Persecuted Catholics in Iraq

[MaddLlama]

How is a war----supposedly started over oil and weapons of mass destruction----at all analogous to a group of people being persecuted merely for their faith? I fail to see the correlation.

Indeed.

I think it would be best if we got back to the topic. Seriously, if you want to talk about the war, please take it outside.

 

[Hope]

Don't worry, we're making up for it, the "xian" nation of America is killing Muslim Iraqis by the tens of thousands.

I find it deliciously ironic that those who would adamantly deny the US is a Christian nation when such an assertion is "inconvenient" or "undesirable" then turn around and say it is indeed a Christian nation when it is convenient and suits their purposes. Seems some folks are pretty confused.

 

[jamaesi]

Forgive me my friend... maybe check out the website for the Chaldeans... my specific info on Iraq comes from secular news agencies (I don't find them to be reliable- but do a google search if you'd like - a Catholic priest and three deacons were murdered a few weeks ago just after leaving their church.... several Christian churches have been burned to the ground.... and many Mulims have started to kidnap children so much so that many of the Christian schools are almost empty because parents are keeping their kids home).... sorry I don't have specific sources... I trust the Bishop as reliable because he is an Iraqi.... western Christian reporters are less than trustworthy in my opinion.

Well, I'll do some more research on this when I get more free time, I've found quite a bit throughout history about the horrible treatment of Assyrian Christians. Thing is... right now (not to push aside the recent past genocides) all groups of people are persecuted, no rhyme or reason to it or war. I just read this morning how a little Iraqi boy was burned on the streets by a group of insurgents for no more reason than playing right outside his house. It's horrible for everyone there right now...

If you don't mind... what country do you live in?

I live in Pennsylvania, dear Scott. I'm Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, and Punjabi (of Pakistan). Some of my family got out of Pakistan when it was split into Pakistan and India... the horrors of ethnic and religious divide and violence aren't that foreign to my blood.

Again... not that I believe you are not telling the truth, but my experience has been different. The Christians in Iraq (and in the two Muslim nations I lived in for a time) did charge the jizyah but then levied an ADDITIONAL tax to Christians... many have come home to signs on their doors telling them they now live in an area that is a "Muslim Nation" and they have one week to leave or be killed.... many have fled to the Nineva plains in the north (the traditional Christian area refered to in our Bible), but some who remain in the city are being herded into certain neighborhoods... the Muslims are creating Christian "ghettos" like the Nazis did to the Jews in Germany... it is such a tragedy that these Muslim invaders are treating these Catholics like cattle even thought it was OUR land first. Many Christians don't realize that stories they read in our Bible happened right there in modern Iraq... Abraham was from the area... Jonah (was was swallowed by the whale or large fish) was from modern day Mosul.

I'd be quite surprised if your experience was the same as what I described what jizyah is supposed to be, that's why I described it in the past tense... How it's implemented today? I'm sure it's a punishment and to be a burden against nonMuslims- but that is not how it should be. That's now how it is in Islam. It was because nonMuslims were not expected to fight in an Islamic army as they weren't Muslims and it might go against their beliefs, but they were still protected by that military and were thus required to support it monetarily.

I don't think that... we really want to get into the "my flag was here first, neener neener" conversation. All have a right to the land, and most of the people there were born there, and all should live in mutual respect and tolerance. I do understand and sympathise, I can not go to a few of my holy places in Israel as I am a Muslim and not allowed to them.

I'm sure that our Merciful God will judge these barbarians on their last day... I pray some day these people come to now the TRUE ALLAH... merciful and just. I'm sure you will pray with me that any Christian or Muslim who resorts to unprovoked violence against innocent people will be stopped.

Peace be with you,
S

Of course. I can't count how many times G-d is described as merciful in our writings... I pray that all will come to realise that. I'm in school for language and political science, it's my hope that my language skills will someday be used in order to fight against extremism and terrorism.

Waalaykum assalaam, and peace be upon you, Scott.

