Perceptions of Islam

[Nehustan]

A Couple of things....

Firstly personally I have a problem with using the Bible to 'verify' the vailidity of Muhammad on a couple of points. I think the first one is that 'The Spirit' is of very great importance to the Christians, and the verse relating to the 'comforter' (Ahmed in Arabic) would need them to make a paradigm shift from their Christian perspective. Added to this is the fact that their own book warns them not to blaspheme/deny the spirit. So you can see the problem. Using this verse to verify the coming of Muhammad (although it may well be true!!!!) will push certain Christians away from Islam, rather than bringing them closer. Secondly as the Quran states it is a completion, with previous revelations as steps toward an end. I think when I consider 'faults' in the Bible (i'm not sure there are that many the more I learn of Islam) I bring to mind the ayat of the Quran where Muhammad is told to respond to those who ask 'Why wasn't the Quran revealed complete?' He is instructed to reply 'It is revealed in stages, so as to strengthen you'. If this was then true for Muhammad's revelation, then would it not be true of all revelation. So if the previous books were true for previous people, as with say the teaching of a High School child different from Post Graduate Doctorates, so its not that the Bible is wrong, rather knowledge is (in fact always) revealed in stages. Thus I think that the proof of Muhammad should solely be The Quran and Hadith, and we should only look at complimentary knowledge from the previous revelations, rather than choosing parts over which there could be conflict. My opinion, and as they say opinions are like....

A secondary point...we came back to evolution. Mehrosh asked how did the Universe evolve, well its true that to my mind the Universe began with a event, a singularity, what would commonly be called 'The Big Bang', but our stellar system evolved after that event. Our planets are far younger than the universe proper and underwent an evolution of their own. Life on the planet, well I would remind my Muslim brothers here....that we are not bound by the Genesis story....that is really for the Jews and Christians to try and understand, the Muslims have been freed from any duty to understand such things, and if they are wise they would stick to the Quran and Hadith. In Islam we are told that Allah uses means for all that occurs within the creation. We are also told that when Allah says 'Be' that it is. We are also told that Allah 'molded' Adam, then (presumambly when the 'clay' was perfected) he breathed Ruh (Spirit) into him. There is nothing in these teaching that contradicts what we are told by modern science. It may be that people think that when God says be in his realm that what he has commanded immediately occurs within our time frame, but this would almost be a subtle form of shirk, in that you attempt to attribute our perception of time to Allah. When God said be in his realm it could have manifest within linear time WITHIN the creation as 10 MIllion years.

I believe that Allah is the Infinite and Absolute that sustains and encompasses the creation, both the First heaven within the Kursi, and the creation hidden from our eyes up to the Arsh, up to Firdaus. Although I cannot prove this through scientific method I believe he was the cause of the fluctuation in the singularity that preceeded the big bang as the Quran states 'Once the heavens and the earth were joined together...then they were split apart' (paraphrased).

 

[mehrosh]

Will you kindly provide some quotations from the Quran on what is to be done to a person who refuses Islam and converts to another religion?

The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished.

Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray."

Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

I hope these are enough for you.

Regards
Mehrosh

 

[Buttercup]

Do you know if other countries besides Afghanistan impose such harsh penalties for renouncing Islam?

 

[Booko]

And that is exactly what I want to discuss here, you cannot get away by simply passing this statment, you have to verify, when you give a comment you need to have got reasons behind it. And yes, don't judge Islam by it's followers, you cannot judge the performance of a car just by looking at the driver

I find it useful to make a distinction between a religion as originally taught, and the current institutions of the faith.

As for Islam the faith, I find nothing wrong with it.

As for the institutions, they seem to be a bit frayed around the edges. That's hardly news in the realm of religious history.

 

[TashaN]

Actually, i wanted to talk about this issue in the other thread called "apostasy from islam" because the same question was mentioned there so i didn't want to answer two times and i didn't want for people who are interested in this issue to be confused whether to check here or there. Also as far as i noticed most of the questions in this thread is about Quran, prophet Mohammed and the valdity of both even though the thread supposed to be about islam in general. Therefore, i'll put my answers there "God willing".

(be patient i'm typing it now)


Peace ...

 

[YmirGF]

Hiya Mehrosh, I sense your thread is dying on the vine, so I thought I would help jump start it again. I will endeavor to remain on track.

