Poll: The best argument against God, capital G.

[Left Coast]

The bible claims the Abrahamic god to be omnipotent. Omnipotemce is infinite power.

But that power doesn’t have to be physical matter or energy.

Power is energy expended over time.

Power is ability.

If energy were infinite (as required by omnipotence) then mass couldn't exist.

There are some buried assumptions there. Omnipotence, I would think, is unlimited ability, not unlimited activity. People who say God is omnipotent are not saying an infinite amount of physical energy exists.

As i said, a percentage.

You go get those Mormons!

 

[ChristineM]

Power is ability.

Power is defined as several things. All require energy in some form

There are some buried assumptions in that second sentence there.

Not thst i see. This universe is either energy or mass, both are essentially the same thing and are interchangeable.

Omnipotence, I would think, is unlimited ability, not unlimited activity

Omnipotemce: the quality of having unlimited or very great power.
See my first sentence

You go get those Mormons!

And others ;-)

 

[Left Coast]

Power is defined as several things. All require energy in some form

Non-physical things would not be bound by physical laws.

Not thst i see. This universe is either energy or mass, both are essentially the same thing and are interchangeable.

But that doesn't mean they're infinite.

Omnipotemce: the quality of having unlimited or very great power.

Yes, unlimited or very great ability. That doesn't require there to be no mass in the universe. I have the ability to run a mile. That doesn't mean I'm running one right now.

 

[Zwing]

Correct but just as a believer sees evidence for a God, i see evidence against a god. Not proof, but evidence. My E=MC2 argument is (to me) one piece of that evidence.

Mass-energy equivalence suggests an alternative to creation by fiat. It does not provide evidence for the non-existence of God, for an omniscient and omnipotent God could just as easily create the laws of Physics and genetics with the aim of realizing you ab initio, as he could create your forefathers by fiat, know what I mean? The extant lack of evidence is a strong enough basis for atheism…

 

[shunyadragon]

Non-physical things would not be bound by physical laws.

True, but non-physical things are unknown things that are subject to (?) unknown laws.

 

[Left Coast]

True, but non-physical things are unknown things that are subject to (?) unknown laws.

Exactly, so trying to applying E=MC2 to them doesn't really make sense.

 

[ChristineM]

Non-physical things would not be bound by physical laws.

Can you provide proof of this?

But that doesn't mean they're infinite

The definition of omnipotence doed

Yes, unlimited or very great ability. That doesn't require there to be no mass in the universe. I have the ability to run a mile. That doesn't mean I'm running one right now.

You need energy when you run a mile.

 

[ChristineM]

Exactly, so trying to applying E=MC2 to them doesn't really make sense.

An example of non physical things please

 

[ChristineM]

Mass-energy equivalence suggests an alternative to creation by fiat. It does not provide evidence for the non-existence of God, for an omniscient and omnipotent God could just as easily create the laws of Physics and genetics with the aim of realizing you ab initio, as he could create your forefathers by fiat, know what I mean? The extant lack of evidence is a strong enough basis for atheism…

Evidence please.

E=MC2 is proven to be meaningful and precise. There is no proof of god doing anything

 

[Left Coast]

Can you provide proof of this?

Logically, it seems almost self-evident, does it not? Physical laws apply to physical things. Why would they apply to other things?

The definition of omnipotence doed

Your definition, perhaps. Not the definition your standard monotheists are using when they describe God.

You need energy when you run a mile.

Of course, but I'm not expending the energy to run a mile right now, despite having it.

 

[Left Coast]

An example of non physical things please

Well that's the rub, isn't it? Some people have proposed ideas or abstract concepts like numbers as non-physical. Other people think minds are non-physical, though that's a considerably more controversial take.

 

[ChristineM]

Logically, it seems almost self-evident, does it not? Physical laws apply to physical things. Why would they apply to other things?

No it doesn't. What is a non physical thing?

Your definition, perhaps. Not the definition your standard monotheists are using when they describe God.

Which is?

Of course, but I'm not expending the energy to run a mile right now, despite having it.

You are expending energy all the time, thinking, breathing, everything you do requires energy

 

[ChristineM]

Well that's the rub, isn't it? Some people have proposed ideas or abstract concepts like numbers as non-physical. Other people think minds are non-physical, though that's a considerably more controversial take.

I guess the idea of a number is non physical though energy is required to compose the idea.

Minds use energy

 

[Left Coast]

No it doesn't. What is a non physical thing?

See my other post.

Which is?

I told you, ability.

You are expending energy all the time, thinking, breathing, everything you do requires energy

But not the amount of energy needed to run a mile. I can run a mile. I have that power. I'm not expending the enegy for that right now. I'm expending considerably less.

 

[Left Coast]

I guess the idea of a number is non physical though energy is required to compose the idea.

Minds use energy

Is the mind itself energy?

 

[Revoltingest]

Non-physical things would not be bound by physical laws.

Example of a "non-physical" thing?

 

[Left Coast]

Example of a "non-physical" thing?

Post #131

 

[Revoltingest]

Is the mind itself energy?

Post #131

The mind is a physical process involving both matter & energy (chemical & electrical).

 

[Left Coast]

The mind is a physical process involving both matter & energy (chemical & electrical).

I would be fascinated to see your argument that minds are purely physical. Perhaps a subject for a different thread.

Spoiler: Philosophers are divided on this subject, materialist philosophers of mind do not have an open and shut case.

 

[Ostronomos]

Its not it's evidence against omnipotence.

One cannot have infinite power (infinite energy expended over infinite time) qt the same time as mass (you and i and everything else physical)

But that's the thing. You and I are physical but God and demonic forces are ethereal.