Pedophilic Culture

[Shadow Wolf]

So when I told you I was putting you on my ignore list, instead of doing the ethically correct thing and just refusing to engage with my posts, you instead took it as an invitation to snipe at me from the sidelines without me noticing.

I suppose I should thank you for revealing what kind of person you are.

Revealing? Have you not been paying attention? I called you out for such a gross mischaracterization just the other day. It's not anything new for me. I've long done it.
And, as I said, I've been told I've been ignored before but found later it's not the case. So we just found you don't stand by your word and speak without following it with action. But even if your did more than talk, I don't need you to see it to make a point. For one reason or another lots of posts go unseen by this person or that person. But other people still quote and comment. Even if you ignore me, I don't ignore you and can still use your posts as fodder.
I wasn't joking or kidding exaggerating when I said I don't care if you ignore me. It changes things in such minuscule and minute ways that, as you can see, not much has really changed.
And taking "snipes at [you] form the sidelines without [you] noticing"? How would you know if I'm on your ignore list? You can't even see it when other people quote me. You just get a series of posts that make no sense.
And I've been told I do other things wrong on a forum. Oh well. I don't care.It's a public forum, and just because you ignore me doesn't you I have to ignore you. Everybody else (and apparently you) still does see it as a normal reaction to you thinking people are ok with killing puppies or think it ok to assume someone think most allegations of rape are false and for personal gain.

 

[Kooky]

I'm not sure what else we can do, other than change the legal principles of our current system. I suppose we could reverse it and make it so that the accused have to prove their innocence, as they do in Mexico and other countries which follow the Napoleonic Code.

That's not actually how the Napoleonic Code works.

False accusations are most definitely a thing, so it would seem that the one group which should be at the forefront of challenging and condemning false accusation are actual rape victims and their advocates. One could say that anyone who does not believe in prosecuting and punishing false accusers is, in effect, making life that much worse for those with real complaints about real crimes.

Well, based on conviction rates, the overwhelming majority of rape accusations are "false" in the legal sense.

That does not mean that these "false" accusations didn't correctly identify a rapist, of course.But technically they are "false", since they were not proven in a court of law, for exactly the reasons I have outlined repeatedly at this point, and so I suppose somebody could make a case that all these "false" accusers must be swiftly punished for having the gall to drag a rapist to court over a case that they should have known had a snowball's chance in hell to lead to a conviction.

I suppose it really would be a boon for rape victims to fall silent again. That way, we could polish our statistics to look more favorable to people who largely don't come into contact with these issues.

 

[Stevicus]

That's not actually how the Napoleonic Code works.

Perhaps not, although I do know that one has to prove one's innocence if one is accused in Mexico. It's not like the U.S. system of innocent until proven guilty. Which system would you prefer?

Well, based on conviction rates, the overwhelming majority of rape accusations are "false" in the legal sense.

That does not mean that these "false" accusations didn't correctly identify a rapist, of course.But technically they are "false", since they were not proven in a court of law, for exactly the reasons I have outlined repeatedly at this point, and so I suppose somebody could make a case that all these "false" accusers must be swiftly punished for having the gall to drag a rapist to court over a case that they should have known had a snowball's chance in hell to lead to a conviction.

I suppose it really would be a boon for rape victims to fall silent again. That way, we could polish our statistics to look more favorable to people who largely don't come into contact with these issues.

A failure to convict does not necessarily mean it was a false accusation. But there have been known instances of proven false accusations.

Maybe instead of this "supposing" you keep doing, why don't you offer something constructive - such as a proposed solution?

 

[Revoltingest]

Revealing? Have you not been paying attention? I called you out for such a gross mischaracterization just the other day. It's not anything new for me. I've long done it.
And, as I said, I've been told I've been ignored before but found later it's not the case. So we just found you don't stand by your word and speak without following it with action. But even if your did more than talk, I don't need you to see it to make a point. For one reason or another lots of posts go unseen by this person or that person. But other people still quote and comment. Even if you ignore me, I don't ignore you and can still use your posts as fodder.
I wasn't joking or kidding exaggerating when I said I don't care if you ignore me. It changes things in such minuscule and minute ways that, as you can see, not much has really changed.
And taking "snipes at [you] form the sidelines without [you] noticing"? How would you know if I'm on your ignore list? You can't even see it when other people quote me. You just get a series of posts that make no sense.
And I've been told I do other things wrong on a forum. Oh well. I don't care.It's a public forum, and just because you ignore me doesn't you I have to ignore you. Everybody else (and apparently you) still does see it as a normal reaction to you thinking people are ok with killing puppies or think it ok to assume someone think most allegations of rape are false and for personal gain.