Till now we didn't do justice to even one of the question raised by you. I know you have not caught my hands, but I can't type anything that comes to me mind. That will not make sense will it?

Mehrosh, for the life of me, I cannot truly fathom that kind of logic. It is as if you are saying you cannot think for yourself. NOW, in all honesty, I DO understand what you mean and I do understand that you cannot quote doctrine without checking your facts.

You didn't answer my question, in the last post

"If you discover that you like what you are hearing and you think that it is something good, are you then prepared to consider worshipping your Lord, Alone without any partners?"

You bet. I am all ears. IF you can convince me, I will be a man and admit it. I won't play games with you on that score. I should caution you before you jump up and down in glee, your chances of pulling this off are slim to nil. Forgive me, Mehrosh, but I had thought the intent of this thread was to clarify Perceptions of Islam, not about my reverting to Islam. Silly me. IF you can convince me, you will be accomplishing far more than you can imagine. Again, this thread is about Perceptions, not reversion.

but you stress on me to answer this question of yours. No problem I will, as far as I know, he never wrote anything himself, I know it doesn't proves whether he learned or he didn't, but when the Quran says he is illterate, then he is. Because whatever the Quran says is true.

Mehrosh, I understand that you believe the Qur'an is the truth of Almighty God and that his name is Allah. I have understood that for a very long time. My simple point is, I do not believe that the Qur'an IS the word of god. I believe it is the work of Muhammed and it took him a painfully long time to "bring down" such a thin volume. Now you come along and say "Whatever the Quran says is true" and I just sit here grinning. Mehrosh, if I have read the Qur'an a few times, and I do not believe it to be the true words of a god, why would I believe you because you simply insist that it is all true?

Important note: Before you get upset over that last part, I feel that that point is of vital importance in regards to PERCEPTIONS OF ISLAM. The point cuts both ways, and is wholey relevant to this spirit of this thread. Surely you must admit that we both are somewhat blinded by our perceptions of Islam, but from opposite sides of the fence.

The debate will continue on Straighten Direct Questions from me and you. Fine...do you agree...?

You have my word on it, Mehrosh. If you are up to this rather bizarre opportunity, give me a day and I will come up with some unusal, but interesting, relevant questions.

 

[steve at JRM]

What gives the Islamists the right to force their religion on others? It's as bad as the Christians running aroung the world trying to force their religion on others. What makes either group right? God will sort the wheat from the chaff. Set a good example, and others will follow. Killing people for not believing in Mohammad is not bringing glory to Allah. Leaders who take care of their people and people with ideas that end suffering are the ones who bring glory to God.

 

[Judgement Day]

Forgive me, Mehrosh, but I had thought the intent of this thread was to clarify Perceptions of Islam, not about my reverting to Islam. Silly me. IF you can convince me, you will be accomplishing far more than you can imagine. Again, this thread is about Perceptions, not reversion.

Sorry to interrupt, but for this I have to say that no one here on this forum is trying to convert you to Islam. You raised the question about the authenticity of Muhammad as the last Prophet of God(which is just one of many other perceptions of Islam), and the Quran clearly states this. Now the problem is that you don't believe that Quran is the word of God, but rather the creation of Muhammad.

Thanks and Regards.

 

[YmirGF]

Now the problem is that you don't believe that Quran is the word of God, but rather the creation of Muhammad.

You are never interrupting kind sir. You see Judgement Day, that is my point. It is ALL about perception. Muslims perceive the Qur'an as being the word of Allah. This single man, sits up and babbles that he does NOT believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah(or god). That is the point. My view IS my perception. I fully recognize that. It would be helpful if Muslims would just THINK about it for a second they would realize that their conviction that the Qur'an IS the word of Allah, is only their PERCEPTION. It doesn't particularly matter what the Qur'an has to say about the matter. Individually, you have ALL decided that the Qur'an IS the word of Allah. It is your perception and therefore you BELIEVE that it is so. I honestly don't know if I could make it any plainer. Am I being obtuse?

Btw: Mehrosh asked not once, but twice, for me to answer his question. What else exactly am I to conclude?