I'm a little confused. Do the Muslims here believe that these sorts of things don't happen and are just stories made up by people who have a grudge against Islam, or do you believe that it is happening but is un-Islamic? I agree with Hope that to deny that things like this happen would be to hide your head in the sand.

While I'm sure there are too many Muslims who do believe what you have just said, what I am trying to find out here if the current rash of violence against Iraqi religious minourities (I know about the recent past persecution against Assyrian Christians) is just tied into the violence that comes from war and effects all members, all minourities, all groups of that society. Iraq is not a good place for anyone right now...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I find it deliciously ironic that those who would adamantly deny the US is a Christian nation when such an assertion is "inconvenient" or "undesirable" then turn around and say it is indeed a Christian nation when it is convenient and suits their purposes. Seems some folks are pretty confused.

:bow: :bow: Outstanding! :bow: :bow:

 

[TashaN]

I'm a little confused. Do the Muslims here believe that these sorts of things don't happen and are just stories made up by people who have a grudge against Islam, or do you believe that it is happening but is un-Islamic? I agree with Hope that to deny that things like this happen would be to hide your head in the sand.

For God's sake, even the Muslims are killing each other there so how on earth we would know who is killing whom and what for. In Iraq, some people just set up bombs in certain areas and they don't care who will be killed by that. It doesn't matter to me who is killing whom there because this is about humanity, but not about a particular faith overthere.

People just feel it disturbing that the Christians are being perscuted but they ignore that christians there are just a minority and most of the killing is being done by Muslims against either the americans or the other muslim sects.

 

[TashaN]

I'm not bashing your beliefs in any way, shape or form. I'm sorry you feel this way.

You have to feel sorry that you are misrepresenting an essential part of my faith which is jihad, not to feel sorry that i feel in this way.

You said: They are radical Muslims who believe in jihad.

I believe in jihad too, and all Muslims believe in jihad or they are not muslims at all.

Is that a problem to you? do you think jihad is evil?

I don't know either why did you throw out that definition of jihad. did you even understand what jihad is?

If you can say I have hateful intentions, or am ignorant, after all I have just said, then I'm sorry for you, my friend, because you are grossly mistaken.

Sorry that you didn't get what i mean. I said:

Also, would you feel nice if i said helppppp The Christians are killing the Muslims !!!

Only ignorants do this act of generalization or those with hateful intentions.

I was refring to my own statement, if anyone does such a generalization as the example in my statement so they definitely must have hateful intentions.

 

[TashaN]

Truth, I'm not understanding why you think Scott has a problem with Islam?

What he is saying is either true or it's not. Either way, how does that reflect Islamic teachings?


Catholics do stupid stuff all the time and it does no good for me to defend them.

Do you think i'm defending those who kill the Christians?

What is the point of this thread, Victor?

Do you want me to apologize for what any muslim did if they did so?

Or maybe you think Islam is teaching muslims to kill the Christians?

You tell me, i guess you have some grasp of what Islam teach by now.

I said what i said because i'm sick of these threads which ask the muslims to apologize for what the muslims did or claim that the christians are the only victim in that area?

WHO IS RESPONISBLE FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

ISN'T IT YOUR HOLY COUNTRY?

 

[jamaesi]

Do you think i'm defending those who kill the Christians?

What is the point of this thread, Victor?

Do you want me to apologize for what any muslim did if they did so?

Or maybe you think Islam is teaching muslims to kill the Christians?

You tell me, i guess you have some grasp of what Islam teach by now.

I said what i said because i'm sick of these threads which ask the muslims to apologize for what the muslims did or claim that the christians are the only victim in that area?

WHO IS RESPONISBLE FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

ISN'T IT YOUR HOLY COUNTRY?

The vibe I got from Scott in the OP was "look at this fascinating group of people in our religion" not a demand for apologies from Muslims. NonMuslims get persecuted in Muslim countries. Even Muslims get persecuted in Muslim countries. Groups get persecuted everywhere.

This is a group of people who have gone through tremendous suffering and genocides and displacement in the past and present and you're trying to turn this into a "poor Muslims" thing? No one here is attacking Islam, I am positive all the posters in this thread know that what is happening to Christians in Iraq is spits in the face of Islam- but it is happening! If you want to make a post about Muslims being persecuted then you are free to, but this thread is about Assyrian Christians in Iraq and their culture and religion and their treatment.

