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Peace and Security Unattainable.

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
How to balance this has also been given by the Pen of the Most High. Any future democratic governments need to refine the model to include the eradication of extremes of wealth and poverty.

In offering that, I am only offering that what has been offered be considered.

It is not offering one needs to change faith, or consider any faith.

Regards Tony
It's going to be hard to get there. The rich themselves fund politicians to get in the way of that. What also needs to be considered is to change the system of democracy itself. The Baha'i model is to have elections without campaigning, without nominations, without the funds to fuel those campaigns, because campaigns need money. It's going to be hard to get there on this one too. Few are considering this to be a possibility, and some politicians would get in the way of that.

Will this require an upheaval of some kind in the future to get there?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
@TransmutingSoul

Here it was


"There will be great destruction, yes world civil war in Europe, U.S., Israel, the Islands of the Pacific, even in Africa, wherever bases are established. The White race in Africa will be almost diminished and will be unimportant in the future. The difficulty will be racial, civil, religious, all over the world. There is nothing to keep the Soviets from marching into Israel. Teheran and Badgered are also in great danger. Oil is the goal. The Heart of the Baha'i world, Haifa, and the Cradle of the Faith, Chicago, and the greatest strongholds of the Administrative Institutions are all in danger."

Prophecies about the Calamity

A lot of these are from Pilgrim notes which were written in the light of the 2nd world war.

In saying that, they do reflect what Shoghi Effendi offered in his official Baha'i Writings, without the finer detail.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It's going to be hard to get there. The rich themselves fund politicians to get in the way of that. What also needs to be considered is to change the system of democracy itself. The Baha'i model is to have elections without campaigning, without nominations, without the funds to fuel those campaigns, because campaigns need money. It's going to be hard to get there on this one too. Few are considering this to be a possibility, and some politicians would get in the way of that.

Will this require an upheaval of some kind in the future to get there?

Yes it appears a great upheaval will be required now, people are still reluctant to consider the councils of the Pen of the Most High.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I remember there was a saying from Shoghi Effendi that said something like this "nothing can stop Russia from entering Israel". I couldn't find that reference anymore. But I am wondering if that time is coming
Never heard of that one. Not sure how that is relevant now.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I remember there was a saying from Shoghi Effendi that said something like this "nothing can stop Russia from entering Israel". I couldn't find that reference anymore. But I am wondering if that time is coming


That is in Pilgrim Notes, there is a lot more detail given in those table talks, but as you know they are not official.

They do reflect what is in official writings.

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
@TransmutingSoul

Here it was


"There will be great destruction, yes world civil war in Europe, U.S., Israel, the Islands of the Pacific, even in Africa, wherever bases are established. The White race in Africa will be almost diminished and will be unimportant in the future. The difficulty will be racial, civil, religious, all over the world. There is nothing to keep the Soviets from marching into Israel. Teheran and Badgered are also in great danger. Oil is the goal. The Heart of the Baha'i world, Haifa, and the Cradle of the Faith, Chicago, and the greatest strongholds of the Administrative Institutions are all in danger."

Prophecies about the Calamity
We must be careful about pilgrim notes. They are unreliable.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I'm looking at myself.
It is tough.
We, the people, elect the leader which would seem to support our personal wealth. Well enough of us do to keep putting the same people in office.
So what does the spiritual person do about Russia?
Wait for this promised time of peace?
I honestly don't have that kind of faith. So just a bit more wealth and I'll be good. :D

There is nothing wring with wealth, as long as we use it foe the good of family, friends and communuty, that we share it while we are blessed with it, as it can be gone overnight.

I see a collapse of the world economy is now also not far away.

I think a spiritual person strongly condemns war and injustice, but more importantly acts to reinstate Justice.

We must elect those that are worthy in ethics and values.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
A lot of these are from Pilgrim notes which were written in the light of the 2nd world war.

In saying that, they do reflect what Shoghi Effendi offered in his official Baha'i Writings, without the finer detail.

Regards Tony
Yes, they are notes, but I see them in agreement with the calamities Baha'u'llah wrote. The notes could be inaccurate, but, they wouldn't be invented.
So, in the light of the two world wars, Russia never entered Israel. If Shoghi Effendi said that, it is still to be fulfilled.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Never heard of that one. Not sure how that is relevant now.

It is from Pilgrim notes.

I see dictatorships and Authoritarian rule have bigger agendas, they are pernicious and self centred, wanting to leave a legacy.

This conflict has the possibility of great expansion.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
We must be careful about pilgrim notes. They are unreliable.

Yes we must be careful about the finer detail.

The greater detail is found in the official warnings. Shoghi Effendi has left a prolific amount of Writings that reflect these pilgrim notes, without the finer detail.

When giving these talks, he was not talking in his official capacity and gave many of his own thoughts, that would have been influenced by the events of the time.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Right. There are errors and mistakes in the notes. But it is very unlikely notes are inventions of others. The people who took the notes, could have made some mistakes, but overall there is guidance in them.

Yes indeed there is. The importance of those talks are reflected in the official Writings.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yes, they are notes, but I see them in agreement with the calamities Baha'u'llah wrote. The notes could be inaccurate, but, they wouldn't be invented.
So, in the light of the two world wars, Russia never entered Israel. If Shoghi Effendi said that, it is still to be fulfilled.