 

[mehrosh]

You bet. I am all ears. IF you can convince me, I will be a man and admit it. I won't play games with you on that score. I should caution you before you jump up and down in glee, your chances of pulling this off are slim to nil. Forgive me, Mehrosh, but I had thought the intent of this thread was to clarify Perceptions of Islam, not about my reverting to Islam. Silly me. IF you can convince me, you will be accomplishing far more than you can imagine. Again, this thread is about Perceptions, not reversion.

Is'nt the idea, that Quran is not the word of God a Preception, Dear? Yes it is. It if anyone clears this preception, the only way to accept is, is to accept the divine origin of the Quran. I am purely on the topic of this thread.
.

Mehrosh, I understand that you believe the Qur'an is the truth of Almighty God and that his name is Allah. I have understood that for a very long time. My simple point is, I do not believe that the Qur'an IS the word of god. I believe it is the work of Muhammed and it took him a painfully long time to "bring down" such a thin volume. Now you come along and say "Whatever the Quran says is true" and I just sit here grinning. Mehrosh, if I have read the Qur'an a few times, and I do not believe it to be the true words of a god, why would I believe you because you simply insist that it is all true?

Thanks for being here, and once again thanks for your concern about the Quran and Muhammed. Quran is that word of god, that is not what I believe, I believe it or not, or you believe it or not, It is and will stay the word of God. It proves itself, the Jews cannot reproduce the miracles of Moses, the parting of the sea, no one saw it except the people who were with him, in the same way the christians cannot prove the miracles of Jesus Christ, PBUH, we muslims believe in it, and if you ask me what is the Evidence that Muhammed was the Last messenger of God, my Evidence is the Quran.

Don't go back to whatever we have been discussing, yes I know you want me to prove that Quran is from God,

You assume that it was written down by Muhammed, sorry, but I disagree, and this is not the truth. We will discuss all the assumptions people have, to fulfill the requirment of the thread

Muhammed never lied
It is highly abnormal to challenge the testimony of a person who disclaims the responsibility of any great work. Whether it is literally, whether it be scientific or otherwise. But this is exactly what the orientalists do who doubt the origin of the Qur’an, when they say that Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) was the author. The Prophet never ever claimed that he was the author of the Qur’an. In fact, he always said that it was a revelation from Allah (SWT). To think otherwise is illogical and would mean that he was telling a lie, God forbid. History tells us that never has the prophet been ever reported of telling a lie till the prophethood that is till the age of 40. And all the people acclaimed him as a person who was honest, who was noble, who was chaste. No wonder they gave him the title Al-Ameen - the trustworthy. Friends and foes alike. Even those people who said that he was a liar, God forbid, after he claimed prophethood, even then, they kept their valuables with him for safe keeping. Then why should an honest person lie and say that the Qur’an is a word of God and that he was a prophet. Let us examine the claims made by the orientalists.

Claim of Prophethood for material gains
Some say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he attributed the Qur’an and said he was a prophet for material gains, for worldly benefits, I do agree there are several people who falsely claim to be prophets, saints and preachers for wealth. And they acquire riches and lead a luxurious life. We have several throughout the world. Prophet Muhammad was financially better off before than after prophethood. He was the nephew of the chief of Makkah, which was known for its trade, and had married a rich business woman by the name of Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her) at the age of 25. 15 years before prophethood and his life after he claimed he was a prophet was unenviable.

According to the collection of Hadith by An-Nawawi in Riyadh as Saleheen, Hadith No. 492, it says, that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) who was the wife of our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) said that there were times when one or two months would pass without having fire been lit in the house because they did not have any cooked food . They survived on water and dates and sometimes supplemented by the goat milk given by the people of Madinah. This was not just a temporary phase. It was a way of life for the prophet. According to Riyadh as Saleheen, Hadith No. 465 and 466, Hazrat Bilal (May Allah be pleased with him) he said that whenever the prophet received gifts and provision for the future he gave it to the poor and the needy and never kept it back for himself.

Then why should you doubt that the prophet told a lie, Nauzubillah for material gains. And there is a verse in the Qur’an which negates this thing. It is from Surah Al-Baqarah, Ch. No. 2, Verse No. 79, which says ‘Then vow to those who write the book with their own hands’‘And then say, this is from Allah’‘To traffic with it for a miserable price’.‘Then vow to those for what their hands do write’. ‘Then vow to those for what they earn’. This Verse is talking about the people who wrote the book with their own hands and said it is from God Almighty or they changed the words of Allah (SWT). There were every possibility that if Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) himself would have written the Qur’an and attributed it to Allah (SWT) in some point of his life, he would have been exposed. Then he would be called as the biggest hypocrite and would called as the biggest hypocrite and would be cursing himself in his own book some people say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) attributed the Qur’an to Allah (SWT) and called himself a prophet for status, for power, for glory, for leadership.

