Perceptions of Islam

[*Paul*]

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:

Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.234



Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.234


Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064



Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.088

Book 008, Number 3311: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.


Chapter 11: EXCELLENCE OF MARRYING OR BEING MARRIED DURING THE MONTH OF SHAWWAL AND EXCELLENCE OF TAKING BRIDE IN THE HOUSE DURING THIS MONTH

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3311

Tarikh al-Tabari
According to Aisha:
My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me." ... "(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died". Tabari, Volume 9, Page 131
​

 

[Sunstone]

By all accounts, Lady Aisha shows none of the symptoms of someone who was sexually abused as a child. Moreover, she lived a full and productive life both during her time with the Prophet and afterwards. What more is there to know?

 

[TashaN]

Thanks dear astarath for your great posts which i saw most of it in several threads, you seems to be a true believer in God and a good representative of your faith, for the love you spread amongst people around you. I respect that in you, and wish that all your fellows are like yourself.

I just have some comments about your post regardinng the issue of sin and Prophets from an islamic perspective. I hope you won't mind me addressing them.

This is the point to which you lay confused, the man was deemed worthy of respect by God. That does not say that his actions were all with integrity and without sin.

We believe that Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" was sinless.

Moses was a murderer and a worshipper of false idols, yet he was deemed worthy to be the deliverer of God's people.

It's true that Moses killed someone but it was by mistake, then God forgave him, and we believe that no Prophet ever was a worshipper of false idols, but his people did when he left them with his brother Aron.

[51] And remember We appointed forty nights for Musa, and in his absence you took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.


[52] Even then We did forgive you, there was a chance for you to be grateful.


[53] And remember We gave Musa the Scripture and the Criterion (between right and wrong), there was a chance for you to be guided aright.


[54] And remember Musa said to his people: "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: so turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. (Quran 2:51-54)

 

[TashaN]

Go to Saudi Arabia, the place on earth where Islam began, where it's holiest shrine is, this is where true Islam is practiced if anywhere on earth where the population is all Muslim or near enough.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/saudi_arabia/concerns.html

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/saudi/justice.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia

If you want to make up a new religion and call it peacful, go ahead but Islam is a well established religion and is given full liberty to be practiced in Saudi Arabia, clearly different to the one the propagandists try to portray here and elsewhere in the west.

This is not the Political forum. You can post in here if you want to talk about specific countries policies.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=35

 

[*Paul*]

The laws of Saudi Arabia are in place because of it's religion:

The situation of human rights in Saudi Arabia is generally considered to be woeful. Under the authoritarian rule of the Saudi royal family, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has enforced strict laws under a doctrine of Wahabism (a fundamentalist interpretation of sharia, Islamic religious law).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

So i feel i posted what i did in the right place thank you.

 

[TashaN]

Regrading what the links you posted try to show, i can prove it to be wrong but as i told you, this is not the political forum. If you started a new thread about Saudi Arabia in a proper forum so don't hesitate to PM me to direct me to that thread.

The laws of Saudi Arabia are in place because of it's religion

Saudi Arabia is not the only Muslim country in the whole world. hmmmm i know you are not a Catholic but you sound like one, because you got a wrong idea about what is Islam and it's law. There is no Pope or somthing like high authority which deicde for people how to approach God because as Prophet Mohammed said "in the meaning of the hadith", no clerigy in Islam. So, Saudi Arabia is just a country which *claim* that she follow Islam as any other Muslim country. I don't know why it's so difficult to understand that.

 

[LogDog]

Mehrosh,

Your incredibly long winded response regarding the authenticity of the Quran holds no water. You fail to understand why it does not. Perhaps you are not capable of thinking beyond the limitations of your self imposed perceptions, all the while thinking they are realities.

Hopelessly clinging to the argument that The Noble Qur'an is the defacto word of God BECAUSE IT IS the WORD of GOD, is a rather narrow thinking. Is this supposed to be considered to be meaningful thought? It simply reminds me of a cat endlessly chasing its tail.

Example:

I announce to the universe that my ASHTRAY is GOD. IT is GOD because IT IS GOD. This is not open to interpretation. My ASHTRAY is God incarnate, because IT IS. Failure to accept my ASHTRAY as being god will result in dire consequences for the non believer. I am the Messenger of the ASHTRAY that IS God. Dare you NOT believe, lest you be smote by the crushing of the cigarette of oblivion?
.

