sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No it's not. Read the DSM IV. It hasn't been considered to be a psychological dysfunction for 20 years, at least.
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Please Explain: "Gay Christian"
- Thread starter NewGuyOnTheBlock
- Start date
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well... it isn't sinful. What's the problem with adopting an ideology that actually reflects reality? :sarcastic
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Jesus said, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks (Mt.12:34)
The expletives used by this world include a wide range of foul, degrading, crude and rude verbal belches which have no place among Gods people.
Swearing is never necessary, except perhaps to gain attention you never deserved in the first place.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."
(Luke 6:45)
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
(Ephesians 4:29)
"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Mathew 5:37)
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Mathew 12:34-36)
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I definitely appreciate that as being your opinion and the opinion of many others. I hold to a different opinion.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Despite the DSM IV, homosexuality is definitely considered to be a psychological dysfunction, even if only by me.
Not all opinions are equal. Yours is wrong.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I see nothing wrong with adopting an ideology that actually reflects the truth. Whether or not homosexuality is sinful is the reason for this debate, and so far, you have not convinced me that you are correct.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Im pretty sure all sins are equally measured in the eyes of god. For everytime I've made love with the same smex, someone equally lied, taken the lords name in vain, envy'd another, etc. All christians sin, and all do so knowingly or willingly at times. To me its like your saying that In order for one to be a Christian they must not sin. So, to me, your argument that in order for one to claim to be a gay christian that they must not view homosexuality as a sin, is just silly. :drool:
Gay shouldn't even be before the word christian if you ask me.. Like God really cares? Im pretty sure he would rather the love of 'gays' than not at all.
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Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I am not saying that at all. And I'm sorry if my posts are coming across that way. It is difficult to be absolutely clear, in my opinion.
People fall into many categories. Some people are Christians. Some are not.
Some people claim to be Christians, and some people claiming to be Christians are not.
Some Christians are homosexual, and some are not. And some people who claim to be homosexual Christians are not Christians at all.
Many deceive themselves, and Jesus has often attested to that fact.
I personally find it very difficult to determine who the "real" Christians are. So I don't try to figure that out so much. Christ says we know them by their works. But I have a hard time accepting someone as truly being Christian when they are continually denying the truth of scripture, and I'm talking about all scripture.
I know there are people struggling with sin. I have my own sins that I struggle with. But what I do not do, and what I cannot do is substitute lies for the truth. I admit my sins, I ask for forgiveness, and I ask God for help; for I am depraved, and without God's help, without His mercy, without His forgiveness, I have no hope at all.
So what I am saying here, in response to your present comment is that there are many homosexuals whether they claim to be Christians or not, who have adopted a lie, because it makes them feel better about themselves. They think that by denying that homosexuality is sin that they somehow deserve God's favor or are in a better position to receive God's forgiveness.
Keep in mind what Paul writes in Hebrews 10:26, when he says: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
Thus, if you acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin, and you continue in it even after knowing the truth, then you have no more sacrifice for your sin.
So I adhere to what I've said, many homosexuals who desire to be considered Christians have deceived themselves to believe that homosexuality is not a sin. This way, they can avoid the condemnation of Hebrews 10:26.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Have you come across many gay Christians who appear as such?
Personally, I wouldn't think many believe that homosexuality is not a sin, atleast in reference to pro-creation, but instead focus on sins that reflect more detailed aspects of being a homosexual in today's day and age. Telling a gay Christian that once he knows the truth about homosexuality with reference to Hebrews 10:26, is quite the catch 22 for him. Imagine yourself in that situation if you desired men like you do women, or lets just flip the whole scenario and say heterosexuality overall was a sin. Would you still date/marry/have sex with women knowing the truth and knowing your going to be condemned? How do you even answer that without saying You wouldn't have sex with women. Otherwise, You'd spend the remainder of your life with a male, always desiring to be with a female, and then wut? So true Gay Christians who want to avoid condemnation either accept homosexuality as a sin, or live heterosexual lifestyles?
With that being said, Gay Christians will always ponder over the truth and we will never know until we die. But for sanity reasons, I, along with many other Gay christians just ignore the whole argument, or justify it like I've seen others, even non homosexuals, do by going into depth over specific verses that condemn homosexuality. Note* I obviously Im not speak for all gay christians on the subject.
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There's many LGB Christians who realize it's not a sin. I'm one of them.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Well, I mean.. According to scripture I do, atleast with procreation. Do I feel it should be? :no: Do I care either way? Nope.
