Pork versus Goat !

[Saint Frankenstein]

My religion accepts that we are animals. Herbivores are not more righteous than carnivores. Each simply follows his nature. Humans are predators - that's at least one aspect of our nature.

Anyway, to me it's not about eating meat or killing. That's just a fact of life. The question is how can we do it while causing the least amount of suffering and harm. Also, we should cut down on the amount of meat we eat, but fish for example is very healthy.

 

[Father Heathen]

Killing on purpose (for human beings that is) is seen as a negative act. Because we can not know if the animal we kill once was a human being (reincarnation)
Well we do need to eat some form of nourishment and the least amount of karma comes from eating vegetarian food.(before you ask, Yes it does create karma too when killing microbes) but it is not done in intention to kill. The intention of killing an animal like elk or a deer is to kill to eat it is seen as morally wrong action.
But maybe it has different rules for non-Buddhists,

I'm just trying to figure out how it's weighed, measured, and meted. Seems like a rather arbitrary system to me.

 

[ChristineM]

Duck is best. If you disagree you are a heretic.

I actually dont like duck much (but will eat it if there is no alternative). Living in canard country i am considered a heretic by some.

Pork is a regular, equally spaced with beef, chicken. Goat on rare occasion, like canard i am not great on the flavour but i do adore goats cheese

 

[Polymath257]

I'm not sure why eating animals is any less moral than eating plants. Plants, after all, are also alive, interact with their environment, reproduce,etc. They don't have a face, but if eating bacteria brings on a karmic hit, I fail to see why killing a carrot plant to eat the roots doesn't also.Plants are certainly much more advanced than bacteria.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm just trying to figure out how it's weighed, measured, and meted. Seems like a rather arbitrary system to me.

It take time to realize how karma affects us, so no surprise you feel it sound arbitrary But it is very logical when realized

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm not sure why eating animals is any less moral than eating plants. Plants, after all, are also alive, interact with their environment, reproduce,etc. They don't have a face, but if eating bacteria brings on a karmic hit, I fail to see why killing a carrot plant to eat the roots doesn't also.Plants are certainly much more advanced than bacteria.

Do you think someone could live on bacteria?
If it was forbidden or evil to eat plants the teaching would tell so.
a very few humans who cultivate on a very high level can do something called Bigu.

A Bigu Diet seeks to replace physical food with qi, or energy. The goal of Bigu is to be “too full of qi to eat.” Through meditation and breathing exercises, a person practicing Bigu tries to gain as many nutrients from the world around him/her without actually consuming anything

Amanaki isn't there yet

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Goat is probably healthier, closer to a venison. All animals die, and I do not consider lions to be immoral though all they eat mammals and bugs. Humans are the only creatures which may ponder morality and should not killed for food out of respect for that facility and one other fact that they are our own. Goats are herbivores mostly but are no more moral than lions or pigs. The bottom line is they are not human. I'm not going to equate the killing of a goat and that of a human. The deaths are the same but not the killing. Cruelty I do equate, and it is equally wrong to be cruel to a goat as to a human. For food? I think goats are fair game.

So all omnivorous or carnivorous animals are evil beings, despite their diet being part of their biological nature?

My religion accepts that we are animals. Herbivores are not more righteous than carnivores. Each simply follows his nature. Humans are predators - that's at least one aspect of our nature.

Anyway, to me it's not about eating meat or killing. That's just a fact of life. The question is how can we do it while causing the least amount of suffering and harm. Also, we should cut down on the amount of meat we eat, but fish for example is very healthy.

I'm not sure why eating animals is any less moral than eating plants. Plants, after all, are also alive, interact with their environment, reproduce,etc. They don't have a face, but if eating bacteria brings on a karmic hit, I fail to see why killing a carrot plant to eat the roots doesn't also.Plants are certainly much more advanced than bacteria.

This always seems to come up on these debates. So here's my view:
There are a number of reasons why we don't judge the dietary behavior of non-human animals. First among them is that they arguably do not have the logical means of processing the decision to eat or not eat certain types of food based on broad ethical evaluation. A dog, which is an omnivore, does not look between the rabbit and beans and think 'I could get all the nutrients I need from the latter without utilizing the former.' Humans can. Some animals, like cats and snakes and weasels, are obligate carnivores and depend on meat to stay healthy. Humans do not.

Humans do not need meat to be healthy, if anything we only tolerate mostly processed (re: cooked) meats. We do it purely for enjoyment. Which means that, by it's very nature, human carnivory is causing unnecessary suffering. Especially considering the advanced capacity for animals to feel pain compared to plants, and fungi.