 

[mehrosh]

What are the qualities of a person who wants power, status, leadership and glory?.

He wears fancy clothes.
He eats very good food.
He lives in mansions and in monumental buildings.
He has guards etc.,
our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he milked his own goat. He mend his own clothes, he repaired his own shoes, he even many a times did the household work. He was an amazing model of simplicity and humbleness. He sat on the floor, he went to shop in the market without any guards. Even when the poor people used to invite him, he used to dine with them and eat graciously whatever was given to him. So much so that, that it is mentioned in the Qur’an in Surah Tauba, Ch. No. 9, Verse No. 61, ‘Oh! He listens to everybody what kind of a person is this who listens to every Tom, Dick and Harry’.

Once when the representative of the pagan Arab by the name of Udba. He came to the prophet and said… ‘If you give up this claim of prophethood, we will give you all the wealth in Arabia. We will make you the leader of Arabia and crown you the king. Only thing that we want is that you should give up this message that there is only one God’ and the prophet refused.There were several attempts made once through his Uncle Abu Talib that you give up your message and we will make you the wealthiest man in Arabia. The prophet said… ‘Oh! My Uncle, even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, I will not give up this mission until I die. Why should a person lead a life of such suffering and sacrifices when he was triumphant even with his advisories.? And he was so humble and noble that, at all the times of victory, he always said, it is due to the help of Allah (SWT) and not my own genius. Some of the orientalists, they come up with a new theory, that the prophet, he was suffering from Mythomania. God forbid, Mythomania is a mental disorder in which a person tells a lie and he believes in it. So they said that our prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) told a lie Nauzubillah and he believes in it.

Mythomaniac
If a psychiatrist has to treat a mythomaniac, he will pose him with facts because these people can not face facts. Suppose a person says I am the king of England. The psychiatrist will not tell him that he is crazy, he is mad. He will say okay if you are the king of England, where is your queen. He will say she is gone to my mother in laws place. Where is your minister, he has died. Where are the guards, the moment you keep on posing facts, finally the mythomaniac will say I think I am not the king of England. The Qur’an does the same. Qur’an poses the people with facts and questions. In fact it is not prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) who was Mythomaniac, it is these people who are actually Mythomaniac because they say that the prophet lied and they believe in it and Qur’an treats such people by posing facts by posing questions. If you doubt, if you think that the Qur’an has been forged, do so and so, so and so things. If you think that the Qur’an is not from Allah (SWT) what about this. It poses several questions, which we will be dealing with InshaAllah, during the course of the discussion.

Some have come up with a theory called the religious illusion theory or the sub conscious theory in which the prophet they say Nauzubillah used to form his subconscious mind, he derived the Qur’an unknowingly. And some of them said he was crazy. God forbid.

Let us analyze their claim. A person if he is suffering from the disease or if he is crazy, they fail to realize that the Qur’an was revealed during a course of time which was 23 years. The Qur’an was not revealed at one time. It was revealed over a period of 23 years in stages part by part. If this Qur’an as they claim is from a mind which is sub conscious or a crazy mind, it could not have been so consistent. And neither can a person be under the false impression that he is a prophet when everything is coming from his sub conscious mind for a period of 23 years. There are several facts in the Qur’an which can disprove this.

For example Qur’an mentions about several historical events which no one at the time of the prophet knew. There are several prophecies, which are, mentioned which have been fulfilled. There are several scientific facts which were known that time and had been confirmed today. It is impossible for these sort of facts to come out from a subconscious mind or a crazy mind. And the Qur’an testifies in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 184, ‘Do they not deflect that their companion is not one possessed with evil but he is a perpetious warner’. The Qur’an repeats in Al-Qalam, Ch. No. 68, Verse No. 2, ‘Thou is not by the grace of thy lord crazy or possessed’. It is said in Surah Tawkir, Ch. No. 81, Verse No. 22, ‘Your companion is not possessed and mad’. So why should a person lie, it is not possible to discuss all the various theories put forward by them. If any one had any new theory they are most welcome to put it during question answer time and InshaAllah, I will try my level best to clarify it.

