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"Person of Color," "Brown," or "White"? Or Something Else?

In addition to the above question, how would you, whether you're from the US or not, classify any or all of the above people if you had to check a box or fill a field on an official or medical form?

Folk from the south and Eastern Mediterranean share a common heritage.

The idea that some of them are grouped with Nordic and Germanic folk as “white” Europeans whereas others are grouped as “brown Arabs” purely based on 20th c geopolitical division between “Europe” and the “Middle East” has always seemed ridiculous to me.

Equally ridiculous is the US designation “people of colour” that is based entirely on US domestic conceits and certainly doesn’t reflect how people in Asia, Africa, etc view themselves.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Folk from the south and Eastern Mediterranean share a common heritage.

The idea that some of them are grouped with Nordic and Germanic folk as “white” Europeans whereas others are grouped as “brown Arabs” purely based on 20th c geopolitical division between “Europe” and the “Middle East” has always seemed ridiculous to me.

Equally ridiculous is the US designation “people of colour” that is based entirely on US domestic conceits and certainly doesn’t reflect how people in Asia, Africa, etc view themselves.

I completely agree! One caveat I'd like to add, though, is that I think the term "people of color" may be useful in some US-specific contexts, albeit limited ones. It is when someone tries to extend its usage well beyond those contexts that I find it most unhelpful and sometimes downright racist, even if inadvertently or due to poor execution of good intentions.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
is that I think the term "people of color" may be useful in some US-specific contexts, a
I cannot imagine what they are. However, as the subject has been raised, I would like to ask as to the meaning of the term. Going back some years, we were all told that to call black people coloured was not acceptable. I totally agree, we all have some colour. But then this latest "people of colour" arrived. Why is the latter acceptable? Everyone I know is quite happy with with black, white or brown. I have never heard anybody outside of the media use this expression.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I cannot imagine what they are. However, as the subject has been raised, I would like to ask as to the meaning of the term. Going back some years, we were all told that to call black people coloured was not acceptable. I totally agree, we all have some colour. But then this latest "people of colour" arrived. Why is the latter acceptable? Everyone I know is quite happy with with black, white or brown. I have never heard anybody outside of the media use this expression.

I don't use the term, myself, but from what I've seen, it seems to refer to any non-white person, effectively drawing its meaning from a backdrop in which white people are the majority.

Of course, this begs the question of how "white" should be defined, and this vagueness is part of what I had in mind when asking the questions in the OP. Should "white" as a classification be limited to people of European descent, for example, even though the appearance of multiple other ethnic groups is highly similar to people traditionally viewed as "white"? Should appearance even be the primary factor in such classifications? If not, then the whole idea of classifications based on skin tone, like "brown," "person of color," etc., seems to me imprecise compared to classifications based on nationality, ethnicity, cultural heritage, etc.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
They are white.
US Census racial classifications: granted, the ethnic term Hispanic is often included in racial categories.

The U.S. Census Bureau must adhere to the 1997 Office of Management and Budget (OMB) standards on race and ethnicity which guide the Census Bureau in classifying written responses to the race question:

White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Black or African American – A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.

American Indian or Alaska Native – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

The 1997 OMB standards permit the reporting of more than one race. An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification.

An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification. The Census Bureau does not tell individuals which boxes to mark or what heritage to write in. For the first time in Census 2000, individuals were presented with the option to self-identify with more than one race and this continued with the 2010 Census. People who identify with more than one race may choose to provide multiple races in response to the race question. For example, if a respondent identifies as "Asian" and "White," they may respond to the question on race by checking the appropriate boxes that describe their racial identities and/or writing in these identities on the spaces provided.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd stay with the scientific definitions.

White, negro, asian , etc.

The Cambridge Dictionary lists "negro" as both "offensive" (also "extremely offensive") and "old-fashioned":


Merriam-Webster lists it as "dated" and "often offensive":


Aa for the concept of race itself, it is not a scientific one but rather a social construct (two relevant articles here and here).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Given that the terms "person of color" and "brown" seem to me vague outside specific contexts (e.g., the context of racial politics in the US), I'm interested to know which, if any, of the following people would fall under either of those classifications if they lived in the US.