 

[TashaN]

I am positive all the posters in this thread know that what is happening to Christians in Iraq is spits in the face of Islam- but it is happening! If you want to make a post about Muslims being persecuted then you are free to, but this thread is about Assyrian Christians in Iraq and their culture and religion and their treatment.

So you do agree that in their history in Iraq the Christians had to choose either to pay the Jizyah, convert or die?

This what you think Islam do teach?

This is what all the thread is about, it's not about the christians but about the evil muslims.

All the thread is about this stupid OP:

the Christians (both Catholic and non) have no army to protect themselves and those who remain are only given three options:
1. Convert to Islam
2. Pay a "tax" ... basically a penalty/extortion just for being Christian
3. DIE

Lean more about these wonderful Christian on their website: kaldu.org

Regardless of your early explination of the Jizyah but you didn't tell them that is not happening in Iraq and all the killing is just a result of the current situation.

By the way, there was a thread posted by gracie i guess somewhere talks about the persecution of Christians in Iraq and it was presenting FACTS and it wasn't an attack against my religion as this thread.

 

[jamaesi]

So you do agree that in their history in Iraq the Christians had to choose either to pay the Jizyah, convert or die?

You know what, I know about the history of jizyah and how in the past it has been unfair and a burden and readjusted over time. I don't know that terribly much about how jizyah is implemented today in "Islamic" countries but if it's anything like the "Islamic" forcing of my sisters to wear burqas or else be beaten or have acid thrown on them and the murder of people who dare have different ideas from the mainstream of Islam then I can very well believe jizyah is also being abused.

This what you think Islam do teach?

Truth, I have made it very clear in every post in this thread that persecution is not part of Islam. I am a Muslim, even if many of the other Muslims, my brothers and sisters, here like to call me a kafir behind my back and intimidate me for my beliefs. I'm not the only fellow Muslim treated like this, look at how Djamila and Laila were treated.
I know my religion.

This is what all the thread is about, it's not about the christians but about the evil muslims.

All the thread is about this stupid OP:

Truth, I am suggesting now that you read about the history of Assyrian Christians in the Middle East. It's not a pretty thing.

Regardless of your early explination of the Jizyah but you didn't tell them that is not happening in Iraq and all the killing is just a result of the current situation.

You want me to lie?

Right now I am researching this on my own and I am beginning to believe more and more this isn't just because of the horrors of war. Assyrian Christians have been targeted for a long time and it's still continuing. I am not going to bury my head in the sand and ignore fellow believers, no matter their creed, who are being hurt.


This article is from TIME Magazine.

...
Like the larger insurgency targeting U.S. troops and the new Iraqi government, the campaign against Christians appears to be becoming more organized. Sa'ad Jusif, a Chaldean-Assyrian Christian, was kidnapped on Sept. 8, according to Dr. Munir Mardirosian, who heads a political party for Armenian Catholics in Baghdad. His captors showed
him a list of 200 names, most of them Christian, and demanded to know where they lived. When he refused, he was hung from the ceiling and beaten with iron pipes. He was released only when his family paid a $50,000 ransom on Sept. 13. He left the next day for Jordan. Says Mardirosian: "If they opened the doors to America or Australia, I can say there would not be one Christian left in Iraq."
The violence in Iraq threatens one of the world's oldest Christian communities, dating back 2,000 years. The population includes Chaldean Assyrians (Eastern-rite Catholics who recognize the Pope's authority); Assyrians, who form an independent church; Syrian Catholics; and Armenian Catholics. Under Saddam, Christians coexisted more or less amicably with the Muslim majority. Easter services were broadcast on state television, and Christians were allowed to own and operate liquor stores.
Christians today keep a low profile. While most of the anti-Christian violence has been committed by a small group of Islamic extremists, Christians say they are encountering rising anger among their Muslim neighbors. Layla Isitfan says taxi drivers have insulted her when they realized she was Christian, in some cases saying all Christians should be shot and killed. At work, she wears a Muslim head scarf and tells colleagues that she is Muslim. Raja Elias, a Syrian Catholic in Baghdad, says that recently a neighbor began to dump garbage on her front porch. When Elias complained, the neighbor said, "You are a Christian, and I can put it inside your house if I want to."
...