Did Muhammed copy it from other religious scriptures
The second assumption is that the prophet copied it from other religious scriptures or he got it from some human source. One historical fact is sufficient to prove this theory wrong. That is out beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he was an illiterate and Qur’an testified in Surah Ankabut, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 48, that those was not able to recite any book before this book was revealed, nor was thou able to transcribe it before this. In that case indeed the talkers of vanities would have doubted. Allah (SWT) knew that people would doubt the source of the Qur’an. That is the reason that in his divine wisdom, he chose his last and final messenger Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) to be an Ummi, an illiterate and unlettered prophet. Otherwise, surely, the talkers of vanities, the babblers in the market place would have something to say and if the prophet was literate, the critics, the cynics would have had some weight to say that the prophet copied it from somewhere else and rehatched it in a new form, Nauzubillah! But even this claim is denied. the verses of the Qur’an from Surah Sajdah, Ch. No. 32, Verse No. 1 to 3…Arabic… ‘Alif lam meem’. ‘This is the revelation of book without doubt from the lord of the worlds. Do they say he has forged it? Nay! It is a truth from thy lord, so that thou may admonish a people to whom no warner was sent before. So that they may receive some guidance’.

 

[mehrosh]

Quran is Unlike any book

The Qur’an is unlike any other religious scriptures which has a typical human type of narration like a storybook. How does the storybook begin? It begins with once upon a time, foxes and grapes, wolf and the lamb. Similarly, if you read other scriptures, it says, in the beginning was God, he made the heavens and the earth. In the beginning was the word. It may say now it came to pass as though so it happened. The Qur’an does not have such human narration in the beginning was so and so and if you read the other religious scriptures, they have a typical sequence of the human narration’s.

The Qur’an has its own unique style. It is a unique book. The people who cannot prove that Qur’an is a work of a human being then they finally come up and say that the Qur’an is the deception? They will not be able to point out a single deception in the whole Qur’an. People they believe in things for which they have got no proof or reason. And they fool themselves but stick into it.

Qur’an says that the revelation goes in parallel with reason. Some people says that holy scriptures, they are beyond reasoning if they are beyond reasoning, then how can we decipher, which of the Holy Scriptures are true and which are false.

The Qur’an infact encourages reasoning, it encourages a discussion. Many Muslims feel that you should avoid religious discussions. You should avoid getting into a dialogue where religion is concerned. And they are sadly mistaken. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16, Verse No. 125…Arabic… that is, ‘Invite all to the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them and reason with them in the ways that are best and most gracious’.

Qur’an encourages discussion, encourages reasoning. No wonder the Arabic words ‘Qalu’ which means they say is mentioned 332 times and the Arabic word ‘Qul’ which means say is also mentioned 332 times. This proves that the Qur’an encourages discussion. There is a theory known as exhausting the alternatives. The Qur’an says that this book, this book the Qur’an it is a revelation from God Almighty. If it is not, then what is it? You give the other alternative.

Some may say it is a handiwork of Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him). It has been disproved. Some may say he lied for material gain Nauzubillah! That has been disproved whatever claims they have got, put forth and see whether they stand the test.

This is the Qur’an it is a book. It is paper and ink where is it confirmed it requires an explanation. The scientific community, they have a different approach. If any one has a new theory, they say we do not have time to listen. And they have a reason for that. They say, that if you have a new theory do not bring it to me unless you have a way unless you have a test to prove your theory wrong. Unless you do not have a way or a test to prove your theory wrong, I do not have time to waste with you.

Test the Quran...if you are truthful
Albert Einstein in the beginning of the century, when he gave a new theory that I feel the universe works like that along with the theory he gave 3 falsification test saying that if you think my theory is wrong do these three things and my theory will be proved wrong. The scientists, they examined it for 6 years and then said yes the theory of Albert Einstein is correct. That does not mean that he is great person. It means he deserves a listening.

Qur’an has several such falsification tests. When you get into discussion in future, with anyone regarding religion, you have to ask him, that do you have a way to prove your religion? Believe me I have not come across any person who has told me that I have a way to prove my religion wrong. The Qur’an has, the Qur’an has several falsification tests. Some of them were only meant for the past. Some of them are applicable for all times. Let me give you a few examples.