I realize that there are significant differences among Western countries (and most countries in general) regarding racial classifications, so I'm narrowing down my question to the US for the purposes of this thread.

The pictures are spoilered so that they don't fill up the page.

This is Yasmine Sabri, an Egyptian actress:

JtcnK3K0-photo.jpeg.jpg

This is Wael Kfoury, a Lebanese singer:

65000153_200927117538689_549934733727103692_n.jpg

This is Luna Bishara, a Palestinian actress:

%D9%84%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%AF.jpg

This is Motasem Al Nahar, a Syrian actor:

194496_1_1587748608.jpg

In addition to the above question, how would you, whether you're from the US or not, classify any or all of the above people if you had to check a box or fill a field on an official or medical form?

Please note that I'm only asking how you would classify any or all of the above people if you had to do so. I realize that many people don't think of people in terms of such classifications or care to classify skin tones at all, and that is my perspective too. However, I'm interested in exploring prevalent views regarding how the classification is most likely to be done in cases where it does occur.
To me, they're Middle Eastern. "White" to me refers to people of European descent only. I prefer going by actual ethnicity and nationality, not outdated racial caste terms like "white" and "black", anyway.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Given that the terms "person of color" and "brown" seem to me vague outside specific contexts (e.g., the context of racial politics in the US), I'm interested to know which, if any, of the following people would fall under either of those classifications if they lived in the US.

I realize that there are significant differences among Western countries (and most countries in general) regarding racial classifications, so I'm narrowing down my question to the US for the purposes of this thread.

In addition to the above question, how would you, whether you're from the US or not, classify any or all of the above people if you had to check a box or fill a field on an official or medical form?

Please note that I'm only asking how you would classify any or all of the above people if you had to do so. I realize that many people don't think of people in terms of such classifications or care to classify skin tones at all, and that is my perspective too. However, I'm interested in exploring prevalent views regarding how the classification is most likely to be done in cases where it does occur.

As a general rule, I don't usually classify people in this way, since there might be some element of doubt. If a person wants to tell me what "color" they are, then I will accept that at face value.

The issue has a certain background within America and is typically within a uniquely American context. Also, the Civil Rights Movement was primarily viewed as a "black" and "white" issue, since it largely focused on African-Americans in the southern U.S. It should also be noted that, during the 1950s and 60s, the foreign-born population of the U.S. was at an all-time low (thanks to the 1924 immigration act), so whatever racial politics took place, it was viewed as something internal within America involving the rights of U.S. citizens who happened to have a different skin color. I don't believe it was intended to come up with all-encompassing definitions of race on a global scale (although it seemed to morph into that later).

I never even heard the term "person of color" until the 1990s. I never even heard terms like "African American" or "Native American" until the 1980s. Even the term "Hispanic" was used less often in deference to the specific country associated with Spanish-speaking immigrants. If you were in the Southwestern U.S., then Spanish-speakers would be called "Mexicans." If you were in Miami, they'd be Cubans or Puerto Ricans. If you were in New York, they'd be Puerto Ricans. The term "Hispanic" was largely used as a lingual designation, since Hispanics could be any race, black, brown, white - or any shade in between. Also, it was considered more polite, since it was considered presumptuous to call someone a "Mexican" if they were from Central or South America. I knew Panamanians and Argentineans who didn't like being associated with Mexico at all, and I knew a Brazilian guy who didn't like being called "Hispanic" because his language was Portuguese, not Spanish.

On the other hand, I've known Hispanics who look as white as any WASP, yet they consider themselves "not white" because of their Hispanic heritage. My step-sister's ex-husband was Mexican-American, yet he appeared and acted like a typical WASP. However, I've attended a few of his family gatherings, and most of his extended family was much darker in skin color. I understand that this is not that uncommon in Hispanic families, as members of the same family will often have different shades of skin color.

Similarly, the term "Asian-American" seems more a recent contrivance (1980s or 90s), as they were also more typically identified by their nation of origin.

