Perceptions of Islam

[Laila]

Well, it is nice to see you have a sense of humor, for surely this line of thinking is a joke. One can only wonder how much we are expected to choke down before it all makes sense. What people fail to grasp is that it does not matter what they think about Islam itself. The real point is if one believes Muhammed.

If one agrees that Muhammed was telling the truth and acted as a Final Messenger from God/Allah then Islam must be taken at face value. Submit and swallow. If, however, one does not believe that Muhammed was in fact a messenger from God, let alone the Final Messenger, then Islam collapses in on itself like a delusional house of cards.

With all due respect, I view Muhammed as a brilliant con artist, who was eventually seduced by his own confidence game. The con was conned by the con.

It is never submit and swallow - whatever gave you that idea
It is more think, ponder, reflect, use your reasoning and if one still doesn't believe then each to their own. Submitting can never be forced.

 

[Laila]

And, Judgment Day, will I be stoned for being an Atheist if Muslims take over the world?

With the conduct in some Muslim Countries - I'm sure you will. However, since this thread is about perceptions - is this really what Islam is.
Stone those that leave Islam/ or choose to be Atheist; it certainly isn't. Do Muslims countries best represent or follow Islam? Sadly, I'm afraid not.

 

[Laila]

As long as women are persecuted in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and other repressive Muslim nations, I cannot be silent.

I will not be silent.

Neither, will I.

 

[Laila]

Are the Taliban a good example of how Muslims should live? I am just trying to get a barometer of the feelings here.

Barring women from an education and telling them to wear a tent; a firm no from me!

 

[Laila]

Strangely enough I 100% agree... But I have yet to see one single place on earth where Islam works. All Islamic countries have serious Human rights problems.

Unfortunately they do, and Muslims need to face up to this reality. However, from reading Djamila's posts perhaps Bosnia would be an exception here.

The very meaning of the word is abhorrent to me - Submission. What a crappy way to live life. In submission.

What does submission mean to a Muslim? The lifestyle one chooses is their system of living. When Muslims submit we are choosing the lifestyle according to the system of God.
It might still be a crappy way to live in your opinion, you're entitled to it.

 

[Laila]

What do I think is wrong about Islam? I think Islam suffers from the same thing that Christianity has suffered from at times...hijacking.

Unfortunately Islam is getting a pretty bad wrap from Muslim Extremists. To add to that, I don't see moderate Muslims up in arms in protest. What are followers of Islam doing to counter the ones who have hijacked their religion?

really just kidding, but this cartoon is hilarious

 

[YmirGF]

It is never submit and swallow - whatever gave you that idea
It is more think, ponder, reflect, use your reasoning and if one still doesn't believe then each to their own. Submitting can never be forced.

I admit, Merosh was such an easy target that I got a bit carried away on this post/thread.

However, the fact still remains. One either believes Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] or one does not. It is pretty cut and dried. If any person believes in the authenticity of his "Prophethood" then by simple logic they should, stress SHOULD, "revert" to Islam. It is the only rational thing to do.

IF, instead, one does not accept Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] as an authentic Prophet of God Almighty then it is quite impossible to accept Islam, period.

It is pretty straight-forward.

There are only 3 "prophets" or manifestations of God that I personally accept, period.
The three are: Krsna, Buddha and Jesus, the Christ.

There are also 3 "lesser prophets" that I accept as bona fide, but not of the same magnitude.

Babaji (of Paramahansa Yogananda fame), Meher Baba & Seth

There is one being that is yet to appear.
This is the returning "Christ"; a man who will not claim to be Christ.

Sadly, to this small being of light, "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] doesn't even enter into the picture, nor will he, ever. "Legend" has it that "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] has felt terribly guilty about his antics during his sojourn on Earth and had endeavored to make restitution for his fraud ever since. How do I know this? That is for me to know and for you to find out. Allah knows best.

I am not going to argue this point, but I thought clarification was in order.

 

[Laila]

well, i have a few muslim friends and all of them are great. i think the only possible thing that i dont like about islam is that some of the leaders of middle eastern countries misuse it... they use fear to control the people for their own perverted needs. but thats a problem with the governments over there, not islam.

at last, good post.

 

[Laila]

I admit, Merosh was such an easy target that I got a bit carried away on this post/thread.

However, the fact still remains. One either believes Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] or one does not. It is pretty cut and dried. If any person believes in the authenticity of his "Prophethood" then by simple logic they should, stress SHOULD, "revert" to Islam. It is the only rational thing to do.

IF, instead, one does not accept Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] as an authentic Prophet of God Almighty then it is quite impossible to accept Islam, period.

It is pretty straight-forward.

There are only 3 "prophets" or manifestations of God that I personally accept, period.
The three are: Krsna, Buddha and Jesus, the Christ.

There are also 3 "lesser prophets" that I accept as bona fide, but not of the same magnitude.