1. Abu Lahab
The Prophet had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. He was the staunchest opponent of the Prophet. Whenever the Prophet spoke to any stranger, he used to follow the Prophet, the moment the Prophet departed he used to go to the stranger and ask what did the Prophet tell you. Did he say it is day, it is night. Did he say it is black, it is white. He spoke exactly the opposite of what the Prophet said.

And there is a full chapter Surah Lahab, Ch. No. 111, of the Qur’an which was revealed and it says that Abu Lahab and his wife, they will perish in hell. And it says indirectly that people will never except Islam. They will never become Muslims. This Surah was revealed 10 years before the death of Abu Lahab. In that span of time, many of his friends who were also opponents of Islam embraced Islam. But Abu Lahab did not embrace Islam. Since he used to lie always against the prophet the only thing he had to do to prove the Qur’an wrong was to say I am a Muslim. He did not have to behave like a Muslim. He did not have to act like a Muslim. He only had to say I am a Muslim and the Qur’an would have been proved wrong. It was so easy for him to prove the Qur’an wrong. Since he had lied before, he just had to say an additional lie. It is as though the prophet is telling him. You think I am your enemy, come on say this say I am a Muslim and I will be proved wrong. It was so easy. But he did not say it. It is proved that no human being can make such a statement in his book. It has to be a divine revelation.

2. Jews

Another such example is in Surah Al-Baqarah, Ch. No. 2, Verse No. 94 and 95, which says that they say that the last home of Allah is with them alone. It is meant for them alone and no one else and the Qur’an continues. Tell them that if the last home for Allah is for them alone tell them to seek for death. They will never seek for death because of the sins they have committed. This was revealed during a discussion during a confrontation between the Jews and the Muslims and the Jews said that the last home of Allah that is the paradise is for the Jews alone and not for anyone else. So a verse was revealed saying that if you think that paradise is specially meant only for the Jews you call for death, seek for death. The only thing the Jews had to do at that time anyone of them any one of those Jews a single person would have come out and said I seek for death. I want to die not that he had to die, not that he had to act only thing he had to do was seek for death. Say I want to die and the Qur’an would have been proved wrong. It has so easy to prove the Qur’an wrong but none of the Jews came forward and said that I seek for death.

It is a falsification test. But now you may tell me, that all these tests are of the past how can we prove the Qur’an wrong today if you want to prove it wrong Qur’an has tests, falsification tests which are also meant for all times.

 

[mehrosh]

What gives the Islamists the right to force their religion on others? It's as bad as the Christians running aroung the world trying to force their religion on others. What makes either group right? God will sort the wheat from the chaff. Set a good example, and others will follow. Killing people for not believing in Mohammad is not bringing glory to Allah. Leaders who take care of their people and people with ideas that end suffering are the ones who bring glory to God.

Hi,

Well, I am pleased that you asked me about Islam, well I don't know any Islamists who are forcing people to accept Islam. If they are really doing this, I am sorry to say that they are not following the Quran and the Prophet's way.

My dear, Islam enters as faith into the hearts of the people, you cannot forcibly change the heart of any person. If you torture anyone and tell him to accept Islam, maybe he will say that I am a Muslim, but in truth it will not be from the heart, thus he is not a muslims.

The Quran says "there is no compulsion in religion, truth withstands falsehood". The verse makes it clear that noone can force anyone to accept any religion. And forcing was not the way of the Prophet, he would simply convey what he had, and the people would turn up to him to ask question. It was their choice whether to accept it or reject it.

God says in the Quran, "it is you choice, accept the truth or reject it"

I will end by saying, today only in America, the statics show that 400-500 people are accepting Islam everyday. I ask you, which muslim is roaming in the streats of America holding a sword and telling them to accept Islam?

Thanks
Regards
Mehrosh

 

[mehrosh]

YmirGF is quite right when he says that the thread is dying, when the people get the answers to their preceptions about Islam, they never turn up.

"When falsehood is heard against truth, falsehood persishes, because it is bound by its nature to be perished" Surah Isra

 

[DakotaGypsy]

It has been argued that the Christian in Afghanistan is persecuted under Afghan law, not Islamic law.

I must ask:

Why does Islamic law bow before Afghan law?

Where is the submission to Allah?