Of course, the more brazenly racist and bigoted types (which abounded in America once upon a time) would openly use whatever pejorative term struck their fancy. WASPs made the definitions, even to include people whose surnames ended in a vowel.

I think "person of color" may have been a way of referring to a person who is not white - or not considered white by typical American standards of the past, and thus would be viewed as part of a group which has been traditionally oppressed due to their race, heritage, or national origin.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Given that the terms "person of color" and "brown" seem to me vague outside specific contexts (e.g., the context of racial politics in the US), I'm interested to know which, if any, of the following people would fall under either of those classifications if they lived in the US.

I realize that there are significant differences among Western countries (and most countries in general) regarding racial classifications, so I'm narrowing down my question to the US for the purposes of this thread.

The pictures are spoilered so that they don't fill up the page.

This is Yasmine Sabri, an Egyptian actress:

JtcnK3K0-photo.jpeg.jpg

This is Wael Kfoury, a Lebanese singer:

65000153_200927117538689_549934733727103692_n.jpg

This is Luna Bishara, a Palestinian actress:

%D9%84%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%AF.jpg

This is Motasem Al Nahar, a Syrian actor:

194496_1_1587748608.jpg

In addition to the above question, how would you, whether you're from the US or not, classify any or all of the above people if you had to check a box or fill a field on an official or medical form?

Please note that I'm only asking how you would classify any or all of the above people if you had to do so. I realize that many people don't think of people in terms of such classifications or care to classify skin tones at all, and that is my perspective too. However, I'm interested in exploring prevalent views regarding how the classification is most likely to be done in cases where it does occur.

I live in a very diverse city in Southern California, and none of the above would cause me to classify them as anything other than attractive, while being reminded yet again that "youth is wasted on the young," now that I'm not young anymore. :)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The Cambridge Dictionary lists "negro" as both "offensive" (also "extremely offensive") and "old-fashioned":


Merriam-Webster lists it as "dated" and "often offensive":


Aa for the concept of race itself, it is not a scientific one but rather a social construct (two relevant articles here and here).
It's tiresome on how normal terminology is constantly being vilified even when it's used in a completely benign manner..

I suppose people find this exceptional organization is offensive as well.


I'll continue using the terms as I please until those organizations stop using them first , which I'll respect such changes if and when it happens and not before.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Equally ridiculous is the US designation “people of colour” that is based entirely on US domestic conceits and certainly doesn’t reflect how people in Asia, Africa, etc view themselves.

It's not ridiculous if they decide it's the term they want to use for themselves.

“Unfortunately, so many times people of color hear the term ‘people of color’ from other white people that they think white people created it,” she said, “instead of understanding that we self-made ourselves. This is a term that has a lot of power for us. But we’ve done a poor-*** job of communicating that history so that people understand that power.”​
. . . .​
The phrase “people of color” itself predates the “women of color” etymology that Ross laid out in her video. In the 1960s and ’70s, says miles-hercules, “groups like the Black Panther Party for Self Defense and the Brown Berets came together in solidarity as people of color, which was a new instantiation of the idea of people having color.” The new solidarity term used person-first language, as opposed to the idea of “colored people,” meaning Black people, that emerged in the late 19th century.​

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's not ridiculous if they decide it's the term they want to use for themselves.

“Unfortunately, so many times people of color hear the term ‘people of color’ from other white people that they think white people created it,” she said, “instead of understanding that we self-made ourselves. This is a term that has a lot of power for us. But we’ve done a poor-*** job of communicating that history so that people understand that power.”​
. . . .​
The phrase “people of color” itself predates the “women of color” etymology that Ross laid out in her video. In the 1960s and ’70s, says miles-hercules, “groups like the Black Panther Party for Self Defense and the Brown Berets came together in solidarity as people of color, which was a new instantiation of the idea of people having color.” The new solidarity term used person-first language, as opposed to the idea of “colored people,” meaning Black people, that emerged in the late 19th century.​

Colored people is a perfectly fine term as well.
 
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