It's oxymoronic (& moronic) when someone
informs you they're ignoring you.
It's a recurring experience for me too.

 

[Heyo]

The overwhelming majority of men who commit sexual assault tend to not identify it as such, so if any of these statistics are derived from questionnaires and are not extremely careful with how they word their items, I strongly doubt that they would get accurate results in synch with the actual number of men accused or convicted of sexual assault or the attempt thereof.

The overwhelming majority of women who get sexually assaulted tend to not identify it as such.
The law is pretty clear on what constitutes rape but that is not what is, for most, common sense rape. Going by the strictest sense of the law I have raped and have been raped. But I haven't been accused of rape and don't feel raped.
(And, of course, when I advocate for educating women on how not to get raped, I'm also advocating to teach them what is rape so they don't accept the "common sense" definition without questioning.)

 

[Heyo]

Rape victims aren't being helped when they are being berated for not having been confident enough, for "looking like a victim", for not having iterated the correct set of actions that would certainly stop all rape from happening (the irony being of course, that they do not actually prevent rape from happening, because rape is a complex issue and rapists can be encountered in many different situations where most "advice" will not apply).

Who is berating rape victims? (Well, I would if I had warned the victim - after helping her/him to get all the help and justice they want.)
Do we berate fraud victims? Kind of. When someone falls for the prince from Ghana who wanted your (well paid) help in transferring his riches, we facepalm. That doesn't mean that the prince gets off the hook. Fraud is still a crime even though it needs the (uncritical/greedy/stupid) assistance of the defrauded.
Rape is still a crime and we should treat it as such - even though the victim did everything to help the perpetrator.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

So I guess this means you won't ever adress the questions I posed in Post #104

It would be an exercise in utter futility.

 

[Kooky]

It would be an exercise in utter futility.

Yes, you don't seem very interested in engaging with the arguments I am advancing here, nor with the supporting data I supplied.

 

[Kooky]

Who is berating rape victims? (Well, I would if I had warned the victim - after helping her/him to get all the help and justice they want.)
Do we berate fraud victims? Kind of. When someone falls for the prince from Ghana who wanted your (well paid) help in transferring his riches, we facepalm. That doesn't mean that the prince gets off the hook. Fraud is still a crime even though it needs the (uncritical/greedy/stupid) assistance of the defrauded.
Rape is still a crime and we should treat it as such - even though the victim did everything to help the perpetrator.

And here is exactly that berating tone I was alluding to earlier.

 

[Kooky]

The overwhelming majority of women who get sexually assaulted tend to not identify it as such.
The law is pretty clear on what constitutes rape but that is not what is, for most, common sense rape. Going by the strictest sense of the law I have raped and have been raped. But I haven't been accused of rape and don't feel raped.
(And, of course, when I advocate for educating women on how not to get raped, I'm also advocating to teach them what is rape so they don't accept the "common sense" definition without questioning.)

Here's a radical approach - what if, instead of passively "educating" women how to not get raped, we actually started supporting women in danger of being raped, and actively trying to prevent rape from occurring, regardless of the would-be victim's behavior? How about, instead of relying on a legal system that we factually know lets a majority of rape cases end with no conviction, we try and actively stop rape from occurring in the first place?

Or would that be too much?

 

[Kooky]

Perhaps not, although I do know that one has to prove one's innocence if one is accused in Mexico. It's not like the U.S. system of innocent until proven guilty. Which system would you prefer?

Do you have any sources for this claim?
I've tried to look up these claims and could not find anything corroborating them.

A failure to convict does not necessarily mean it was a false accusation. But there have been known instances of proven false accusations.

There have been known instance of proven false accusation for literally any crime on the books, yet curious we only think this is a topic worth debating when talking about female accusations of having been sexually assaulted by wealthy and socially influential men. Don't you find that equally curious?

If a failure to convict does not mean the accusation was false, then why do people assume that an unproven accusation must be false and motivated by monetary gain or attention seeking? That would be a highly spurious assumption given your argument, don't you think so as well?

