Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[emiliano]

That wouldn't make much sense, since the purpose of marriage is procreation. Obviously, they should get busy making AIDS babies -- and having them baptized, of course.

Abstinence would take care of both, wouldn’t it , no infected babies and no infected other. A double whammy! :shout

 

[emiliano]

I didn't like Pope Benny before he was even elected. After reading his bio I thought it was the biggest mistake to have him as pope, and this current incidence only reinforced my dislike for him. The pope proved to be manipulative, trying to push his archaic church agenda, and risking lives with irresponsible statements.

He should fix his own backyard than interfere with other people, outside of his flocks. Such as the pedophile priests. He should allowed the law to prosecute these men instead of hiding them and covering up their crimes with his facade of holiness and goodness.

Do these pedophile priests used condoms? I don't think so.

The whole vatican are just bunch of useless hypocrites, from the top down.

Craiky! The goalpost was moved yet again.

 

[emiliano]

Too bad abstinence has proven to be unrealistic and ineffective.

There is other solution, but folks in here are shocked. Abstinence can be achieved with the help of science.

 

[challupa]

Where is the lie, Abstinence is more effective than condoms, if this virtue is acquired then people will also be thoughtful and take care of all other venues by which they could infect some one else, but if they are encouraged to seek their lust at any risk, then what you going to give them? A conscience? A moral law? That has already been done, infected people have been asked not to give blood, infected people have been educated in good hygiene practices, they must disclose their condition, so as to prevent accidental infections, yet little inroads have been made. I think that is time for drastic measures, something that is 100% effective, this does not means that the search for a cure must goes on till one is found, but it is necessary to stop it and the most effectives measures applied even if causes pain.
Where is reported that he said "they will in no way help to protect" in the article?

In that particular article he does not say that. However, there are clergy that have actually said that the condoms are laced with the HIV virus in order to deter their following from using them. That is wrong and a lie. I should have been more specific. And yes, I know it was not the pope that uttered that specific piece of stupidity.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nowhere in the Bible is artificial birth control condemned. In fact it is not even mentioned.
(Onins sin was disobeying Gods order to get his sister-in-law pregnant, not for merely wasting his seed. The sin here would have been the same if he had refused to go into her in the first place.)
The basis of the Churches stance on condoms and birth control are based on two edicts.
The Casti Connubi of 1930 ". . . any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin"
The Humanae Vitae of 1968 "man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source."
These are Church Laws, not biblical laws of the New Testament.
Can a Church Law, or Canon, be reversed, or dropped if seen as no longer applicable, unjustified, or misguided?
Yes!
The Dum Diversas "We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery."

The Romanus Pontifex "-- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit --"

And the Inter caetera "Among other works well pleasing to the Divine Majesty and cherished of our heart, this assuredly ranks highest, that in our times especially the Catholic faith and the Christian religion be exalted and be everywhere increased and spread, that the health of souls be cared for and that barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself. ..."


These last three papal edicts led to war, colonialism, and slavery. Are they in effect today? No.

The Church has issued many misguided edicts, bulls, and canons that are no longer in effect today.

The Ad Exstirpanda set down rules for the torture of heretics, then Pope Alexander IV allowed absolution of those clerics who went to far in their torture.

So you see, as times and circumstances have changed, so has the Churches policies. Times have changed. Condoms help in the prevention of a terrible disease. If the Church refuses to reverse this policy, it, and the Pope, are responsible for the deaths of millions.

The past Church doctrines of war, slavery, colonialism and torture are an embarrassment to the Catholic religion, lets stop this injustice now.

 

[Mister Emu]

Untrue.

The only country in Africa with an AIDS program that is working is the only one which has put alot of resources into contraception programs.

How does Uganda disprove my assertion that condoms without an emphasis on sexual responsibility does not work? Uganda's program very much included a campaign promoting abstinence and faithfulness...

Too bad abstinence has proven to be unrealistic and ineffective.

See Uganda...

I can go back to the Church, actually I am in the process of doing just that

:woohoo: Though I must say I find your promotion of forced chemical castration extremely disturbing...