And I'm speaking as someone who is not a vegetarian. But I understand and accept that my carnivory doesn't just cause suffering but unnecessary suffering.

 

[Augustus]

I personally find most pig products gross, especially... pork chops.

You are fake news!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Can we go beyond "bad or good"... to "which one is better for you?"

Certainly, what goes into the mouth comes out on the other side but we can agree that Coke, Chips, Hamburgers as a food source will help a child grow but will eventually catch up in the body with a shorter life-span.

He/she may die early... but he/she will definitely die happy!

I think pig just has more possibility of containing toxins and parasites. Maybe because of what they eat? Or are capable of eating?

It's like eating oysters vs scaled fish... you have a higher potential of dying if you eat oysters because of the contaminants. You can die early, if you like oysters, but you will die happy

Pork today is very clean. There are benefits of factory farming.
not so
In the old days one had to worry about pork and parasites but not nearly so much today. In fact the USDA says that it is safe to cook pork only to medium rare:

This Is the Secret to Juicy Pork Chops, Tenderloin, and More

I grew up with medium well to well done pork so I don't know if I could switch.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Taste is an attachment, eating means you eat food(nourishment) food is food, it is the killing of the animal that leads to karma.
So killing an animal for food gives a lot of karma.
Not everyone believes this of course.

Then I have eaten plenty of pork that must have raised my karma. The pig died happy and went immediately to pork heaven.

 

[Cloverfield]

The change took place over a period of time.don't try to stop in one day then you can become sick.
The attachments to the taste of meat is often huge for meat-eaters, who say, can not eat dinner without meat But when the mindset over time say it is better to only eat vegetarian or vegan food, it becomes easier to do the transition.
In the beginning when all meat has been removed from the diet, yes one does feel less energic and mostly hungry because to eat the same amount of calories by vegetarian food, means you must eat more, But actually, we tend to eat too much anyway, so a smaller meal over time is normal
But vegetarian and especially vegan must remember to take supplement of B-12

I cant say I have ever eaten meat for the taste as the aromas ''taste'' better than the meat tastes in reality . It is quite interesting that smell can deceive the mind into thinking what smells nice is tasty to eat . I find meat quite bland if I am being totally honestly and if it was not for the garnishing's it would resemble chewing on cardboard .
I also find some of these so called professional chefs quite disgusting and a danger to society , these so called master chefs giving people bloody uncooked foods that are a health risk compared to meats cooked well done .
Poultry and the very humble chicken and the egg would be my preferred choice of meat but even chickens are alive so the reality is we are just mostly horrible human beings that couldn't care less about other life except our own species.

 

[Augustus]

Some animals, like cats and snakes and weasels, are obligate carnivores and depend on meat to stay healthy. Humans do not.

Humans do not need meat to be healthy, if anything we only tolerate mostly processed (re: cooked) meats. We do it purely for enjoyment.

That's actually debatable...

Is vegetarianism healthy for children?
Cofnas N
Abstract
According to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics' influential position statement on vegetarianism, meat and seafood can be replaced with milk, soy/legumes, and eggs without any negative effects in children. The United States Department of Agriculture endorses a similar view. The present paper argues that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics ignores or gives short shrift to direct and indirect evidence that vegetarianism may be associated with serious risks for brain and body development in fetuses and children. Regular supplementation with iron, zinc, and B12 will not mitigate all of these risks. Consequently, we cannot say decisively that vegetarianism or veganism is safe for children.

Is vegetarianism healthy for children? - PubMed - NCBI

Would Carnosine or a Carnivorous Diet Help Suppress Aging and Associated Pathologies?
ALAN R. HIPKISS
First published: 10 May 2006

https://doi.org/10.1196/annals.1354.052

Cited by: 26
Abstract
Abstract: Carnosine (β‐alanyl‐l‐histidine) is found exclusively in animal tissues. Carnosine has the potential to suppress many of the biochemical changes (e.g., protein oxidation, glycation, AGE formation, and cross‐linking) that accompany aging and associated pathologies. Glycation, generation of advanced glycosylation end‐products (AGEs), and formation of protein carbonyl groups play important roles in aging, diabetes, its secondary complications, and neurodegenerative conditions. Due to carnosine's antiglycating activity, reactivity toward deleterious carbonyls, zinc‐ and copper‐chelating activity and low toxicity, carnosine and related structures could be effective against age‐related protein carbonyl stress. It is suggested that carnivorous diets could be beneficial because of their carnosine content, as the dipeptide has been shown to suppress some diabetic complications in mice. It is also suggested that carnosine's therapeutic potential should be explored with respect to neurodegeneration. Olfactory tissue is normally enriched in carnosine, but olfactory dysfunction is frequently associated with neurodegeneration. Olfactory administration of carnosine could provide a direct route to compromised tissue, avoiding serum carnosinases.