Theres been a few threads on here where people have debated over the verses that condemn it, and there were convincing arguments that went both ways. Mind sharing your opinion in more detail for me? Im really curious.
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Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I believe post 316 answers your question.
Honestly, this is just my interpretation of Hebrews 10:26. I believe there exists other Christians who have a different take on it. Chuck Smith for example seems to suggest that this verse is in reference to certain Jews who receive the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then return to the sacrificial system of the Jews for the remission of their sins, which is impossible. For there is no remission of sins outside of that which Christ
offered through the shedding of His own blood.
ScuzManiac
Active Member
I don't think that's technically true in terms of Christianity...
Is murder equal to cheating on your wife?
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Did Jesus die for only some sins to be forgiven?
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ScuzManiac
Active Member
No....
But saying that one sin is just as bad as another is grasping at straws.
I don't care what The Bible says or any other mythological tale at that...
Telling a lie isn't as bad as murder.
Thruve
Sheppard for the Die Hard
Oh, yea I said that too once. Then I learned how a lie can lead someone to commit murder, or how committing adultery can psychologically screw up your kid and ultimately cause them to commit murder, not will, but can. See my point? I'm not even going to get into intent. So unless your, in theory, God, and you can see the chain reactions sins produce, we cannot assume that sins are not equal.
You lying to your son that god hates gays eventually leads your son, like a seed, an evil seed, to develop depression, which down the road he commits murder as a result. Is god gonna judge his act of murder more than your lie? There's always more to meet the eye good sir. This doesn't mean we're not held accountable for our sinful acts, especially those that break human laws. So don't get the impression that I'm saying sinning, even when it's unknowingly a result of some other negative effect, is excusable, or that ur not held accountable.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Why do you need to know whether one is Christian or not? Or homosexual or not?
There are some problems with your post. First of all, homosexuality isn't something that one "does" -- it's something one "is." Biblically, when humanity was created, God proclaimed humanity "very good" -- including the possibility of some being homosexual.
Second, "being Christian" has nothing to do with "denying the truth of scripture." Jesus didn't hold that up as a litmus test for his followers. In the early days of Xy, most people couldn't read, and most were unaware of what the scriptures said. I just don't think that's a proper way to judge "who is" and "who is not."
Third, it's simply not a lie to say that homosexuality is OK. The bible doesn't speak about homosexuality. What the bible does do is talk about homosexual acts. But even then, we know that commandments, purity codes, and punishments are neither arbitrary nor immutable -- even when written in the bible. Even Jesus weighed the veracity of scripture many times, and found some of it lacking for the purposes of the time. For our time, in which we know more about the human psyche, and know homosexuality to be a normal and healthy expression of sexuality, it's not a lie to say "homosexuality isn't a sin." We, like Jesus, say, "the scriptures say..., but we say..."
The Christian life is far more concerned about the poor, the outcast, the victim, the prisoner, than it is about "following rules" (especially arbitrary rules that serve to exclude, to judge, and to harm). When people deny that homosexuality is sinful, they refuse to pass judgment on others based upon sexual preferences, they affirm that all people are acceptable by virtue of who they are, and they open the door for the outcast to also be included at God's table. When we deny the sinfulness of homosexuality, we affirm that those who identify as such do deserve God's favor, and are in a position to receive God's grace.
We only deceive ourselves when when we imagine people to be in sin simply because of who they are, and that God does not visit them with God's grace.
Basically, the ancients had no concept of sexual orientation as we do. Their view of sexual behavior was tied up with gender roles and general social expectation. So the verses that seem to be talking about homosexuality need to be examined and placed into their cultural context. They don't mean what people have been told they mean.
Christianity may be a choice but homosexuality is not. There is evidence that (for males at least) homosexuality is actually caused in utero by an imbalance of androgens. This is because of an autoimmune reaction in the mother. It is hereditary on the mothers side and genetic.
Most Christians believe that God is love and God created the universe and everything in it. They believe God loves all of His creations and will forgive you of your sins if you love Him in return.
So, simply, you can be born anything and still make the choice to believe in God, condemned or otherwise.
Most Christians believe that God is love and God created the universe and everything in it. They believe God loves all of His creations and will forgive you of your sins if you love Him in return.
So, simply, you can be born anything and still make the choice to believe in God, condemned or otherwise.