I would agree. Yet we know we have no idea how much conflict the world will face, but to know it will continue to increase until the day the limbs of all mankind will quake.

It is in official Writings that there is a great chance the World Center will be cut off from the Baha'i World.

That also reflects what is offered in that Pigrim note.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Yes we must be careful about the finer detail.

The greater detail is found in the official warnings. Shoghi Effendi has left a prolific amount of Writings that reflect these pilgrim notes, without the finer detail.

When giving these talks, he was not talking in his official capacity and gave many of his own thoughts, that would have been influenced by the events of the time.

Regards Tony
Yes, Shoghi Effendi was not All-knowing. He was not at the level of Abdulbaha, as he said it himself. Though whatever Shoghi Effendi said was based on the Writings of Abdulbaha and Baha'u'llah, and for sure he received inspiration from God (or Baha'u'llah). So, in that light, I believe his thoughts were without error.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I remember there was a saying from Shoghi Effendi that said something like this "nothing can stop Russia from entering Israel". I couldn't find that reference anymore. But I am wondering if that time is coming

Those pilgrim notes also warn that America is in great danger. That some Americans could become refugees to Africa, that the Northern Hemisphere will be effected.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yes, Shoghi Effendi was not All-knowing. He was not at the level of Abdulbaha, as he said it himself. Though whatever Shoghi Effendi said was based on the Writings of Abdulbaha and Baha'u'llah, and for sure he received inspiration from God (or Baha'u'llah). So, in that light, I believe his thoughts were without error.

You have no argument from me, but it is fair and reasonable to post the warnings that we should consider about pilgrim notes.

This link.

Pilgrims' Notes

147 Pilgrim Notes
"Regarding the notes taken by pilgrims at Haifa. The Guardian has stated that he is unwilling to sign the notes of any pilgrim, in order that the literature consulted by the believers shall not be unduly extended... This means that the notes of pilgrims do not carry the authority resident in the Guardian's letters written over his own signature. On the other hand, each pilgrim brings back information and suggestions of a most precious character, and it is the privilege of all the friends to share in the spiritual results of these visits."
(Shoghi Effendi: Directives of the Guardian, Page: 54)
1431. Any Narrative Not Authenticated by a Text Should Not Be Trusted
"Thou has written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrims' notes. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Bahá, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."
(Abdu'l- Bahá: from a previously untranslated Tablet)
1433. Pilgrims' Notes Are Hearsay and Cannot Claim the Authority of the Sacred Text
"The instructions of the Master and the Guardian make it very clear that Pilgrims' notes are hearsay and cannot claim the authority and binding power of the Sacred Text.... Moreover, the fact that the pilgrim writing of his experience is a reliable or well-known believer, or that the reported statement seems to be repeated in the notes of several pilgrims, does not in itself confer authority upon the pilgrim's note in question."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 23, 1980)
1434. The Notes of Pilgrims Are for Their Own Use
"Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 26, 1933)

Regards Tony
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
When giving these talks, he was not talking in his official capacity and gave many of his own thoughts, that would have been influenced by the events of the time.
I happen to agree with that one. I believe if he really wanted to want all of us to know what was going to happen in cases like this, it would have been in his official correspondence. Why say it only privately to one person if it is something we should all know. Make sense to you?

Also, one thing I believe about the Guardians prophecies may not be shared by many Baha'is. I believe as he had the interpretative capacity concerning the Writings, all his prophecies derived from that capacity in interpreting the prophecies in the Writings. He would say sometimes he didn't know exactly what would happen. He gave the general shape of what was going to happen.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The fundamental problem is that among any collection of humans, there will be a small percentage that wants to own and control everything and everyone. And that will work tirelessly to obtain that control. The rest just want to live in peace, security, and relative prosperity. Unfortunately, they never seem to realize that to obtain that peace, security, and relative prosperity, they MUST reign in those among them that want to own and control everything and everyone. Because those people will never reign themselves in. They are insatiable. They are unrelenting, and some of them are very clever. They cannot be allowed the opportunity to gain positions of wealth, authority, or power, because they will only use it to gain more control, and at the expense of everyone else's well-being.

We humans never seem to get this into our heads ... that we must always be on the watch for these people among us, and that we must stop them from gaining a foothold on the mechanisms of social control and well-being.
This is why societies all over the planet need to emphasize a complete education of its children. Ignorance is our default state and we need to learn crucial skills, which includes civics, history, and reasoning.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
As the world again faces war that needs a global response I share a passage from Baha'u'llah given in the late 1800's prior to the two conflicts that also initiated action on a global scale.

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

When we look at the world response to Russian aggression against Ukraine, we can consider this piece of advice that came from "The Pen of the Most High".

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny.......These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens..."

The world has not yet reacted to the extent required, so personally I see the current Russian aggression is only a prelude to what extent conflict will unfold. It has been America that is initiating the response, with other Nations joining in, some not yet prepared to go the extent required.

It has also been recorded by "The Pen of the Most High", that America will be the leaders to the peace movement.

I wonder what it will take before mankind will start to embrace the needed change.

Is there a debate to be had over this?

This is delusional imo,since when has the author of your books ever bought peace?.
 
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