Here's another article.

A militant Islamic group in Iraq recently issued a fatwa, or religious edict, to the Assyrian Christian residents of the Baghdad suburb of Dora: Convert to Islam within 24 hours, or face death. At the same time, Muslim neighbors were instructed, over the loudspeakers of local mosques, to confiscate the property of Christians and enforce the edict.
...
Iraq's Assyrian Christians know quite well that these latest threats are not empty promises. Since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, over 25 churches across Iraq have been bombed, in highly symbolic and coordinated manners. The Islamic group claiming responsibility for the bombing of four churches in August 2004 issued a warning. "To the people of the crosses: Return to your senses and be aware that God's soldiers are ready for you. You wanted a crusade and these are its results."
Several priests have been abducted and beheaded, one in apparent retribution for the pope's public musings about Muhammed and the nature of Islam in October 2006. In March, two elderly nuns were reportedly stabbed to death in Kirkuk. Several Christian women have been beheaded or doused with chemicals for failing to wear the veil. And last October a 14-year-old Assyrian boy was crucified near Mosul.
For the Islamists, the violence has certainly had the desired effect: The massive exodus of Assyrian Christians from Iraq. The UN High Commission for Refugees estimates that as many as a third of the 1.8 million refugees now outside Iraq are Christian.

A similar percentage of the 1.6 million internally displaced within Iraq are likely Christian, many of whom have fled Baghdad, Basra and Mosul to the relatively stable Northern Iraq. The Catholic Bishop of Baghdad, Andreos Abouna, recently stated that as many as half of Iraqi Christians, perhaps half a million people, have fled the country since the 2003 invasion.
Assyrian Christians, the indigenous people of Iraq, the inheritors of the ancient Mesopotamian civilization and the world's earliest converts to Christianity, are at risk of being completely eradicated from their homeland.

These people are being driven from their homeland, and yes, it is by people who call themselves Muslim.

I know how you feel about the Palestinian cause- how is this any different? People being persecuted for their religion and living in constant fear of violence and being driven out of their homelands... I am not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend this isn't happening and that Islam is implemented perfectly in Islamic majourity countries and I am NOT going to pull a "pity the Muslims" card.

I am disgusted this is happening and I am more disgusted and ashamed that Muslims aren't doing something to help... and worse, denying this problem.

By the way, there was a thread posted by gracie i guess somewhere talks about the persecution of Christians in Iraq and it was presenting FACTS and it wasn't an attack against my religion as this thread.

How can you read these horrible things that are happening to these people and have pity for yourself?



Allah, have mercy on us all...

 

[MaddLlama]

For God's sake, even the Muslims are killing each other there so how on earth we would know who is killing whom and what for. In Iraq, some people just set up bombs in certain areas and they don't care who will be killed by that. It doesn't matter to me who is killing whom there because this is about humanity, but not about a particular faith overthere.

People just feel it disturbing that the Christians are being perscuted but they ignore that christians there are just a minority and most of the killing is being done by Muslims against either the americans or the other muslim sects.

I think you're taking this far too personally. Do you think it's inappropriate for someone to criticize Islam, or to criticize Muslims when they do things that appear to be un-Islamic? I'm just asking a question, and your response appears very defensive to me, and I don't understand why.

I don't know a whole lot about anything that goes on over there, nor do I know much about Islam. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to get a question answered because I need some clarification in understanding your position. I'm not out to get anybody.

With that in mind, can you please take a deep breath, not assume I'm trying to bait you, and simply answer my questions?

 

[logician]

I find it deliciously ironic that those who would adamantly deny the US is a Christian nation when such an assertion is "inconvenient" or "undesirable" then turn around and say it is indeed a Christian nation when it is convenient and suits their purposes. Seems some folks are pretty confused.

