Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[emiliano]

If you are stopping procreation, you are not making more potential Catholics. That has been an issue for centuries. The Israelites also felt that way because they were usually a tribe on the verge of extinction. It was important to go forth and multiply. In Quebec for example they pay more child benefits for the number of children you have. A documentary I watched a few years back said that it was to encourage larger families. I know that is somethiing I have been told for years. Most people who are not RC see that as wealth greed with no consideration for their people. I don't know, but I still believe that a leader of a huge organization should at least offer condom use to those with aids. That is just my personal opinion, and obviously doesn't carry any weight anyway.

They are offered a better solution, if you are infected abstain. :shout

 

[gnostic]

But the pope is not just "encouraging abstinence"; he is actually actively condemning the USE of condoms, hence he is also encouraging the spread of the disease. He is saying that using condom is a sin.

That's what you not getting, emiliano.

No one is going to abstinence in Africa because the pope say so. So is it not far better to use condoms then further spreading through unprotected sex?

That's why I think the pope is a complete irresponsible ******* of a dolt. Aid agencies, scientists, medicine doctors and governments are completely dismay by the pope's naivety and religious agenda that endanger lives.

Live in the real world, emiliano.

Do you think that anyone in Africa would listen to the pope about abstaining?

By saying it is sin to use a condom, they will probably listen to your pope about not using the condoms, but will continue to have sex, thereby infecting others.

To me, the pope is complete manipulative idiot who has religious agenda, not the well-being and safety of the people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are moving the goalpost, the article that the OP directed us to reads says“The Vatican encourages sexual abstinence to fight the spread of disease. Nothing is said about contraception,

I can see how you missed the mention of contraception, seeing how the authors hid it by placing it prominently in the first sentence of the article:

Pope Benedict says the distribution of condoms is not the answer in the fight against AIDS.

:sarcastic

so I am afraid that you have no idea, to make it simpler this is to discuss the Pope's statement “the church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS in Africa” the thing here is to determinate what is the better strategy: hand them condoms and encourage promiscuity and sexual lust or demand abstinence,

Why do you think "encourage promiscuity and sexual lust" necessarily follows from "hand them condoms"? Does "encourage reckless driving" follow from "get people to use their seatbelts"?

Anyhow, it's not a matter of asking the Church to hand out condoms, it's a matter of asking the Church to stop lying in an attempt to curtail their use, as the Pope was quoted doing in the article I linked to in my first post in the thread (emphasis mine):

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon, where he will begin a seven-day pilgrimage on the continent. "On the contrary, it increases the problem.''

as I said the leader of the Church that have as its mission the Salvation of souls cannot get involved in such an unloving act, this weights heavily on the mind of Christian “For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? “ which elegantly answer the suggestion that the Church should chance its tenets in order to become popular.

I don't think the Church would violate any of its tenets if it just approached the issue with honesty and compassion, both of which I think have been lacking in its treatment of this issue.

 

[gnostic]

Apparently the pope himself is increasing the problem.

 

[challupa]

They are offered a better solution, if you are infected abstain. :shout

But it's not a better solution if no one is listening to him about abstaining and everyone is listening to him about not using condomns. It's not a practical solution and it's killing thousands of people and leaving many orphans that are in great peril. This is not a good situation. We must understand that there is something that needs to change about our religious beliefs when there becomes evidence that we need to re-evaluate what we believe. Do you really believe God is so upset with preventing contraception that he wants to see many of his creation dying of a disease that can be prevented? I agree with others that say he does not have to say he approves of condoms, but he must not tell them they don't work. That is irresponsible and crossing the line in being humane. Something I would think God would want us to be, don't you?

 

[Stellify]

They are offered a better solution, if you are infected abstain. :shout

I disagree...judging by the still-rampant spread of the disease, I would say that it's not a solution at all to the problem of HIV/AIDS.

Although, when you said "solution", did you mean solution to the problem with the spread of a deadly disease, or a solution to saving people's souls? And would you mind explaining your thought process on that? I'm a bit confused

 

[emiliano]

But the pope is not just "encouraging abstinence"; he is actually actively condemning the USE of condoms, hence he is also encouraging the spread of the disease. He is saying that using condom is a sin.

