been translated into English. And he us most likely quoting from a Greek translation of the Hebrew so of course the way a verse is written will be different. It will be structured differently and read differently because that's what happens when you translate between languages.

You are making issues where no issue exists.

Wrong. The LXX is a counterfeit which was created by corrupted church fathers. It is actually the 5th column of Origen's hexepla. Paul was never quoting from any ancient text. Paul's quotes were added into the Greek translations to try to bolster Paul's arguments. I can prove this if you want.

 

[Simplelogic]

God elected/choose Jacob.

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

So God chooses Jacob and you make the giant leap to this confirming the timelessness of YHVH?

 

[Simplelogic]

Are we talking about children and infants?



In the case of Noah's flood, there were also innocent children who were drowned.



Do you still have your sources?

I did a quick search on these four claims. None of them provided convincing evidence. The Egyptian chariot wheels only exist in pictures. Mount Jabal al Laws has little or no information on the rocks there-- apparently they are greenstone. The Euphrates giant femur appears to have been manufactured. But, I couldn't find much on Sodom and Gomorrah, so that will be interesting to see what evidence you found.

Are you aware that even children can be evil? This is a troubling reality but many children are brainwashed into being evil. Just look at the children in Syria who are decapitating grown men at the age of 7! You could also look at the Nazi youth who defended Berlin until their last breaths. Thankfully, YHVH will not hold children accountable for their evil unless they are of sufficient age to know better. He will bring calamity on all who commit evil acts. Women and children included. Sorry if you don't like that.

I could care less whether you found adequate evidence. It is not my job to prove to you anything. There is much more out there than the 4 things I mentioned to.

Did you know that a world wide flood is told in ancient manuscripts of almost every continent?

Might want to do more than just a quick search next time.

 

[Sleeppy]

Are you aware that even children can be evil? This is a troubling reality but many children are brainwashed into being evil. Just look at the children in Syria who are decapitating grown men at the age of 7! You could also look at the Nazi youth who defended Berlin until their last breaths. Thankfully, YHVH will not hold children accountable for their evil unless they are of sufficient age to know better. He will bring calamity on all who commit evil acts. Women and children included. Sorry if you don't like that.

I could care less whether you found adequate evidence. It is not my job to prove to you anything. There is much more out there than the 4 things I mentioned to.

Did you know that a world wide flood is told in ancient manuscripts of almost every continent?

Might want to do more than just a quick search next time.

Infants? You skipped that part.


You're right; you don't have to prove anything to me. I really didn't expect you to. I'd have been surprised if you could, but it really only matters what you've proven for yourself. If you are attributing evil to the Most High, that is your problem. But if I am the one attributing evil to the Most High, it is my problem. So don't take offense, just heed the warning and take the suggestion. Test the words. Test the spirits. Simple enough.