Babaji (of Paramahansa Yogananda fame), Meher Baba & Seth

There is one being that is yet to appear.
This is the returning "Christ"; a man who will not claim to be Christ.

Sadly, to this small being of light, "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] doesn't even enter into the picture, nor will he, ever. "Legend" has it that "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] has felt terribly guilty about his antics during his sojourn on Earth and had endeavored to make restitution for his fraud ever since. How do I know this? That is for me to know and for you to find out. Allah knows best.

I am not going to argue this point, but I thought clarification was in order.

If people don't believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as a Prophet that is their call - I don't ask them to; all I ask is don't slander him. Thanks for the clarification, but I refuse to listen to what is not supported by evidence.

 

[YmirGF]

If people don't believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as a Prophet that is their call - I don't ask them to; all I ask is don't slander him. Thanks for the clarification, but I refuse to listen to what is not supported by evidence.

The evidence is before your eyes and yet you do not see.

In all fairness Laila, if all Muslims were like you and Djamila, you would never hear me say a word about Islam. The truth is, you are vastly outnumbered as evidenced in your own threads on Islam and the reactions that you got from your fellow "highminded" Muslims.

 

[Laila]

The evidence is before your eyes and yet you do not see.

In all fairness Laila, if all Muslims were like you and Djamila, you would never hear me say a word about Islam. The truth is, you are vastly outnumbered as evidenced in your own threads on Islam and the reactions that you got from your fellow "highminded" Muslims.

I need you to elaborate Ymir, let us not get bog downed with refering the wonderful people on RF - you're going to get me in trouble! You speak the truth regarding some of my threads but this is not a wide representation of Muslims, so yes I'm almost flying off the see-saw.

The truth when it comes to religion is the key to living, which is "those who believe and do good deeds" so the dual function of responsibilty in life is one towards God and the other towards other beings. So a Jewish person following the Torah is just as valid as a Muslim person following the Quran, there is only one God (my opinion)and all differences will be revealed by God alone. As a Muslim, I believe that the Quran is the last complete revelation - does that mean everyone should believe it? One needs to explore the different beliefs (without prejudice) and settle with the one that they feel speaks the truth to them, and if that means that the person decides that Islam is not for them- each to their own.

 

[!Fluffy!]

I need you to elaborate Ymir, let us not get bog downed with refering the wonderful people on RF - you're going to get me in trouble! You speak the truth regarding some of my threads but this is not a wide representation of Muslims, so yes I'm almost flying off the see-saw.

The truth when it comes to religion is the key to living, which is "those who believe and do good deeds" so the dual function of responsibilty in life is one towards God and the other towards other beings. So a Jewish person following the Torah is just as valid as a Muslim person following the Quran, there is only one God (my opinion)and all differences will be revealed by God alone. As a Muslim, I believe that the Quran is the last complete revelation - does that mean everyone should believe it? One needs to explore the different beliefs (without prejudice) and settle with the one that they feel speaks the truth to them, and if that means that the person decides that Islam is not for them- each to their own.

Then, following your line of reasoning, if I am a Muslim, and I explore the different beliefs, and if I decide to renounce Islam and follow Christ:
that is a valid decision which will be respected by all Muslims.

Is that a correct statement?

 

[Laila]

Then, following your line of reasoning, if I am a Muslim, and I explore the different beliefs, and if I decide to renounce Islam and follow Christ:
that is a valid decision which will be respected by all Muslims.

Is that a correct statement?

Correct! you should not be killed as what happens in some countries.

Why should you not be respected as a fellow human being? your choice- your bag - your accountability to God, nothing to do with anyone else.

 

[Laila]

will be be respected by all Muslims, I missed this bit, no doubt some will (sadly) probably try to kill you - but this is not Islam.

 

[!Fluffy!]

will be be respected by all Muslims, I missed this bit, no doubt some will (sadly) probably try to kill you - but this is not Islam.

Then what is it? (thank you Laila for answering, and no I am not trying to start anything but just trying to get at the marrow of the bone).

 

[Laila]

Then what is it? (thank you Laila for answering, and no I am not trying to start anything but just trying to get at the marrow of the bone).

I know you're not Moon Woman, we've had a bit of a 'do' in a previous thread - on reflection it was on obvious misunderstanding, you're just being frank.
What is it?........... lack of education, tribal conditioning.........I need to stop before I start swearing - it needs to change, I'm optimisic it will change as more people have started to study the Quran.

 

[XAAX]

I bet its gonna be one of these top ten misconceptions:

1. Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.
2. Islam oppresses women.
3. Muslims worship a different God.
4. Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.
5. All Muslims are Arabs
6. The Nation of Islam is a Muslim group.
7. All Muslim men marry four wives.
8. Muslims are a barbaric, backward people.
9. Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.
10. Muslims don't believe in Jesus or any other prophets.