 

[YmirGF]

YmirGF is quite right when he says that the thread is dying, when the people get the answers to their preceptions about Islam, they never turn up.

"When falsehood is heard against truth, falsehood persishes, because it is bound by its nature to be perished" Surah Isra

Mehrosh,

Your incredibly long winded response regarding the authenticity of the Quran holds no water. You fail to understand why it does not. Perhaps you are not capable of thinking beyond the limitations of your self imposed perceptions, all the while thinking they are realities.

Hopelessly clinging to the argument that The Noble Qur'an is the defacto word of God BECAUSE IT IS the WORD of GOD, is a rather narrow thinking. Is this supposed to be considered to be meaningful thought? It simply reminds me of a cat endlessly chasing its tail.

Example:

I announce to the universe that my ASHTRAY is GOD. IT is GOD because IT IS GOD. This is not open to interpretation. My ASHTRAY is God incarnate, because IT IS. Failure to accept my ASHTRAY as being god will result in dire consequences for the non believer. I am the Messenger of the ASHTRAY that IS God. Dare you NOT believe, lest you be smote by the crushing of the cigarette of oblivion?
.

Now... in this LUDICROUS example, I am insisting that my ASHTRAY IS GOD. I offer no independant proof that it is so. I do not need to. The Ashtray is after all, GOD. Take it, or leave it. What is to stop me from writing a thin volume espousing the reality of THE ASTRAY that IS god? Nothing. No doubt some fools would actually buy into such a silly idea.

Insisting that the Qur'an is the word of god, because it IS the word of god, is not helpful, nor is it very wise. In effect, you are saying, it is so... take it or leave it. Sorry Mehrosh, that doesn't work and it is not logical. In contrast, just because 1.2 billion people BELIEVE it is the word of god, does not make it so. You do understand that, right?

What I am trying to demonstrate to you is your own perceptions and the flaws therein. What you do not understand is that your logic is paper thin. You cite "authorities" and instances that are self supporting. If you remove the original premise they are based on... the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

Pity you cannot see it. This thread perfectly outlines the limitations of Islamic thought and global Islamic perception. You see, Mehrosh, I knew from the moment I entered this discussion that there was no possibility of me "winning" the arguments. I have locked horns with people far more intelligent than the intelligence you are demonstrating, but sadly, to the same ends.

I will tell you that Islam blinds, rather than frees, and I point at this thread as perfect proof to that cyclical, barren, understanding. If anyone reads this thread from stem to stern, they will clearly see the intractable nature of Islamic thinking.

My work here is done. You have hung yourself perfectly. Go back, read it and weep. Maybe then you will understand, although that is not likely. The simple fact is, you do not WANT to understand anything more than what you have already accepted.

Have a nice life Mehrosh, our conversation is terminated. You are welcome to the last word. No doubt you will use that space to bury yourself further. You have only confirmed MY perceptions of Islam are dead on the money.

 

[Booko]

The perception of Islam around the world at the moment is that it breeds violent followers. Please name me one place I could look at and say, yes Islam works, look how wonderful it is.

Dearborn, MI.

Satisfied?
















...no, I didn't think so.

 

[Booko]

I did not notice much saying "Peace!", when the Muslims replied to the Ignorant who published defamatory cartoons of the prophet Muhhamad.................(Double standards?)

Michel: Perhaps you should have paid more attention to the Muslims in this country?

 

[DakotaGypsy]

By the way, this Atheist gets along quite nicely with the Muslims I know.

Fortunately, because I am a woman, I am disdained by hateful Muslims who do not respect women and other religions. Not to mention hateful Catholics and other Christians.

 

[tkdrocks]

Dear Members,The title says it, I welcome you to criticize anything you think is wrong with Islam. But I have a request, if we discuss one point at a time, we can do justice with the topic...Thankyou, and regards, Mehrosh

I will do my best to stay on topic. First, I will say that it is nearly impossible to separate Muslims from Islam. Without Muslims, there is no Islam. It is much like trying to separate the water from a river. While it is true that not all water is from rivers, all rivers possess water. The relationship is undeniable.

Thus it is human nature to compare followers of an idea to the original idea itself. I do the same to the Christian Religion as well as Shintoism, Buddhism, or what ever religious philosophy is used.

I will address some of the messages previously posted and ask some specific questions on Islam as well.