That's what you not getting, emiliano.

No one is going to abstinence in Africa because the pope say so. So is it not far better to use condoms then further spreading through unprotected sex?

That's why I think the pope is a complete irresponsible ******* of a dolt. Aid agencies, scientists, medicine doctors and governments are completely dismay by the pope's naivety and religious agenda that endanger lives.

Live in the real world, emiliano.

Do you think that anyone in Africa would listen to the pope about abstaining?

By saying it is sin to use a condom, they will probably listen to your pope about not using the condoms, but will continue to have sex, thereby infecting others.

To me, the pope is complete manipulative idiot who has religious agenda, not the well-being and safety of the people.

Yes I do have problems getting you guys, now where do get this from? “hence he is also encouraging the spread of the disease” ????? if you are a HIV infected Catholic, the Pope says to you abstain from sexual activities, this is an infallible way of stoping you from spreading this disease, disobeying his directive is a sin, a big one and leaves you out of his flock. What you people can’t get is that these are directives to Catholic and Christians in general, we must not be part of encouragement to continue living in sin, if you are Catholic and can’t abstain, get out of the church, you are no longer a Christian.

 

[emiliano]

I disagree...judging by the still-rampant spread of the disease, I would say that it's not a solution at all to the problem of HIV/AIDS.

Although, when you said "solution", did you mean solution to the problem with the spread of a deadly disease, or a solution to saving people's souls? And would you mind explaining your thought process on that? I'm a bit confused

Why do you blame him when there has been distribution of condoms to Africans for years, so the failure of your programmes is not the Church failure, folks in here tell me that nobody listen to the pope, that he is an idiot and give all sorts of counsel and propose solutions, who are the Africans listening to? As for the explanations that you asked me, well, I get that you are not a spiritually inclined person and I would stand a better chance preaching to an ***, how can I explain salvation to you? Do you know what we mean when we say Salvation? Has it been explained to you? Do you believe that human have a soul?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes I do have problems getting you guys, now where do get this from? “hence he is also encouraging the spread of the disease” ????? if you are a HIV infected Catholic, the Pope says to you abstain from sexual activities, this is an infallible way of stoping you from spreading this disease, disobeying his directive is a sin, a big one and leaves you out of his flock. What you people can’t get is that these are directives to Catholic and Christians in general,

In part. They're also a message to the world at large. The Pope isn't just the leader of a religious denomination; he's also a political figure trying to further a particular vision of society. Many of his quoted statements in the press deal with society in general, not just Catholics:

"[AIDS is] a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems"

It is of great concern that the fabric of African life, its very source of hope and stability, is threatened by divorce, abortion, prostitution, human trafficking and a contraception mentality

Source

we must not be part of encouragement to continue living in sin,

In that I agree with you, but I can think of very few sins greater than furtherance of death and suffering.

if you are Catholic and can’t abstain, get out of the church, you are no longer a Christian.

If you are Catholic and believe as the Church teaches, you view anyone who has been baptized as a Christian, and nobody as "no longer a Christian".

 

[emiliano]

But it's not a better solution if no one is listening to him about abstaining and everyone is listening to him about not using condomns. It's not a practical solution and it's killing thousands of people and leaving many orphans that are in great peril. This is not a good situation. We must understand that there is something that needs to change about our religious beliefs when there becomes evidence that we need to re-evaluate what we believe. Do you really believe God is so upset with preventing contraception that he wants to see many of his creation dying of a disease that can be prevented? I agree with others that say he does not have to say he approves of condoms, but he must not tell them they don't work. That is irresponsible and crossing the line in being humane. Something I would think God would want us to be, don't you?

Are you claiming to know God’s mind? If infected people abstain from having sexual relations the spreading of this stops. As far as I know Aids has not cure, this people are dying, the idea is to stop them from infecting others, as someone said condoms are not 100% protection, but abstinence is. Science could step in and help these people, chemical castration is possible and is done to sexual deviants.