Tumbleweed... The Church existed before the Bible, the Bible is a part of Tradition, but Tradition encapsulates more than that... Human Vitae is considered dogmatic, and therefore un-overturnable...

 

[challupa]

How does Uganda disprove my assertion that condoms without an emphasis on sexual responsibility does not work? Uganda's program very much included a campaign promoting abstinence and faithfulness...


See Uganda...


:woohoo: Though I must say I find your promotion of forced chemical castration extremely disturbing...

Tumbleweed... The Church existed before the Bible, the Bible is a part of Tradition, but Tradition encapsulates more than that... Human Vitae is considered dogmatic, and therefore un-overturnable...

Yes and the Torah existed before the Church and the Ancient Egyptian religion existed before the Torah and and..... Mr. Emu, there is a book you should maybe read, just a suggestion of course, called With or Without God by Gretta Vosper. It is a really good read. Religions imo are all manmade trys at making sense of our world and feeling safe in it. They should therefore never be "written in stone" never to be changed when new information comes to light that makes our system yet again in need of changing. My opinion, not to offend you..

 

[Mister Emu]

Yes and the Torah existed before the Church and the Ancient Egyptian religion existed before the Torah and and.....

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that has to do with my post... I was noting that the Church doesn't use the Bible as the only source of doctrine...

Religions imo are all manmade trys at making sense of our world and feeling safe in it.

If the first is your view, then the following is understandable, I disagree, and therefore reject what follows

Respectful disagreement does not offend me

 

[linwood]

How does Uganda disprove my assertion that condoms without an emphasis on sexual responsibility does not work? Uganda's program very much included a campaign promoting abstinence and faithfulness...

it doesn`t.
It provides evidence that the Vatican's edict is willfully ignorant.

See Uganda...

Yes Uganda.
I am not against abstinence education Mr.Emu.
I am in fact for it, I do know however that it doesn`t work in the vast majority of cases.
If you think for a moment the abstinence part of Uganda's program is why they`re successful you too are being willfully ignorant.

 

[Smoke]

Abstinence would take care of both, wouldn’t it , no infected babies and no infected other. A double whammy! :shout

Since the purpose of marriage, according to the Catholic Church, is reproduction, abstinence within marriage would go against the purpose of marriage.

 

[challupa]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that has to do with my post... I was noting that the Church doesn't use the Bible as the only source of doctrine...


If the first is your view, then the following is understandable, I disagree, and therefore reject what follows

Respectful disagreement does not offend me

I was referring to this: "Human Vitae is considered dogmatic, and therefore un-overturnable..." being written. I was alluding to the books and beliefs that came before Christianity and that things do change based on our understanding of our times.

I hope I was able to be respectful in my disagreement

 

[Mister Emu]

it doesn`t.
It provides evidence that the Vatican's edict is willfully ignorant.

It doesn't really reflect one way or the other on "Condoms aren't the answer"...

Yes Uganda.
I am not against abstinence education Mr.Emu.
I am in fact for it, I do know however that it doesn`t work in the vast majority of cases.

Hmm, I agree, Abstinence education isn't effective, it takes a cultural shift in ideas towards sexuality...

If you think for a moment the abstinence part of Uganda's program is why they`re successful you too are being willfully ignorant.

It was a mix of all of the parts, from the government's ABC, to the grassroots efforts towards changing the Ugandan culture's way of thinking about both AIDS and sex. Education about AIDS, and a limiting of tainted medical supplies...

I was referring to this: "Human Vitae is considered dogmatic, and therefore un-overturnable..." being written. I was alluding to the books and beliefs that came before Christianity and that things do change based on our understanding of our times.

Ok... but none of those things was Catholic dogma

 

[linwood]

It doesn't really reflect one way or the other on "Condoms aren't the answer"...

Yes it does as condoms are at least "part" of the answer.
An important part.
Catholic representatives (including the Pope)have not only said they aren`t the answer they have said they are part of the problem .
This we both know is a dangerous lie.

Hmm, I agree, Abstinence education isn't effective, it takes a cultural shift in ideas towards sexuality...

