Poll: Religious garb or religious garbage?

[stevecanuck]

That sounds rather personal..
I thought we were discussing about whether govts. should be able to make laws regards "dress-code" ..

I say they should, because it is the business of govt. to protect its people from harm, and listen to what the majority want.
In the case of a majority Muslim country, it is not the business of the west to dictate and interfere in this regard, imo.

Does that mean you approve of Islamic standards of dress being applied to non-Muslims in such countries?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Has anyone thought of this

Why Iranian women are burning their hijabs after the death of Mahsa Amini

Yes, we know.
The world is sinking into ignorance.
If it's not mass shootings in US, or burning headscarfs in Iran, it's Russia and China beating their chests.

 

[stevecanuck]

That depends.
If a group of people is intent on political activism which offends the majority, particularly if it is against accepted Divine decree, it risks undermining the whole society.

Even if a person does not 'accept' said decree? That is what you call tyranny of the majority.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Even if a person does not 'accept' said decree? That is what you call tyranny of the majority.

What? Even if the offence was murder?
If not, why not?

 

[gnomon]

Yes, we know.
The world is sinking into ignorance.
If it's not mass shootings in US, or burning headscarfs in Iran, it's Russia and China beating their chests.

What a sad flippant response. Last I checked the OP was about dress standards and not about mass shootings that take place worldwide or political chestbeating.

I merely elevated the discussion into something that is relevant to the OP in my opinion.

edit: I should point out that I don't think what happened to Mahsa Amini is a religious issue but much more of a cultural issue. But I could be wrong.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What a sad flippant response..

It wasn't meant to be flippant.
I see all these recent troubles in the world as serious signs of an ever increasing series of disasters, along with climate-change and war.
They are all connected.

Mankind prides itself in its apparent achievements.
Higher standards of living, burning headscarfs and burning oil, climate-change etc.

Jesus is reported to have said..
"For the rich man to enter the kingdom of God, is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle"

We have created a fools paradise. It is not sustainable.

..whereas, what God ordains is very much sustainable.
..but He knew that we would "eat the forbidden fruit", as He
knew that there would also be people who ordain righteousness.

 

[stevecanuck]

What? Even if the offence was murder?
If not, why not?

The topic is Islamic dress codes. If you don't want to discuss that, please just tell me so I don't waste my time.

 

[gnomon]

It wasn't meant to be flippant.
I see all these recent troubles in the world as serious signs of an ever increasing series of disasters, along with climate-change.
They are all connected.

Mankind prides itself in its apparent achievements.
Higher standards of living, burning headscarfs and burning oil, climate-change etc.

Jesus is reported to have said..
"For the rich man to enter the kingdom of God, is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle"

We have created a fools paradise. It is not sustainable.

..whereas, what God ordains is very much sustainable.
..but He knew that we would "eat the forbidden fruit", as he
knew that there will also be people who ordain righteousness.

Did you even read through the link I posted. A woman died because she was decreed to not be wearing the appropriate attire and killed for it. It's not a unique incident in that culture.

People are protesting because this has been, dare I say it, a human long struggle about violence against women across numerous cultures.

I'm not talking about climate change or geopolitics.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Did you even read through the link I posted.

Every word !

I'm not talking about climate change or geopolitics.

No, you want to talk about "Why Iranian women are burning their hijabs after the death of Mahsa Amini"..

How is "burning hijabs" a righteous action?
It is ignorant behaviour, imo.
I don't think that the majority of Iranian women would do that.
If I'm wrong, then armageddon might only be a few years off !

The western media, is the western media.
They are not content until everybody has the same values as themselves, and suffer the same fate .. collapse.

 

[gnomon]

Every word !


No, you want to talk about "Why Iranian women are burning their hijabs after the death of Mahsa Amini"..

How is "burning hijabs" a righteous action?
It is ignorant behaviour, imo.
I don't think that the majority of Iranian women would do that.
If I'm wrong, then armageddon might only be a few years off !

The western media, is the western media.
They are not content until everybody has the same values as themselves, and suffer the same fate .. collapse.

Burning hijabs, in the case I linked, is a powerful protest. It's sorry you don't see it.
We can only hope that the majority of not only Iranian women but women everywhere who do not get to choose their dress code but are forced to live by ancient and useless cultural ideals will rise up as well.

It's not the Western media. It's your culture.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We can only hope that the majority of not only Iranian women but women everywhere who do not get to choose their dress code but are forced to live by ancient and useless cultural ideals will rise up as well..

What exactly, is it supposed to achieve?
A society that has no respect for Divine revelation is destined for hell.
..in this life, and the next.
I know you think otherwise.

Naturally, I do not agree with "a police state", where the police are not answerable to anybody.
..but the burning of hijab is ignorant behaviour.
It does not help.

It's not the Western media. It's your culture.

It's not my "culture".
I grew up as a Christian in the west, and live in the west.
I don't want to see 'morality police' in the UK, but I don't
think it's the west's business to interfere.

Do the EU sanction US for police violence against blacks?
Do the EU sanction Israel for police violence against Palestinians?
The west seem to think that "God is always on their side"..
..when it is not so straightforward as they think.

 

[gnomon]

What exactly, is it supposed to achieve?
A society that has no respect for Divine revelation is destined for hell.
..in this life, and the next.
I know you think otherwise.

Naturally, I do not agree with "a police state", where the police are not answerable to anybody.
..but the burning of hijab is ignorant behaviour.
It does not help.