Our fascist leader Bush, who started this illegal war and still keeps the insanity going, claims to be a xian.

Many who still support the war are Xian.

Iraq is now a "hell" on earth thanks to Bush.

Need I say more?

 

[Popeyesays]

"Every war is against the good pleasure of the Lord of mankind, for man is the edifice of God and war destroys the divine edifice."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 85)

"Christ forbade war! When the disciple Peter, thinking to defend his Lord, cut off the ear of the servant of the High Priest, Christ said to him: 'Put up thy sword into the sheath'.[1] Yet, in spite of the direct command of the Lord they profess to serve -- men still dispute, make war, and kill one another, and His counsels and teaching seem quite forgotten."
[1 St John xviii, 11.]
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 48)

"Perchance such ways and words from you will make this darksome world turn bright at last; will make this dusty earth turn heavenly, this devilish prison place become a royal palace of the Lord -- so that war and strife will pass and be no more, and love and trust will pitch their tents on the summits of the world. Such is the essence of God's admonitions; such in sum are the teachings for the Dispensation of Baha"
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 34)

I offer this prayer frequently: Please note the first couple paragraphs, the prayer was written in 1914.

"O GOD, my God! Thou seest how black darkness is enshrouding all regions, how all countries are burning with the flame of dissension, and the fire of war and carnage is blazing throughout the East and the West. Blood is flowing, corpses bestrew the ground, and severed heads are fallen on the dust of the battlefield.
O Lord! Have pity on these ignorant ones and look upon them with the eye of forgiveness and pardon. Extinguish this fire, so that these dense clouds which obscure the horizon may be scattered, the Sun of Reality shine forth with the rays of conciliation, this intense gloom be dispelled and the resplendent light of peace shed its radiance upon all countries.
O Lord! Draw up the people from the abyss of the ocean of hatred and enmity, and deliver them from this impenetrable darkness. Unite their hearts, and brighten their eyes with the light of peace and reconciliation. Deliver them from the depths of war and bloodshed, and free them from the darkness of error. Remove the veil from their eyes, and enlighten their hearts with the light of guidance. Treat them with Thy tender mercy and compassion, and deal not with them according to Thy justice and wrath which cause the limbs of the mighty to quake.
O Lord! Wars have persisted. Distress and anxiety have waxed great and every flourishing region is laid waste.
O Lord! Hearts are heavy, and souls are in anguish. Have mercy on these poor souls and do not leave them to the excesses of their own desires.
O Lord! Make manifest in Thy lands humble and submissive souls, their faces illumined with the rays of guidance, severed from the world, extolling Thy Name, uttering Thy praise, and diffusing the fragrance of Thy holiness amongst mankind. 58
O Lord! Strengthen their backs, gird up their loins, and enrapture their hearts with the most mighty signs of Thy love.
O Lord! Verily, they are weak, and Thou art the Powerful and the Mighty; they are impotent, and Thou art the Helper and the Merciful.
O Lord! The ocean of rebellion is surging, and these tempests will not be stilled save through Thy boundless grace which hath embraced all regions.
O Lord! Verily, the people are in the abyss of passion, and naught can save them but Thine infinite bounties.
O Lord! Dispel the darkness of these corrupt desires, and illumine the hearts with the lamp of Thy love through which all countries will erelong be enlightened. Confirm, moreover, Thy loved ones, those who, leaving their homelands, their families and their children, have, for the love of Thy Beauty, traveled to foreign countries to diffuse Thy fragrances and promulgate Thy teachings. Be Thou their companion in their loneliness, their helper in a strange land, the remover of their sorrows, their comforter in calamity. Be Thou a refreshing draught for their thirst, a healing medicine for their ills and a balm for the burning ardor of their hearts.
Verily, Thou art the Most Generous, the Lord of grace abounding, and, verily, Thou art the Compassionate and the Merciful.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 56)

 

[Hope]

Our fascist leader Bush, who started this illegal war and still keeps the insanity going, claims to be a xian.

Then why did you didn't you say Bush specifically, instead of calling our nation christian?

