Perceptions of Israel Before and After the Start of the War

[LuisDantas]

My opinion on Israel hasn't really changed that much.

My perception of the change in opinion about Israel has however changed a whole lot. It is impressive how quickly and how intensely it has become the target of all kinds of rudeness and aggressive stances, up to and definitely including libel and grave accusations, while people seem to have largely convinced themselves that Hamas and its rivals are some sort of voice of the oppressed.

A very dangerous situation.

I am also dismayed that the Israeli hasn't found the means to curb its butcher Prime Minister, but in all honesty I am almost becoming used to that by now. It is happening everywhere, apparently.

 

[Debater Slayer]

My opinion on Israel hasn't really changed that much.

My perception of the change in opinion about Israel has however changed a whole lot. It is impressive how quickly and how intensely it has become the target of all kinds of rudeness and aggressive stances, up to and definitely including libel and grave accusations, while people seem to have largely convinced themselves that Hamas and its rivals are some sort of voice of the oppressed.

What specifically do you have in mind, regarding the highlighted part (coloring mine)?

A very dangerous situation.

I am also dismayed that the Israeli hasn't found the means to curb its butcher Prime Minister, but in all honesty I am almost becoming used to that by now. It is happening everywhere, apparently.

What do you have in mind when you refer to him as a "butcher"?

 

[dybmh]

people seem to have largely convinced themselves that Hamas and its rivals are some sort of voice of the oppressed.

A very dangerous situation.

This ^^. And what's worse? People do not even know that they are doing the work of Hamas by propagating their false narrative. Several posters in this thread do that regularly. They think they're immune from cognitive manipulation because they are so smart, and capable, and caring that they cannot even consider that they are being manipulated to do the work of Hamas.

 

[dybmh]

What do you have in mind when you refer to him as a "butcher"?

What do you have in mind when you are asking this question? What are you hoping he will say? What will please you DS? What sort of answer will be rewarding for you?

Hmmmm? You want him to elaborate? Use more colorful and emotional language?

 

[Debater Slayer]

What do you have in mind when you are asking this question? What are you hoping he will say? What will please you DS? What sort of answer will be rewarding for you?

What I have in mind is to understand as much as possible about other members' views, including @LuisDantas'. You'll notice that I asked him another question besides the one you quoted.

Hmmmm? You want him to elaborate?

Yes: see above.

 

[dybmh]

What I have in mind is to understand as much as possible about other members' views, including @LuisDantas'. You'll notice that I asked him another question besides the one you quoted.

That part is obvious. You also did not answer the questions I asked.

What would be rewarding for you? What will please you in his elaboration about the 'butchering"? Would you be happy to hear that The Israeli Prime minister is not actually a butcher and that was a colorful exaggeration? Or would you be happy to have the imagery of the politically conservative butcher validated and lifted up for all to see?

 

[Debater Slayer]

That part is obvious. You also did not answer the questions I asked.

What would be rewarding for you? What will please you in his reply about the 'butchering"?

Nothing. I didn't ask the question in order to get anything "rewarding" from it.

Would you be happy to hear that The Israeli Prime minister is not actually a butcher and that was a colorful exaggeration? Or would you be happy to have the imagery of the politically conservative butcher validated and lifted up for all to see?

Neither even crossed my mind when asking the question, so the above is irrelevant to my questions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What do you have in mind when you are asking this question? What are you hoping he will say? What will please you DS? What sort of answer will be rewarding for you?

Hmmmm? You want him to elaborate? Use more colorful and emotional language?

In my experience both @LuisDantas and @Debater Slayer have shown themselves to be more than capable of thoughtful and honest dialog. Perhaps you should butt out until you prove willing and able to reflect those qualities rather than seeking to sabotage the exchange with slimy insinuation.

 

[LadyJane]

I haven't voted in this poll myself, by the way.

I haven't either. The constant implication differences in opinion mean lack of historical knowledge makes it increasingly difficult to post. Many of us appreciate the nuance. Many of us understand the context. The threads I intend to participate on often get taken over by a few eager patrons before I have the time to write a response and by then it's a different topic entirely. Maybe I take too long. Then again maybe folks take things too personally. Either way it keeps me from posting. A lot. It's not that I have nothing to contribute.