Maybe instead of this "supposing" you keep doing, why don't you offer something constructive - such as a proposed solution?

See Post #130

 

[Stevicus]

Do you have any sources for this claim?
I've tried to look up these claims and could not find anything corroborating them.

Opinion: In Mexico, guilty till proven innocent | CNN

law - Is one guilty until proven innocent in the Mexican legal system? - Skeptics Stack Exchange

It's pretty well common knowledge for those of us who live close to the Mexican border. Although they may have recently altered that law.

There have been known instance of proven false accusation for literally any crime on the books, yet curious we only think this is a topic worth debating when talking about female accusations of having been sexually assaulted by wealthy and socially influential men. Don't you find that equally curious?

Any false accusation, regardless of the crime, is inexcusable. If any innocent person has to spend even one day in jail for a crime they didn't commit, I would consider that a crime against humanity and duly punished as such.

If a failure to convict does not mean the accusation was false, then why do people assume that an unproven accusation must be false and motivated by monetary gain or attention seeking? That would be a highly spurious assumption given your argument, don't you think so as well?

I don't know who is assuming this or what you think my argument is here.

If someone is accused of making a false accusation, the same rules apply: Innocent until proven guilty. A lack of conviction for a rape accusation would not be enough evidence by itself to prove the accusation was false. More evidence would be needed (but not necessarily impossible to obtain).

I recall a case where a man had recorded a conversation with a woman, where she essentially told him to pay her money, or else she would accuse him of rape. He refused, she made her accusation, and then he produced the recording. It was open and shut.

I don't know why people think it's okay to make false accusations. As I said, those who make false accusations make all the more difficult for those who are real victims of real crimes. So, if you feel as strongly about this issue as you appear, then you should be wanting to draw and quarter anyone making false accusations.

 

[Revoltingest]

Opinion: In Mexico, guilty till proven innocent | CNN

law - Is one guilty until proven innocent in the Mexican legal system? - Skeptics Stack Exchange

It's pretty well common knowledge for those of us who live close to the Mexican border. Although they may have recently altered that law.



Any false accusation, regardless of the crime, is inexcusable. If any innocent person has to spend even one day in jail for a crime they didn't commit, I would consider that a crime against humanity and duly punished as such.



I don't know who is assuming this or what you think my argument is here.

If someone is accused of making a false accusation, the same rules apply: Innocent until proven guilty. A lack of conviction for a rape accusation would not be enough evidence by itself to prove the accusation was false. More evidence would be needed (but not necessarily impossible to obtain).

I recall a case where a man had recorded a conversation with a woman, where she essentially told him to pay her money, or else she would accuse him of rape. He refused, she made her accusation, and then he produced the recording. It was open and shut.

I don't know why people think it's okay to make false accusations. As I said, those who make false accusations make all the more difficult for those who are real victims of real crimes. So, if you feel as strongly about this issue as you appear, then you should be wanting to draw and quarter anyone making false accusations.

Reminds me of....

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Yes, you don't seem very interested in engaging with the arguments I am advancing here, nor with the supporting data I supplied.

1 - I am interested in engaging with your arguments, but I am not interested in a one-sided debate, where you fail to acknowledge your points on which I do agree and am instead met with "admonishment" on the points I don't agree.
2 - I am interested in engaging with your arguments, but I am not interested in chasing red herrings; one argument needs discussed to some sort of closure (mutual agreement or mutual agreed impasse) before proceeding to the next. That is called a "discussion".
3 - I suspect your mode of thinking is "All Or Nothing"; thus, I can't "partially" agree with your sentiments, because if I don't agree with EVERYTHING you say, then I agree with NOTHING you say; thus I can't be PARTIALLY right, I must be ABSOLUTELY right or COMPLETELY wrong; and the only ABSOLUTELY right is "your" right. Discussion, debate, and problem solving are now dead under this set of circumstances; there can only be conflict.
4 - I do not see that you are advancing. I see you running around in circles, throwing out red herrings and thrashing in rage. Let me show you how I am following your logic; and if I have failed to grasp your logic, perhaps you, in your fervent emotional investment into the issue, have failed to properly convey it.