Sorry, you're the one who backed yourself into a corner :foot: ....all attempts to get out are futile.

 

[TashaN]

You know what, I know about the history of jizyah and how in the past it has been unfair and a burden and readjusted over time. I don't know that terribly much about how jizyah is implemented today in "Islamic" countries but if it's anything like the "Islamic" forcing of my sisters to wear burqas or else be beaten or have acid thrown on them and the murder of people who dare have different ideas from the mainstream of Islam then I can very well believe jizyah is also being abused.

Again, Scott claim that in Iraq (today) the Christians have to choose between paying the Jizyah, convert to Islam or die, and he didn't back up this claim and you came all of the sudden trying to show off as a hero without knowing what you are talking about. If this is happening so it's against Islam's teachings and against basic human rights but we have to make sure of what he is saying first and whether it's true or not, because we are dealing with facts, after all.

Truth, I have made it very clear in every post in this thread that persecution is not part of Islam. I am a Muslim, even if many of the other Muslims, my brothers and sisters, here like to call me a kafir behind my back and intimidate me for my beliefs. I'm not the only fellow Muslim treated like this, look at how Djamila and Laila were treated.

I hope this wasn't directed at me, and if it wasn't so its irrelevant here and you have to justify your stance on why you mentioned this in here!

Truth, I am suggesting now that you read about the history of Assyrian Christians in the Middle East. It's not a pretty thing.

I read about it before when one of the memebrs mentioned it and how they are being treated in Iraq and it was a fair and reasonable assesment but what is happening in this thread is totally ridiculous.

You want me to lie?

Don't lie, but make sure first of the information presented by the poster before talking about the issue itself. You have to know what is the purpose of the thread first and how he is directing it. I have no problems to talk about facts but i have problems when some people use little facts and put it in the middle of a total crap OP, and then whine about the issue itself after that. It's like what they say, hiding poison in the middle of the honey.

Right now I am researching this on my own and I am beginning to believe more and more this isn't just because of the horrors of war. Assyrian Christians have been targeted for a long time and it's still continuing. I am not going to bury my head in the sand and ignore fellow believers, no matter their creed, who are being hurt.


This article is from TIME Magazine.

Here's another article.

These people are being driven from their homeland, and yes, it is by people who call themselves Muslim.

I sympathize with them and we all have to stand against any injustice.

The problem is not in the issue of the christians there, and i'm not complaining about that, but i'm complaining about what Scott is trying to do.

Please find for me where the Iraqis are making them choose between Jizyah, convering to Islam or death. I'll be grateful if you did so for me and i promise you i'll shut up.

I know how you feel about the Palestinian cause- how is this any different? People being persecuted for their religion and living in constant fear of violence and being driven out of their homelands... I am not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend this isn't happening and that Islam is implemented perfectly in Islamic majourity countries and I am NOT going to pull a "pity the Muslims" card.

Read what i said above.

I am disgusted this is happening and I am more disgusted and ashamed that Muslims aren't doing something to help... and worse, denying this problem.

No comment.

 

[TashaN]

I think you're taking this far too personally. Do you think it's inappropriate for someone to criticize Islam, or to criticize Muslims when they do things that appear to be un-Islamic?

I don't have any problem with that, and you just have to check my posts and the threads i have been participating in to know how open i'm about this issue.

I'm just asking a question, and your response appears very defensive to me, and I don't understand why.

I just have a problem with some dirty techniques to use some little facts and mixing it up with wrong information to bash Islam. Of course i'm not talking about you. You will know what i'm talking about when you read my reply above to Khalila.

I don't know a whole lot about anything that goes on over there, nor do I know much about Islam. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to get a question answered because I need some clarification in understanding your position. I'm not out to get anybody.

You are most welcome to ask me as much as you want. Go for it.

With that in mind, can you please take a deep breath, not assume I'm trying to bait you, and simply answer my questions?

lol. I'm not nervous or anything, just ask.

 

[Quiddity]

Do you think i'm defending those who kill the Christians?