 

[dybmh]

Perhaps you should butt out

No. I should not butt out. I have valuable and productive contributions to offer to this thread. That includes probing DS's motivation as a demonstration of the underlying mechanism which produces cognitive distortion.

The title of the thread is "Perceptions". What I am asking is on-point.

 

[dybmh]

The threads I intend to participate on often get taken over by a few eager patrons

Agreed. There needs to be a safe place where threads can be posted unopposed, right? That's what you want?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you able to articulate the Israeli position accurately? Including the reasons for the manner which the siege on Gaza has been executed?



True. I am sharing what I've noticed. It's very common.



I didn't. I asked. I asked two questions. You've answered the first one and you have now made a claim.

I asked: "Have you considered the Israeli perspective, or only the Palestinian perspective?"

You answered: "Both".

Prove it.

Are you able to articulate the Israeli position accurately? Including the reasons for the manner which the siege on Gaza has been executed?

What I see is so wrong and horrible from different perspectives. What I see is evil on both sides with innocent civilians caught in the middle.
What I see is a side that uses terrorist tactics.
What I see is a side that whipes its behind with countless UN Resolutions.
Then there is the religious aspect from both sides making their irrational religious claims on the same land.


What I see is hatred from both sides and people who are seemingly incapable of living together.

The reason why I tend to put more blame on the Israeli side for the escalating situation is because they are the most powerful ones. And with power comes responsability.

I have no doubt that if the power balance were reversed, we'ld simply see similar abuse in the other direction.

I'ld say that the artificial creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was a crime of its own. But we can't turn back time and it is what it is today.
So I would say that humanity and common sense must prevail. But both sides seem to be lacking these things.

And meanwhile, innocent civilians (both palestinian and israeli) who just want to go about their business are the victim of these brutal policies.

But once again: I tend to blame Israel more because the power balance is in their advantage, meaning that they hold the keys to turn that around. But they don't. They choose for a continuation of brutality.

They "say" that they are combatting the "terrorists" in Gaza now. It looks more like terrorist tactics in the other direction, only even worse then what happened on oct 7. And instead of eliminating terrorists, they are simply creating more of them.

That's what I see. 2 sides where the decision makers choose for hatred and and a vicious circle of more and more violence and brutality, with neither one willing to break that circle and choose for peaceful coexistence with respect for eachother instead. And the longer it goes on, the more difficult it becomes to turn it around. The hatred on both sides runs very deep and in many ways is religiously motivated as well.

TLDR; It's a hellhole and both sides are ruled by proverbial demons.

 

[McBell]

No. I should not butt out. I have valuable and productive contributions to offer to this thread.

If only you would start presenting it.
Instead you harrass.
Of course, all you had to do was keep your mouth shut and wait for the conversation to continue, but instead you decided to jump in half cocked with guns a blazing.
Apparently not understanding just how ridiculous it makes you look.

Now my question is are you capable of seeing this post for what it is, or are you so far gone down the rabbit hole you are merely going to attack me as well?

 

[dybmh]

What I see is so wrong and horrible from different perspectives. What I see is evil on both sides with innocent civilians caught in the middle.
What I see is a side that uses terrorist tactics.
What I see is a side that whipes its behind with countless UN Resolutions.
Then there is the religious aspect from both sides making their irrational religious claims on the same land.


What I see is hatred from both sides and people who are seemingly incapable of living together.

The reason why I tend to put more blame on the Israeli side for the escalating situation is because they are the most powerful ones. And with power comes responsability.

I have no doubt that if the power balance were reversed, we'ld simply see similar abuse in the other direction.

I'ld say that the artificial creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was a crime of its own. But we can't turn back time and it is what it is today.
So I would say that humanity and common sense must prevail. But both sides seem to be lacking these things.

And meanwhile, innocent civilians (both palestinian and israeli) who just want to go about their business are the victim of these brutal policies.

But once again: I tend to blame Israel more because the power balance is in their advantage, meaning that they hold the keys to turn that around. But they don't. They choose for a continuation of brutality.