Vegan diets ‘risk insufficient intake’ of nutrient critical for brain health
Moving away from diets rich in animal products could have 'unintended consequences' for the consumption of choline

The increasing popularity of plant-based and vegan diets risks lowering the intake of a nutrient critical for brain health that is mainly found in animal foods, a nutritionist has said.

Moving away from diets rich in animal products could have "unintended consequences" for the consumption of choline, according to an article in respected medical journal BMJ, entitled: "Could we be overlooking a potential choline crisis in the United Kingdom?"


The essential dietary nutrient is critical for brain health, particularly during foetal development, and also influences liver function.

Vegan diets ‘risk insufficient intake’ of nutrient critical for brain health

 

[Kenny]

Pork today is very clean. There are benefits of factory farming.
not so
In the old days one had to worry about pork and parasites but not nearly so much today. In fact the USDA says that it is safe to cook pork only to medium rare:

This Is the Secret to Juicy Pork Chops, Tenderloin, and More

I grew up with medium well to well done pork so I don't know if I could switch.

I enjoy some slices of bacon every now and them. Enjoy ham and eggs too!

 

[Brickjectivity]

This always seems to come up on these debates. So here's my view:
There are a number of reasons why we don't judge the dietary behavior of non-human animals. First among them is that they arguably do not have the logical means of processing the decision to eat or not eat certain types of food based on broad ethical evaluation. A dog, which is an omnivore, does not look between the rabbit and beans and think 'I could get all the nutrients I need from the latter without utilizing the former.' Humans can. Some animals, like cats and snakes and weasels, are obligate carnivores and depend on meat to stay healthy. Humans do not.

Humans do not need meat to be healthy, if anything we only tolerate mostly processed (re: cooked) meats. We do it purely for enjoyment. Which means that, by it's very nature, human carnivory is causing unnecessary suffering. Especially considering the advanced capacity for animals to feel pain compared to plants, and fungi.

And I'm speaking as someone who is not a vegetarian. But I understand and accept that my carnivory doesn't just cause suffering but unnecessary suffering.

I acknowledge your point. I also grasp it and cut my hand with it in order to make a point of my own. We are suffering beings. We suffer every day of our lives. It is part of being a mammal and of being human. Suffering is necessary to be conscious. Extreme suffering should be avoided, but some suffering is necessary if only to achieve consciousness. It is not as if a mammal can thrive without it. It is not automatically evil. A creature with no pain is not even awake. It is asleep or dead. This matters, because you can't easily define unnecessary suffering. You can define what is unbearable suffering or too much, but that is different. Its questionable whether the death of an animal equals the death of a human. We suffer over existential questions. That is part of our value. That suffering makes us better than beings with no such suffering, so suffering is not by itself evil. It is unbearable, or too much or enough.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That's actually debatable...

Is vegetarianism healthy for children?
Cofnas N
Abstract
According to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics' influential position statement on vegetarianism, meat and seafood can be replaced with milk, soy/legumes, and eggs without any negative effects in children. The United States Department of Agriculture endorses a similar view. The present paper argues that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics ignores or gives short shrift to direct and indirect evidence that vegetarianism may be associated with serious risks for brain and body development in fetuses and children. Regular supplementation with iron, zinc, and B12 will not mitigate all of these risks. Consequently, we cannot say decisively that vegetarianism or veganism is safe for children.

Is vegetarianism healthy for children? - PubMed - NCBI

Would Carnosine or a Carnivorous Diet Help Suppress Aging and Associated Pathologies?
ALAN R. HIPKISS
First published: 10 May 2006

https://doi.org/10.1196/annals.1354.052

Cited by: 26
Abstract
Abstract: Carnosine (β‐alanyl‐l‐histidine) is found exclusively in animal tissues. Carnosine has the potential to suppress many of the biochemical changes (e.g., protein oxidation, glycation, AGE formation, and cross‐linking) that accompany aging and associated pathologies. Glycation, generation of advanced glycosylation end‐products (AGEs), and formation of protein carbonyl groups play important roles in aging, diabetes, its secondary complications, and neurodegenerative conditions. Due to carnosine's antiglycating activity, reactivity toward deleterious carbonyls, zinc‐ and copper‐chelating activity and low toxicity, carnosine and related structures could be effective against age‐related protein carbonyl stress. It is suggested that carnivorous diets could be beneficial because of their carnosine content, as the dipeptide has been shown to suppress some diabetic complications in mice. It is also suggested that carnosine's therapeutic potential should be explored with respect to neurodegeneration. Olfactory tissue is normally enriched in carnosine, but olfactory dysfunction is frequently associated with neurodegeneration. Olfactory administration of carnosine could provide a direct route to compromised tissue, avoiding serum carnosinases.