No, I think any perceived criticism of Islam causes you to jump to it's defense. I can understand that, but if I can give any word of advise, don't defend the injustices of your religion. Instead, help fix from within. If you don't believe any injustices exist, well then you'll have a hell of time proving it.

What is the point of this thread, Victor?

I took it as a reflection of what people of my faith go through in Iraq.

Do you want me to apologize for what any muslim did if they did so?

Nope. It's silly in my opinion to connect every Muslim action to Muslim teaching.

Or maybe you think Islam is teaching muslims to kill the Christians?

I don't know your faith well enough to give an informed answer. I do know I've read and seen videos of Muslims doing just that. Whether it aligns to Islamic teachings or not, I do not know.

You tell me, i guess you have some grasp of what Islam teach by now.

As I said, I don't know.

I said what i said because i'm sick of these threads which ask the muslims to apologize for what the muslims did or claim that the christians are the only victim in that area?

I don't think they are the only victims, but it's certainly not going to help if you deny it.

WHO IS RESPONISBLE FOR WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

Sectarianism and religious extremism?

ISN'T IT YOUR HOLY COUNTRY?

Umm...what this have to do with it?

 

[TashaN]

No, I think any perceived criticism of Islam causes you to jump to it's defense. I can understand that, but if I can give any word of advise, don't defend the injustices of your religion. Instead, help fix from within. If you don't believe any injustices exist, well then you'll have a hell of time proving it.

You have the wrong impression about me, you know me better than that. I don't have any problem with any respectful criticism of either Islam or Muslims.

I took it as a reflection of what people of my faith go through in Iraq.

And i took it as *using* some facts about what some Christians face in Iraq to bash some beliefs in my faith like Jizyah and Jihad as i pointed out earlier.

Nope. It's silly in my opinion to connect every Muslim action to Muslim teaching.

Great!

I don't know your faith well enough to give an informed answer. I do know I've read and seen videos of Muslims doing just that. Whether it aligns to Islamic teachings or not, I do not know.

Do you believe, as an educated person like yourself and most of members in here, that some videos are enough to judge a religion?

If you still don't know so i'll tell you. Islam doesn't teach us to hate people from other faiths, and Allah and Apostle Mohammed, set a very harsh punishment on judgment day for anyone who harm them, but i don't remember the verses and the specific hadith which talk about this issue now.

You and all other members are welcome to ask about Islam's stance on this issue and i'll be more than happy to help you to understand any misconception regarding this issue.

I don't think they are the only victims, but it's certainly not going to help if you deny it.

Did i?

I'm not denying anything, and i know that all people are suffering in Iraq today--including Christians--and i'm not naive to deny facts, Victor.

All what i asked and still asking is if what Scott said in his OP was true. Jizyah, convert or die!

I hope it's clear now.

Sectarianism and religious extremism?

No. US invasion for Iraq.

Umm...what this have to do with it?

Read above.

 

[MaddLlama]

You are most welcome to ask me as much as you want. Go for it.

Ok, well then could you answer my questions from the post you first replied to?

 

[Quiddity]

You have the wrong impression about me, you know me better than that. I don't have any problem with any respectful criticism of either Islam or Muslims.

Good, then you shouldn't have any problem with this thread.

And i took it as *using* some facts about what some Christians face in Iraq to bash some beliefs in my faith like Jizyah and Jihad as i pointed out earlier.

Well, that isn't how I and others have taken it.

Great!

...

Do you believe, as an educated person like yourself and most of members in here, that some videos are enough to judge a religion?

As I said above, you need not worry about me. The day I speak out on Islam, I'll be sure it's connected to it's teachings.

You and all other members are welcome to ask about Islam's stance on this issue and i'll be more than happy to help you to understand any misconception regarding this issue.

I know where to go.

Did i?

I'm not denying anything, and i know that all people are suffering in Iraq today--including Christians--and i'm not naive to deny facts, Victor.

All what i asked and still asking is if what Scott said in his OP was true. Jizyah, convert or die!

I hope it's clear now.

Don't think for a second others within Islam don't intepret it or implement it differently then you understand it.

No. US invasion for Iraq.

What this have to do with it?