 

[Smoke]

If you are Catholic and believe as the Church teaches, you view anyone who has been baptized as a Christian, and nobody as "no longer a Christian".

If I remember correctly, emiliano is no longer a Catholic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you claiming to know God’s mind? If infected people abstain from having sexual relations the spreading of this stops.

And you know what works just as well, if not better? If people try to abstain from having sexual relations while keeping a condom in their pocket in case they don't live up to their goal.

As far as I know Aids has not cure, this people are dying, the idea is to stop them from infecting others, as someone said condoms are not 100% protection, but abstinence is.

Practicing abstinence may be 100% effective (if it's practiced 100% of the time), but preaching abstinence is not. The Church does not have the option to physically force anyone to follow its teachings.

Science could step in and help these people, chemical castration is possible and is done to sexual deviants.

What?!

So... right now, we don't have the money for drugs to treat these people; we don't even have the money to treat pregnant women during pregnancy so they don't pass the virus on to their children during childbirth... but chemical castration is somehow a viable solution to the AIDS crisis? Rather than devote science to a cure for AIDS or cheaper treatments, you want to put it toward something like this?

I really don't know what to say. That's such a sick suggestion that I'm overwhelmed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If I remember correctly, emiliano is no longer a Catholic.

I didn't think he was Catholic... but seeing how he framed his post in the Catholic point of view, I thought it was odd that he discarded that point of view right at the end.

 

[Mister Emu]

Science could step in and help these people, chemical castration is possible and is done to sexual deviants.

Wow...

That said...

Is it not clear that condoms haven't been that effective in stemming the tide of AIDS? Last I looked into it, it seemed that was the case... that prevelance numbers weren't really down despite large numbers of condoms widely available...

 

[Storm]

It doesn't matter how readily available they are if nobody uses them.

 

[Mister Emu]

I really don't know what to say. That's such a sick suggestion that I'm overwhelmed.

I don't think there is anything to say, except that it is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard...

 

[challupa]

Are you claiming to know God’s mind? If infected people abstain from having sexual relations the spreading of this stops. As far as I know Aids has not cure, this people are dying, the idea is to stop them from infecting others, as someone said condoms are not 100% protection, but abstinence is. Science could step in and help these people, chemical castration is possible and is done to sexual deviants.

There are more ways to spread aids then sex emiliano. It endangers those caring for aids patients if they accidently get a needle prick for example. It is better to address the problem in as many ways as possible because if one way isn't working maybe another way will. We should use "all" tools available to end needless suffering and death. I will again repeat, I am not saying the Pope has to condone the use of condoms, but he should not be saying they will in no way help to protect. That is untrue and therefore irresponsible and a lie. I thought lying was a sin?

 

[DallasApple]

It doesn't matter how readily available they are if nobody uses them.

This reminds me of the Texas teen pregnancy thread.Why would someone bother to wear a condom even if they are available to you if you are told that they arent "effective' in preventing the spread of disease?If your going to "risk it"why dull the full sentation of skin to skin contact or take the time to even go gets condoms..and interupt the love making session by stopping to put one on?Why bother with it if they dont work anyway?

Love

Dallas

 

[challupa]

It doesn't matter how readily available they are if nobody uses them.

That's exactly the point. If someone thinks that using condoms is a sin they will avoid using them. If that same person thinks abstinence is holy but succumbs to urges they couldn't fight off, then they have only sinned once I guess. At least they didn't sin twice and have illicit sex AND use a condom. :sarcastic

 

[DallasApple]

That's exactly the point. If someone thinks that using condoms is a sin they will avoid using them. If that same person thinks abstinence is holy but succumbs to urges they couldn't fight off, then they have only sinned once I guess. At least they didn't sin twice and have illicit sex AND use a condom. :sarcastic

Thats it too..If you are "prepared" to have sex by holding protection you are "planning' on possibly committing sin in the future.If you dotn have protection your mind and heart are "aiming" for "purity".If you have a condom..you might use that as an 'excuse" to go ahead and sin HORRIBLY by doing the God awful nasty act of sex.(on top of the fact they dont work anyway)

Love

Dallas