Yes, there are so many things in our world that require change and so many people have a hard time understanding why we can`t just change a thing(I am guilty of this myself).
It`s because so many of these things are so ingrained in our cultural pysche we must first change the culture.
This is an extremely difficult sometimes nearly impossible thing to do.

It was a mix of all of the parts, from the government's ABC, to the grassroots efforts towards changing the Ugandan culture's way of thinking about both AIDS and sex. Education about AIDS, and a limiting of tainted medical supplies...

Exactly, and the other nations of Africa are evidence that when you remove even one part of that ABC concept, the whole damn thing fails.

I believe you are an extremist Christian Mr Emu.
Many people here believe I am an extremist atheist.

Yet you and I often in one way or another seem to find a way to come to agreement even if it is simply an agreement to disagree.

That gives me hope and it makes me happy.

Thank you.

 

[challupa]

Ok... but none of those things was Catholic dogma

No, they wern't, but they believed they were just as right as Catholic dogma believes it is right. That was my point. However, it doesn't matter.

 

[Mister Emu]

Catholic representatives (including the Pope)have not only said they aren`t the answer they have said they are part of the problem .
This we both know is a dangerous lie.

I guess we disagree on how to take what the Pope said... I think he was saying only distributing condoms without a concerted effort for sexual responsibility is part of the problem, and that I agree with...

Yes, there are so many things in our world that require change and so many people have a hard time understanding why we can`t just change a thing(I am guilty of this myself).
It`s because so many of these things are so ingrained in our cultural pysche we must first change the culture.
This is an extremely difficult sometimes nearly impossible thing to do.

Indeed However, I think that in this case is a nessecary venture...

I believe you are an extremist Christian Mr Emu.
Many people here believe I am an extremist atheist.

Yet you and I often in one way or another seem to find a way to come to agreement even if it is simply an agreement to disagree.

That gives me hope and it makes me happy.

Thank you.

Yep,

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What the church preaches is a virtue that has a manyfold application on all the areas were lust lead many to perdition, this virtue when fully develops can cure alcoholism, drug addictions, obesity, STDs, immoral conduct, etc..

Ah... and posessing a condom inherently leads to lust and perdition.

?? So what is it? Is or isn’t 100% effective? If it is. What else should the pope counsel his flock?

Telling people to practice abstinence doesn't result in all the people you tell actually practicing abstinence, and experience has shown that it makes it less likely that the ones who don't practice it will properly protect themselves from STDs.

As I asked. How long have the secular authorities been distributing free condoms in Africa? How effective their campaign been? And we do have the means to stop pregnant women from passing the virus. Abstinence my boy, Abstinence

Abstinence It is a 100% effective solution to this crisis.

I'm not "your boy".

And I was referring to pregnant women who are HIV positive. If they're given the proper drugs during pregnancy, their probability of passing the disease to their baby during childbirth drops from more than 90% to less than 5%.

What I am saying is that science could help the morally weak to abstain, to applied the solution that is 100% effective, how much more would it cost than trying to find a cure or vaccination?

I have no idea. I haven't done a cost comparison and I don't plan to, because I find your solution to be reprehensible.

It seems to me that the effective solution is already here but that there are interests that don’t want to apply it and that it got to do with making money out this tragic situation. There are no cure for this disease but is not due to lack of funds, it is greed that stops the effective solution.

I think it's a number of factors. Right up there, IMO, is the problem that terms like "Millenium Development Goals" tend to be a lot less exciting than terms like "war" and therefore get less press time, less public attention, and therefore matter less politically.

Well I hope that you recovered and answer this , what can you tell us about the commercial exploitation of these people? If infected people are help or compel to abstain from sexual activities, what would became of the manufactures of drug that heighten these drives even in the elderly, the sex toy, condoms producer? The maker of condoms don’t give them away for free.

I'm not sure I follow you? Are you saying that the failure of abstinence education in Africa is somehow because of some conspiracy by the producers of Viagra, sex toys and condoms?

 

[tumbleweed41]

.

Tumbleweed... The Church existed before the Bible, the Bible is a part of Tradition, but Tradition encapsulates more than that... Human Vitae is considered dogmatic, and therefore un-overturnable...