Vegan diets ‘risk insufficient intake’ of nutrient critical for brain health
Moving away from diets rich in animal products could have 'unintended consequences' for the consumption of choline

The increasing popularity of plant-based and vegan diets risks lowering the intake of a nutrient critical for brain health that is mainly found in animal foods, a nutritionist has said.

Moving away from diets rich in animal products could have "unintended consequences" for the consumption of choline, according to an article in respected medical journal BMJ, entitled: "Could we be overlooking a potential choline crisis in the United Kingdom?"


The essential dietary nutrient is critical for brain health, particularly during foetal development, and also influences liver function.

Vegan diets ‘risk insufficient intake’ of nutrient critical for brain health

Ignoring for the moment that given enough time I'm sure I could find articles in opposition to these conclusions because biochemistry and dietry is a complex, individualistic and nuanced study, this is a reductive argument.

Even if we were to conclude that children shouldn't ever be vegetarian (and there is no good reason to), we are not children.
Even if we were to conclude that carnivory could reduce aging (rather than a small part of what makes aging), it doesn't change the many other negative associations with meat eating, such as certain types of cancer and heart disease.
Even if we were to conclude you cannot get all nutrients through a vegan diet (which is not true) vegetarianism isnt veganism, and supplements are a thing.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I eat pork , I don't or have never eaten goat. Now some people say pork is bad where I feel goat is bad .
What we eat is just dinner and can't see any reason why anyone can object to what others eat as long as we are not eating each other . Now I know this may seem strange to some people but in true reflection of the subject , I am objectively correct and it is rather silly to have any sorts of hate over what others eat . Some people eat insects etc , we eat what we have in resources and do try to survive the best way we can .
So do you think all religions who I personally always associate common ground that we are all people , should forget about any sort of food fights ?
Now I don't like to see hate over stupid silly little things such as what we eat , do any of you disagree with my wisdom that I have stated in this post ?

I agree that having religious restrictions on what people eat is just plain silly. It's the same with religions that try and control sexual interactions between consenting adults. As far as I'm concerned it's just another example of how religious laws don't come from any god, but are rules made up by human beings attempting to exert control over fellow human beings.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I enjoy some slices of bacon every now and them. Enjoy ham and eggs too!

Medium rare bacon <shudder!>

 

[Augustus]

Ignoring for the moment that given enough time I'm sure I could find articles in opposition to these conclusions because biochemistry and dietry is a complex, individualistic and nuanced study, this is a reductive argument.

It's not a reductive argument to note that something is debatable based on contradictory scientific evidence.

And if it is complex, why assume it is settled fact that we don't need meat to be healthy? One thing is certain, with complex systems we generally know a lot less than we think we do. We have a terrible track record with dietary advice for this reason.

Seeing as we evolved to eat meat, I wouldn't consider it self-evident that it is perfectly healthy to avoid it given the complexities of the human body.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I acknowledge your point. I also grasp it and cut my hand with it in order to make a point of my own. We are suffering beings. We suffer every day of our lives. It is part of being a mammal and of being human. Suffering is necessary to be conscious. Extreme suffering should be avoided, but some suffering is necessary if only to achieve consciousness. It is not as if a mammal can thrive without it. It is not automatically evil. A creature with no pain is not even awake. It is asleep or dead. This matters, because you can't easily define unnecessary suffering. You can define what is unbearable suffering or too much, but that is different. Its questionable whether the death of an animal equals the death of a human. We suffer over existential questions. That is part of our value. That suffering makes us better than beings with no such suffering, so suffering is not by itself evil. It is unbearable, or too much or enough.

I entirely agree with you that suffering, in general, is a necessary part of all life. Human or otherwise. I just can't see any way to conclude that the suffering caused by meat farming could be construed as necessary. Which is why I believe meat eating causes unnecessary suffering.

I'm also not a human exceptionalism and do not believe human life has more value than other life. But I don't think that factors into my conclusion. Unless someone concludes that humans, by nature of having the capacity to process suffering to a deeper extent than other animals means humans deserve to cause them more suffering for something we don't need. I certainly don't believe so.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I eat pork , I don't or have never eaten goat. Now some people say pork is bad where I feel goat is bad .

I don'y eat pork. It's a Jewish thing ...

Goat, slow-cooked with onions, mushrooms, celery and root vegetables (carrots, parsnips, rutabaga, etc.), along with a nice Cotes du Rhone GSM, makes a great winter meal.