Now... in this LUDICROUS example, I am insisting that my ASHTRAY IS GOD. I offer no independant proof that it is so. I do not need to. The Ashtray is after all, GOD. Take it, or leave it. What is to stop me from writing a thin volume espousing the reality of THE ASTRAY that IS god? Nothing. No doubt some fools would actually buy into such a silly idea.

Insisting that the Qur'an is the word of god, because it IS the word of god, is not helpful, nor is it very wise. In effect, you are saying, it is so... take it or leave it. Sorry Mehrosh, that doesn't work and it is not logical. In contrast, just because 1.2 billion people BELIEVE it is the word of god, does not make it so. You do understand that, right?

What I am trying to demonstrate to you is your own perceptions and the flaws therein. What you do not understand is that your logic is paper thin. You cite "authorities" and instances that are self supporting. If you remove the original premise they are based on... the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

Pity you cannot see it. This thread perfectly outlines the limitations of Islamic thought and global Islamic perception. You see, Mehrosh, I knew from the moment I entered this discussion that there was no possibility of me "winning" the arguments. I have locked horns with people far more intelligent than the intelligence you are demonstrating, but sadly, to the same ends.

I will tell you that Islam blinds, rather than frees, and I point at this thread as perfect proof to that cyclical, barren, understanding. If anyone reads this thread from stem to stern, they will clearly see the intractable nature of Islamic thinking.

My work here is done. You have hung yourself perfectly. Go back, read it and weep. Maybe then you will understand, although that is not likely. The simple fact is, you do not WANT to understand anything more than what you have already accepted.

Have a nice life Mehrosh, our conversation is terminated. You are welcome to the last word. No doubt you will use that space to bury yourself further. You have only confirmed MY perceptions of Islam are dead on the money.

I've done the whole stem to stern thing on this thread and feel it important to give YmirGF's post a little more exposure. His questioning of islam exposes the lunacy of its foundation and has indeed given me a better understanding and appreciation for the intractable nature of islamic thinking. The general discussion also leads me to make a couple personal observations.

It is the radical islamic fundamentalist who puts action to word in a bid to rid the world of the infidel. With means and opportunity these people will destroy us. They believe they are just. They believe they are acting in accordance with their religion and they believe their interpretations are righteous. It could be argued that these people are not following "true islam" but I don't think they'd agree with such an assertion and honestly, what difference does it make? If only half a percent of the 1.2 billion followers of this ideology have adopted these radical views, we're looking at over 5 million individuals who'd revel in our annihilation. Is there not a point at which bigotry becomes reasonable? For me, the progression of islam represents an increase in the number of people who want me dead.

I found one post very telling when the discussion came to islam's contribution to the world. Someone asked if anyone could give an example of a follower of islam who is globally recognized and regarded as a person who has made a significant contribution to the betterment of mankind in some way or form. Of the 1.2 billion followers, how many world renowned architects, physicists, film makers, painters, engineers, biologist or doctors were identified? I recall none. What does this suggest about the religion as a whole? Does the submission to islam not impede the nature of man?

 

[yuvgotmel]

That's because i wasn't there with them before 1400 years a go to know how old she was, plus that there are various opnions about how old she was. But the most important thing is that, Muslims don't care about this issue because our time is not like their time in the past and we can't judge what we can't see.

Why is it that Muslims "don't care" about that action (of Mohammed marrying a child) due to the culture of that "time in the past," yet Muslims are adhereing to and preaching the adherance to the rules set forth from that "time in the past"? It seems like a contridictory approach.

 

[maro]

Why is it that Muslims "don't care" about that action (of Mohammed marrying a child) due to the culture of that "time in the past," yet Muslims are adhereing to and preaching the adherance to the rules set forth from that "time in the past"? It seems like a contridictory approach.

arabic girls in general used to marry at young age , it's not only at the time of the prophet (PbUh) ,
but also till the time of my grandmother , who was married at the age of 15

so ,it's not an invention , and it's not strange for arabs

but the strange thing nowadays , is to see ladies that have reached the 30's without marriage , and the reason for that is the bad economical state for the youth , and the difficulty to balance between the university life and the family life

 

[maro]

i would like to add that islam encourages early marriage for both genders , if the conditions allows ,so that they can keep their modesty and avoid adultery with all its forms ,
and live properly as good examples of islam , without any distractions or tempetations

 

[love]

I didnt know anything about Islam until maybe ten years ago.But from what I understand is that Islam sees Muhammed as the last and most reliable of all the prophets. They acknowledge the Divine Birth of Jesus Christ of a virgin. They see Abraham as the first man to truly seek God. They see Moses as a man who spoke to God.
Islam doesn't seem that much off from what I believe.
But I can tell you this as a fact; I have no interest in living in a country ruled by Sharia Law as it is out of date and does not fit the twenty first century.
One of the problems I have with Islamc worship of Muhammed is his sexual appetite.
I know that muslims say they do not worship Muhhamed but that is not what I see.
But may peace may with every soul that seeks God.