• Women are raped.
• We live in a "rape culture" and this culture doesn't want to teach men not to rape.
• Most rapists do not value consent, and we can teach information but we can't teach values, so these rapists don't want to learn not to rape. (Information can be taught. Values cannot. Values are far too intrinsic to be internalized through mere instruction and presentation of facts).
• We certainly can't teach rape prevention, because, it appears that in your view (which I see as a twisted view) this somehow teaches women that they are responsible and to blame if they ARE raped.
• Again, with your "all or nothing" logic, if anything presented doesn't prevent ALL rape, then it prevents NO rape and is utterly useless and futile.
• So, we have a teacher who doesn't want to teach, teaching rapists who don't want to learn, information that is useless because it won't be 100% effective, "not to rape"; and the same system certainly can NOT teach women rape prevention; so these women are depending on your flawed system which can't accomplish what you want it to accomplish, to do something that these women certainly can't do themselves because they have been disenfranchised from the skills and information they need to do so, causing them to be ignorant and susceptible to the wiles and charms of their future assailant.
• The end result of this flawed and illogical system will be that women will be raped.

NEXT we have your anger towards the legal system:

• https://opsvaw.as.uky.edu/sites/default/files/07_Rape_Prosecution.pdf indicates that the success of conviction often relies upon the testimony of the victim, who tragically and sadly suffers secondary victimization through our legal systems. This often causes victims to fail to report or to not follow the trial through to its conclusion.
  
• While these points have validity, your proposed solution is equally mosntrous: That rape accusations be taken at face value, so if anyone points a finger at anyone and shouts "rape", BAM, game over; the defendant has no defense, there is no trial, as we can't subject the victim to further victimization, negating any and all avenues of a legal defense. So, if a narcisisst decides they are through with their target, or a wife decides to leave her husband but still keep everything, or a mentally disturbed individual decides to set someone up for fun, or some female who feels guilty afterwards decides her valid consent she gave yesterday is no longer valid because of her feelings today, all they have to do is point the finger. Lives, careers, and families are destroyed as the defenseless accused takes a one-way ticket to the Big House; and now we're back to the atrocities of the Winnache Witch Hunt (Wenatchee child abuse prosecutions - Wikipedia) and the McMartin Preschool Trial (McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia) travesties.

If you will stop proselytizing and start discussing, slow your roll, pick a topic, stick with that topic, address the topic with the humility that you could be partially or completely wrong or misinformed, then we can have a discussion.

Start by going through this thread and find just ONE point where I agreed, wholly or partially, and we can start there; and if you can't do that, then this is not a discussion, it is an argument, and I'm not interested.

 

[Kooky]

Here are actions that RAINN recommends to prevent sexual assault.

Note how they don't imply that preventing sexual assault is a responsibility that falls solely on the would be victim:

The only person responsible for committing sexual assault is a perpetrator, but all of us have the ability to look out for each other’s safety. Whether it’s giving someone a safe ride home from a party or directly confronting a person who is engaging in threatening behavior, anyone can help prevent sexual violence.

What is a bystander?
A bystander is a person who is present when an event takes place but isn’t directly involved. Bystanders might be present when sexual assault or abuse occurs—or they could witness the circumstances that lead up to these crimes.

On average there are over 293,000 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the U.S. The majority of these crimes are committed by someone the victim knows. Given these circumstances, it’s important to recognize the role bystanders can play in preventing crimes like sexual assault.

What can I do to prevent sexual assault?
You may have heard the term “bystander intervention” to describe a situation where someone who isn’t directly involved steps in to change the outcome. Stepping in may give the person you’re concerned about a chance to get to a safe place or leave the situation. You don’t have to be a hero or even stand out from the crowd to make a big difference in someone’s life. Take steps to protect someone who may be at risk in a way that fits your comfort level.

Whether you’re taking home a friend who has had too much to drink, explaining that a rape joke isn’t funny, or getting security involved when someone is behaving aggressively, choosing to step in can affect the way those around you think about and respond to sexual violence.

Why don’t people help more often?
It’s not always easy to step in, even if you know it’s the right thing to do. Some common reasons bystanders remain on the sidelines include:

• “I don’t know what to do or what to say.”
• “I don’t want to cause a scene.”
• “It’s not my business.”
• “I don’t want my friend to be mad at me.”
• “I’m sure someone else will step in.”