Nope, you missed one that is truly disturbing versus an opinion.

How is it that the Muslim faith holds Muhammad to such high reverence when in fact he was a pedophile? This is a serious question before people want to jump up in arms. I understand that cultures differ. I also know that over time standards of such change. But before anyone tries to answer this question with either of the previous reasons (which are the lame excuses I have been told already), I have the following to say.

Muhammad was in his mid 50’s when he took an 8 year old as his bride (ok, technically they didn’t marry till she was 10). I don’t know what world you are from, but in my eyes, this is far from expectable. Muhammad may have done great things, but I am sorry, in doing this one act he has shown to me that he was not as “godly” as Muslims what to portray him. In fact, in my opinion it goes to show how sick of a mind this man had.

Feel free to answer, I would love to hear anything that could explain this. Just please don’t come with it being a cultural thing. I know it happens all over the world, and has thorough out history. This does not change my opinion that people who do this shouldn’t be castrated. Also I would like to add that this is not a bash to Muslims. I am stating the facts, and my opinion on those facts. I would feel the same toward anyone who had done such appalling acts as this.

 

[Mike182]

Nope, you missed one that is truly disturbing versus an opinion.

How is it that the Muslim faith holds Muhammad to such high reverence when in fact he was a pedophile? This is a serious question before people want to jump up in arms. I understand that cultures differ. I also know that over time standards of such change. But before anyone tries to answer this question with either of the previous reasons (which are the lame excuses I have been told already), I have the following to say.

Muhammad was in his mid 50’s when he took an 8 year old as his bride (ok, technically they didn’t marry till she was 10). I don’t know what world you are from, but in my eyes, this is far from expectable. Muhammad may have done great things, but I am sorry, in doing this one act he has shown to me that he was not as “godly” as Muslims what to portray him. In fact, in my opinion it goes to show how sick of a mind this man had.

Feel free to answer, I would love to hear anything that could explain this. Just please don’t come with it being a cultural thing. I know it happens all over the world, and has thorough out history. This does not change my opinion that people who do this shouldn’t be castrated. Also I would like to add that this is not a bash to Muslims. I am stating the facts, and my opinion on those facts. I would feel the same toward anyone who had done such appalling acts as this.

i heard somewhere that they didn't consecrate their marriage until she was much older than 10 though... i don't know if that is true or not though.

 

[Laila]

How is it that the Muslim faith holds Muhammad to such high reverence when in fact he was a pedophile? This is a serious question before people want to jump up in arms. I understand that cultures differ. I also know that over time standards of such change. But before anyone tries to answer this question with either of the previous reasons (which are the lame excuses I have been told already), I have the following to say.

Muhammad was in his mid 50’s when he took an 8 year old as his bride (ok, technically they didn’t marry till she was 10). I don’t know what world you are from, but in my eyes, this is far from expectable. Muhammad may have done great things, but I am sorry, in doing this one act he has shown to me that he was not as “godly” as Muslims what to portray him. In fact, in my opinion it goes to show how sick of a mind this man had.

Don't base you knowledge on heresay. Is there any evidence in the Quran to say the prophet Muhammed married an eight year old? I think not.
Apparently, there is a whole thread on this. Perhaps whoever knows the link can post it for XAAX propaganda.

 

[jamaesi]

Nope, you missed one that is truly disturbing versus an opinion.

How is it that the Muslim faith holds Muhammad to such high reverence when in fact he was a pedophile? This is a serious question before people want to jump up in arms. I understand that cultures differ. I also know that over time standards of such change. But before anyone tries to answer this question with either of the previous reasons (which are the lame excuses I have been told already), I have the following to say.

Muhammad was in his mid 50’s when he took an 8 year old as his bride (ok, technically they didn’t marry till she was 10). I don’t know what world you are from, but in my eyes, this is far from expectable. Muhammad may have done great things, but I am sorry, in doing this one act he has shown to me that he was not as “godly” as Muslims what to portray him. In fact, in my opinion it goes to show how sick of a mind this man had.

Feel free to answer, I would love to hear anything that could explain this. Just please don’t come with it being a cultural thing. I know it happens all over the world, and has thorough out history. This does not change my opinion that people who do this shouldn’t be castrated. Also I would like to add that this is not a bash to Muslims. I am stating the facts, and my opinion on those facts. I would feel the same toward anyone who had done such appalling acts as this.

We covered this in the chat.

There exists proof that Aisha was anywhere from 12 to 23 years when she was married. Read this, I really haven't the time to explain it all again.



Personally I believe the "base" theory.

Comparison of hadith of Aisha's age with hadith of Laylat al-Qadr, in which 1 was used for 21, 3 for 23, 5 for 25 and so on, suggest that maybe Aisha's reports were transmitted literally and 16 became 6 and 19 became 9, as it is a way of talking in Arabic language when base is already known.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha's_age_at_marriage#_note-hakim