 

[*Paul*]

Islam doesn't seem that much off from what I believe.

The crucifixion? The Ressurection? (without which your faith is worthless)The trinity? On what grounds does God forgive us? These are some of the important differences and i would lovingly adjure you to look at the differences more closely lest you fall into the error that some misguided Christians have fallen into - calling muslims brothers and sisters in faith.

 

[Peace]

But I can tell you this as a fact; I have no interest in living in a country ruled by Sharia Law as it is out of date and does not fit the twenty first century.

I don't agree with you here, for Islam does fit every time and place.

One of the problems I have with Islamc worship of Muhammed is his sexual appetite.
I know that muslims say they do not worship Muhhamed but that is not what I see.

We Muslims do not worship Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. We do respect him and do revere him and love him more than we do love any human beings, Yes, but we don't worship him in any sense. We do worship God alone, no one but Allah.

You talked about sexual appetite, what do you mean? Don't you know that Prophet Muhammad married the first time at the age of 25 lady Khadija who was fifteen years older than him?
Don't you know that he never got married anyone while being married to Khadija and that lasted for 25 year till the death of Khadija.
After her death he kept faithful to her and it was people who asked him to marry again, and do you know who he married? Sawdah who was much older than he was. After that all the marriages that follow even his marriage to Lady Aicha were by the command of Allah, for the sake of spreading the message of Islam through different marriages from different tribes.
His marriage to Lady Aicha who was at the age of 9 and was very common at that time. People used to marry at a young age. Just go and read his biography and you will not find a single critic at that time by the unbelievers who were using every opportunity to hurt him and disbelieve him. They didn't see in his marriage to Aicha any offense otherwise they would have use it to criticise him. Even Safiya, the daughter of the chief of a Jewish tribe, and who was to be the wife of the Prophet, married for the first time a person from her tribe when she was 9 years old. That was very common then.
Lady Aicha was 9 years old but she was a the age of puberty, for girls at that time and in that place, a desert climate, used to reach the age of puberty at a very early age.

Peace

 

[maro]

.But from what I understand is that Islam sees Muhammed as the last and most reliable of all the prophets.

all prophets (Pbuh) are reliable in islam , there is no prophet more reliable than another ,
they all sincerly conveyed the messege from God

They acknowledge the Divine Birth of Jesus Christ of a virgin.

i don't know what do you mean by (divine birth ) , but yes we believe that jesus was born with no father ,
and that's why the quran refers to him by the name of his mother

They see Abraham as the first man to truly seek God.

this is not true ,
we believe there were many prophets before Abraham (Pbuh) , so he was not the first

They see Moses as a man who spoke to God.

yes , because he was a prophet too (PBuh)

But I can tell you this as a fact; I have no interest in living in a country ruled by Sharia Law as it is out of date and does not fit the twenty first century.

actually ,muslims used to listen to such kind of comments , all the time

but to be honest , we don't care much , because we believe the sharia laws are from God , and that they are the best rules that can rule a society ever

and i also believe , that those who say that about the sharia have no knowledge about the misery of western societies which don't apply the sharia ,

and how horrible the rates of adultery , rape , and sexual abuse in these societies

this is not my opinion , but this is what their governmental reports say

One of the problems I have with Islamc worship of Muhammed is his sexual appetite.

i think sister Peace clarified that very well ,
i , myself , don't think about somone who was married to a lady much older than him , for more than 2o years , to be like you said

i really , hope people take their time to read the biography of Prophet Muhammed (PBuh) , before they make such comments

I know that muslims say they do not worship Muhhamed but that is not what I see.

you are free to see whatever you like ,
but actually we don't worship anyone but god ,
although we have great love to our prophet (PBuh) ,because he sufferd so much , so that we can be muslims,
he is God's mercy to us , and to mankind

But may peace may with every soul that seeks God.