It’s okay to have these thoughts, but it’s important to realize that your actions can have a big impact. In many situations, bystanders have the opportunity to prevent crimes like sexual assault from happening in the first place.

Your actions matter
Whether or not you were able to change the outcome of the situation, by stepping in you are helping change the way people think about their roles in preventing sexual violence. If you suspect that someone you know has been sexually assaulted, there are steps you can take to support that person

Your Role in Preventing Sexual Assault | RAINN

How can I play a role in preventing sexual assault?
The key to keeping your friends safe is learning how to intervene in a way that fits the situation and your comfort level. Having this knowledge on hand can give you the confidence to step in when something isn’t right. Stepping in can make all the difference, but it should never put your own safety at risk.

Create a distraction
Do what you can to interrupt the situation. A distraction can give the person at risk a chance to get to a safe place.

• Cut off the conversation with a diversion like, “Let’s get pizza, I’m starving,” or “This party is lame. Let’s try somewhere else.”
• Bring out fresh food or drinks and offer them to everyone at the party, including the people you are concerned about.
• Start an activity that is draws other people in, like a game, a debate, or a dance party.

Ask directly
Talk directly to the person who might be in trouble.

• Ask questions like “Who did you come here with?” or “Would you like me to stay with you?”

Refer to an authority
Sometimes the safest way to intervene is to refer to a neutral party with the authority to change the situation, like an RA or security guard.

• Talk to a security guard, bartender, or another employee about your concerns. It’s in their best interest to ensure that their patrons are safe, and they will usually be willing to step in.
• Don’t hesitate to call 911 if you are concerned for someone else’s safety.

Enlist others
It can be intimidating to approach a situation alone. Enlist another person to support you.

• Ask someone to come with you to approach the person at risk. When it comes to expressing concern, sometimes there is power in numbers.
• Ask someone to intervene in your place. For example, you could ask someone who knows the person at risk to escort them to the bathroom.
• Enlist the friend of the person you’re concerned about. “Your friend looks like they’ve had a lot to drink. Can you check on them?”

Steps You Can Take to Prevent Sexual Assault | RAINN

But I guess you guys are going to ignore this just like the last data point from a reliable source I dropped into this thread.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

@Kooky

You take my criticisms of your views as personal attacks. They are not. I regret that you have perceived my criticisms in such a light.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Here are actions that RAINN recommends for individuals to prevent sexual assault.

We have found something upon which we can agree. I like what I see in this list.

This is not the first time I have found something YOU have said which I can agree with. (Like when I answered your question "how many young men are taught 'informed consent'" with "not enough").

I volunteer for an organization that seeks to prevent childhood sexual abuse. One of the things we do is reach out to persons who are struggling with their feelings towards children and providing them support and referring them to therapists in coping with these feelings so that they don't harm a child.

We really are on the same team -- we just differ on some points on how to reach the goal.

I never ONCE criticized your character (the very definition of Ad Hominem); I criticized your logic. Big difference.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I think she put me on her "ignore" list.

 

[Heyo]

Here's a radical approach - what if, instead of passively "educating" women how to not get raped, we actually started supporting women in danger of being raped, and actively trying to prevent rape from occurring, regardless of the would-be victim's behavior? How about, instead of relying on a legal system that we factually know lets a majority of rape cases end with no conviction, we try and actively stop rape from occurring in the first place?

Or would that be too much?

I never said anything to the contrary. Like you, I'm all for preventing rape. We just differ on the methods. (Well, I proposed a method while you oppose that proposal. You haven't proposed a method by yourself.)

 

[Heyo]

Here are actions that RAINN recommends to prevent sexual assault.

Note how they don't imply that preventing sexual assault is a responsibility that falls solely on the would be victim:


Your Role in Preventing Sexual Assault | RAINN

Steps You Can Take to Prevent Sexual Assault | RAINN

But I guess you guys are going to ignore this just like the last data point from a reliable source I dropped into this thread.

Now we are talking.
That is a list of some useful tips. And it contains exactly what I was proposing:

Ask directly
Talk directly to the person who might be in trouble.

Teaching potential victims not to become actual ones.
And that should be the first step - and the last if you're told to **** off. You should be sure that your actions are in line with the interests of the potential "victim" who may or may not know what they are doing and may or may not be OK with what is going on. "Helping" can be a very condescending thing.
Agree?