They "say" that they are combatting the "terrorists" in Gaza now. It looks more like terrorist tactics in the other direction, only even worse then what happened on oct 7. And instead of eliminating terrorists, they are simply creating more of them.

That's what I see. 2 sides where the decision makers choose for hatred and and a vicious circle of more and more violence and brutality, with neither one willing to break that circle and choose for peaceful coexistence with respect for eachother instead. And the longer it goes on, the more difficult it becomes to turn it around. The hatred on both sides runs very deep and in many ways is religiously motivated as well.

It's a hellhole and both sides is ruled by proverbial demons.

LOL.

I asked if had considered both sides. You said you had. I asked if you could accurately present the Israeli side. And this is what you posted. Wow. Do you realize how one-sided this is?

How is this showing that you have considered both sides?

In order to support your claim, you need to articulate the Israeli side accurately. THEN you can knock it down. Invoking "demons" does not work here. You sound irrational. Sorry. You're proving my point. You don't seem to know anything about the Israeli perspective. All you have is name calling. "Demons"

 

[McBell]

Do you realize how one-sided this is?

How exactly is their post "one sided"?

You sound like an irrational hot head.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

LOL.

I asked if had considered both sides. You said you had. I asked if you could accurately present the Israeli side. And this is what you posted. Wow. Do you realize how one-sided this is?

How is this showing that you have considered both sides?

In order to support your claim, you need to articulate the Israeli side accurately. THEN you can knock it down. Invoking "demons" does not work here. You sound like an irrational hot head.

You seem to think that "articulating the israeli side" must mean repeating their propaganda.

Why don't you articulate the Palestinian side?

I'm a third party observer that has no "side".

I look at it and the history and I see both sides engaging in evil attrocities and brutal human-right raping revenge act after brutal human-right raping revenge act.

From where I sit, there are no "good guys" here. The "good guys" are the innocent civilians being bombed to death.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In order to support your claim, you need to articulate the Israeli side accurately. THEN you can knock it down. Invoking "demons" does not work here. You sound irrational. Sorry. You're proving my point. You don't seem to know anything about the Israeli perspective. All you have is name calling. "Demons"

Ok. Post the Palestinian perspective.

 

[dybmh]

So I would say that humanity and common sense must prevail.

Agreed. Emphasis on common sense. Invoking "Demons" is not a common sense approach.

I tend to blame Israel more because the power balance is in their advantage

They're surrounded and out-numbered.

They choose for a continuation of brutality.

It's not a choice. That's the point. If you understood the Israeli perspective, you would see that. There are no good options. Only the best of the worst. But since you are not privy to the data and you are not trained in this you blame israel. Why? Because. "What else could it be?" It's the same pattern repeating over and over and over. The entire anti-israel argument is like this.

You are operating outside your field of expertise. It's like a chef who's never changing the oil in their own car, commenting on the faults of a professional car mechanic.

That's what I see

Friend. I'm being completely serious right now. Have you considered all that you are not able to see?

Remember what I posted? And you seem to have ignored it all?

... It's like looking at a picture on a wall, and becoming fixated, transfixed on the picture to the point of neglecting that surrounding it, on the wall, is nothing but empty space....

And that's why I asked, and you did not answer. Probably because the truth of it hurts. Answering this question would send your mind into turmoil. What's happening in Gaza is painful to see for everyone. Relief comes from one word, five letters: B.L.A.M.E. After blame has been established, the mind can rest. If you expand your awareness and realize how little you know, I do not doubt, friend, it's painful. But it's necessary. Israel are the good-guys in this fight. That's why UAE is on our side. Egypt is on our side Jordan is on our side.

I ask you again:

Why do you expect that you, as an outsider, far away, from a distance, is getting an accurate and fair rendering of the conflict as it is occurring in real-time?

 

[dybmh]

You seem to think that "articulating the israeli side" must mean repeating their propaganda.

Of course. Then you knock it down. It's not assuming it's propaganda before you have understood it. That is literally prejudiced and it's a terrible method.

 

[dybmh]

Ok. Post the Palestinian perspective.

Happy to do so. You first. Your claim, your burden.