Ameen

 

[love]

I guess my perception of Islam is off the mark. Maybe it is not as closely related to Christianity as I thought. But I still cling to my belief that implementation of Sharia Law would put serious limitations on basic human rights as I know and cherish them. Maybe someone who has not lived in a free society can not comprehend this. I believe Jesus Christ has set me free and I intend to remain that way.

 

[yuvgotmel]

We Muslims do not worship Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. We do respect him and do revere him and love him more than we do love any human beings, ....

You talked about sexual appetite, what do you mean?

You love Mohammed more than your own spouse???

...your children, your parents and so on?

 

[Peace]

You love Mohammed more than your own spouse???

...your children, your parents and so on?

My parents are the dearest persons to me on this earth, but when it comes to Prophet Muhammad pbuh I do love him and without doubt more than I love my parents, my family and my self to the extent that I would sacrifice everything for his sake, and I would be the happiest one on this earth if I were his servant serving him day and night. May peace and blessing of Allah be upon him my beloved!! Really words cannot express my love for him.

Peace

 

[TashaN]

The crucifixion? The Ressurection? (without which your faith is worthless)The trinity? On what grounds does God forgive us? These are some of the important differences and i would lovingly adjure you to look at the differences more closely lest you fall into the error that some misguided Christians have fallen into - calling muslims brothers and sisters in faith.

We all say, One God. God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Mohammed, and all the prophets of Allah mentioned in his scriptures.

Is this the same God or not?

I do agree that there is differences but we worship the same God my friend along with the Jews as you know.

Islam sees Muhammed as the last and most reliable of all the prophets.

[285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (Quran 2:285)

 

[TashaN]

You love Mohammed more than your own spouse???

...your children, your parents and so on?

Yes, and all Muslims should do so as well or they won't be considred to be believers if they didn't.

By the way, sister Peace is from the descendants of Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him".

 

[Sahar]

You love Mohammed more than your own spouse???

...your children, your parents and so on?

Yes, more than our spouses, our children, our parents and ourselves!
To be believers, our love for Allah (swt) and for his prophet (pbuh) should be greater than anyone or anything else in this world!
Our love for prophet Muhammad is running throughout our bodies just like the blood running into our vessels.
[SIZE=-1] we just wish if we can see him in our dreams even for only a second...we wish to be with him in Heaven![/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Every time, we hear or read about him, our love for him grows in our hearts more and more..when his name is mentioned, we pray upon him (sAaw)!
Why not and he is the one who taught us "there is no God but Allah" ..he underwent all types of suffering to convey Allah's message to us, if you knew him, you won't ask this Question!![/SIZE]
If our love to anything else is greater than our love for the prophet, then this only indicates weakness of faith;
Listen to what the prophet said;[SIZE=-1]"None of you becomes a believer until I am dearer to him than his children, his parents and all mankind."
And Allah subhanahu wata'ala says in his Book;
"[/SIZE]The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers." Holy Quran
[SIZE=-1] we are trying to be 1/1000 of his kindness, his compassion, his forgiveness...
In Macca, a man called Fodalah who hated[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] the prophet (pbuh)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], he took his dagger and tried to come closer to the prophet in order to kill him, the prophet looked to him and said "Fodalah...what do you say to yourself?" Fodalah said: "I was invocating Allah.."!!! the prophet smiled to him and said "Ask forgiveness from Allah!" then he put his hand on Fodalah's chest and fodalah himself said "[/SIZE]I swear by Allah, when he (i.e the prophet) raised his hand from my chest, there is no-one is more beloved to me than him" although he intended to kill him a few moments ago!!
[SIZE=-1]
Some muslims think that by saying "i love the Prophet" means they really love him :no: Loving the prophet is by praying as he did, fasting as he did, helping the poor as he did, smiling at people's faces as he did, by being mercy for the whole world as he was, still he is and he will always be, even on the day of resurrection....

If the muslims of today loved Allah and his prophet more than anything else, they wouldn't be in this weakness and humiliation. If we followed teachings of Islam, we wouldn't be as we are now; our lands are invaded, our children are killed, women are raped.... the muslim blood became the cheapest blood right now, very easy to kill muslims by thousands and all this weakness is only because we left what brings our glory; Islam!

If we are going to talk about Muhammad (pbuh) then we need hundreds of pages, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]If your interested to know him (pbuh); (Peace's link )
[/SIZE]http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/
[SIZE=-1]
Peace and blessings be upon you, my beloved Prophet!
[/SIZE]