It's not my "culture".
I grew up as a Christian in the west, and live in the west.
I don't want to see 'morality police' in the UK, but I don't
think it's the west's business to interfere.

Do the EU sanction US for police violence against blacks?
Do the EU sanction Israel for police violence against Palestinians?
The west seem to think that "God is always on their side"..
..when it is not so straightforward as they think.

Funny. You state that the west seem to think that God is always on their side while at the same time stating that a society that has no respect for Divine revelation is destined for hell. Which the latter part means that such a society believes God is always on their side.

edit: Apologies. I should not have said it's your culture.

 

[Valjean]

How do we decide which of the myriad divine revelations is the correct one?
It seems to me this diversity of revelations has underlain a long history of 'hellish' wars and strife.

Maybe we'd be better off ignoring claims of divine revelation/command, and basing our laws on their social consequences and utility in promoting happiness and prosperity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Funny. You state that the west seem to think that God is always on their side while at the same time stating that a society that has no respect for Divine revelation is destined for hell. Which the latter part means that such a society believes God is always on their side.

I'm having difficulty unravelling that.

edit: Apologies. I should not have said it's your culture.

Don't mention it. It can be confusing "who is who" at times.
I don't automatically take the side of "the Muslims".
It really depends on the issue. We all can be at fault.

 

[Alien826]

How did I miss this thread? I'd love to reply to some posts individually, but most of it has been said. I'll just set out my own feelings.

My morality is very simple. Do what you want, but don't harm others. Simple, but it gets more complicated in application.

What is "harm"? I think most people would find this easy to answer, when the action is applied to themselves. It gets more complex when considering others. What follows flows from my own definition of "harm".

As far as dress codes go, wear whatever you want including nothing. No harm can result from looking at another person.

But what about offending others? I reply, what about the offendee being less easily offended? Years ago, there was discussion on British TV about men having long hair. It was around the time when the Beatles and others were "offending" people with their long hair. A young man had been banned from school for having long hair. The Headmaster (bald himself!) said among other things "It offends people". I found myself amazed that anyone could find offense in the length of someone's hair. Interesting that today, pretty much any hairstyle is accepted. I guess it didn't prove to harm anyone.

But what about offending God? According to whom, I ask. God doesn't seem to mind in other cultures, in fact He tends to be silent on most things, leaving it to humans to claim all kinds of things in His name.

As far as nudity goes, nothing is less sexual. Nudist colonies are not hot beds of depraved sexuality, quite the opposite in fact. What is sexually stimulating is revealing a part of the body that is not normally revealed. Women's fashion cyclically reveals and conceals different parts of the body as we get used to the latest "part" and it is no longer sexy. Reveal everything and after a while it isn't note worthy. Fundamentalist Islam is in fact creating the problem that they try to solve. The more you cover women up, the more fascinating the slightest "reveal" becomes. A friend long ago had a job in a Muslim country where women were typically covered. Saudi Arabia? Can't remember. He and his wife went to a beach, and she wore a bikini. (The beach may have been set aside for western workers, I think they have similar places for drinking alcohol). A group of local men gathered round her, not threatening but simply staring at her. They would not go away when requested to. They just stood and stared. Can you imagine that on a European or American beach?

My objection to the treatment of women in (some) Islamist countries is that they are forced to wear certain clothes, not that they do. If they want to wear concealing clothing, then they should be allowed to.

 

[stevecanuck]

How do we decide which of the myriad divine revelations is the correct one?
It seems to me this diversity of revelations has underlain a long history of 'hellish' wars and strife.

Maybe we'd be better off ignoring claims of divine revelation/command, and basing our laws on their social consequences and utility in promoting happiness and prosperity.

But, that's saying people who live in Western secular countries are happier and more prosperous than those who live in Islami ............ oh, right. They are. Hooda thunk it?

 

[stevecanuck]

My objection to the treatment of women in (some) Islamist countries is that they are forced to wear certain clothes, not that they do. If they want to wear concealing clothing, then they should be allowed to.

Welcome to the thread. The trouble with saying Muslim women should be allowed to cover themselves fully if they want to is the "want to" bit. I actually agree with that, which might surprise some who are familiar with me, but how do you know for sure? Some Muslim men run their households with an iron fist, and their women are made to wear the full niqab whether they want to or not. if you were to ask them if it's their choice, they would feel obligated to say it is.

 

[Ponder This]

Of course, relating to females, and with regards to Iran and Afghanistan, apart from many other countries too. And seemingly, mostly about Muslims and where there might be rules/laws enforcing any particular dress code.

* Poll option: In general, that is, if it doesn't apparently cause offence to others - like how it is legal to be nude in the UK as long as such doesn't cause offence, or sufficient people don't complain over this. But they often do. And is this sufficient reason for religious dress to be enforced - that some are offended?

So, the last option might take into account the feelings of others, but it is basically we who decide as to what we wear as long as such conforms to whatever laws that obtain in our country.

What are your views on this?

Noone knows how a person should dress. People only know how a person shouldn't dress.

 

[stevecanuck]

Oh, I can control myself.
I have no interest whatsoever in dirty women.

Let me try again. Perhaps you thought I didn't want an answer, but I very much do. Please answer this:

@ChristineM referred to women who show their, "ankle or face or hair", and from that you extrapolated all the way across the spectrum to that making them "dirty". Did you really mean to do that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Please answer this:

@ChristineM referred to women who show their, "ankle or face or hair"

Yes .. suggesting that the problem was me not being able to control myself.
I merely made a reply in a similar vein.