The last two Dogmas released by the church were the Immaculate Conception and the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Release in 1854 and 1950.
The Human Vitae is not Dogma, it is an Encyclical Letter, from Pope Paul VI.

Since it is not Dogma, it is subject to change by the current Pope and/or Council of Bishops.

 

[emiliano]

In that particular article he does not say that. However, there are clergy that have actually said that the condoms are laced with the HIV virus in order to deter their following from using them. That is wrong and a lie. I should have been more specific. And yes, I know it was not the pope that uttered that specific piece of stupidity.

If you are concern about this, and it seems that you are, write or e-mail this information to the pertinent authorities. I am sure that the Vatican will be interested in correcting this ministers that are damaging the RCC reputation, overzealously is a damaging trait, and there is no need to go to those extremes to teach the unlearnt.

 

[emiliano]

:woohoo: Though I must say I find your promotion of forced chemical castration extremely disturbin..

It’s just that people that say that abstinence is impossible are wrong, you added the “forced” thing in, I believe that Christians can seek science's help and voluntarily summit to the treatment. Mat 18:9 And if your eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.
Now if sexual lust is the problem? Wouldn’t rendering oneself impotent do the trick?
The secular law has harsh penalties for individual that knowing of their condition have unprotected sex, they are put in jail for years, that is forced something, Isn’t it?
Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Wow. I wonder whose discourse this is? Are you extremely disturbed yet? :sarcastic
I like to give people a shock treatment, and it seems that the Lord in His ministry did that often as well.

 

[emiliano]

Penguin;1475037]Ah...

and posessing a condom inherently leads to lust and perdition.

Ah you didn’t get, it keeps them there (in their sins/lust), mind you that we mostly referring to STDs, The pope massage is addressed to Christians, and as I said is call to develops virtues, a repented but infected Christian must atone for his sin, that is to be driven by lust, the story was it would be good for these people to carry a condom, just in case they can’t abstain, it was suggested that condoms aren’t 100% effective so this people are still engaging in risky business.

Telling people to practice abstinence doesn't result in all the people you tell actually practicing abstinence, and experience has shown that it makes it less likely that the ones who don't practice it will properly protect themselves from STDs.
I'm not "your boy".

I’ll have to repeat myself, the pope addressed his directive to Christians, Christians are mostly repented sinner and some are under just punishment, if they insist in their merry way they might contract a STD and die physically and spiritually. What can we do, apart of not getting even near them and apply precautions if we have to be in their environment.

And I was referring to pregnant women who are HIV positive. If they're given the proper drugs during pregnancy, their probability of passing the disease to their baby during childbirth drops from more than 90% to less than 5%.

I am not opposed to seek science’s help in this, only 5% from 90%, wow. Then just send them ships loads of the stuff and let them produce responsible, self-controlled individuals. Is there any body campaigning for this? Maybe the RCC would be interested, if I can convince my family to go back to the RCC, I will but there is great resistance in my household, to many RCC bashing sermons perhaps, but I’ll work on it.

I have no idea. I haven't done a cost comparison and I don't plan to, because I find your solution to be reprehensible.

Yeap, I thought that you weren’t interested in anything but criticize, but the truth is that in this day and age abstinence is possible, and that science can help. I like science!

I think it's a number of factors. Right up there, IMO, is the problem that terms like "Millenium Development Goals" tend to be a lot less exciting than terms like "war" and therefore get less press time, less public attention, and therefore matter less politically.

I’ll give a better one, genocide. By given these people (Africans) free contraception, their race might even disappear, what is the real agenda here, the reduction of their population, that they don’t breed, right?

I'm not sure I follow you? Are you saying that the failure of abstinence education in Africa is somehow because of some conspiracy by the producers of Viagra, sex toys and condoms?

It is that the West is so good at marketing sex, condoms are mostly a product that allows you to have sex without consequences, teenager are their target, then there is the problem that old age curves our desires for sex and there is no threats of unwanted pregnancies, so we get Viagra advertised all over the place, cures for impotence are big business and are financed by the same capital investments. This are the people behind the campaigns against abstinence.