"Pornography Offends the Holy Ghost"

[Curious George]

That claim is far too general. And even your studies do not show a significant harm, and some are contradicted by statistics. For example it can easily be shown that an increase in porn correlates with a decrease in rape. Supposedly one of the outcomes of porn is a decreased sensitivity in rape in the study that you cited. Yet statistics indicates that regardless people are less likely to rape. When it comes to studies such as the one that you cited it is almost impossible for the people doing the study to remove their own bias. That is why the conclusions are often doubted. Stats disagree, and they are much more difficult to be biased.

Also that study supported me. But then you ignored that fact. When you have got rid of your strawman perhaps we can have a discussion. Having a bit of trouble burning it I see.

I am not talking about porn in general or the accessibility of porn in general. My only claim was that in our society, exposing young children to porn correlates with harm....at one point I think I shifted and said is harmful. I acknowledged that doing this was an oversight and went back to my former claim.

That is what you have been arguing. I am sorry if you think I was discussing porn and society at large. But I never made such claims. I have only been discussing the idea that children being exposed to sexual activity which is not age appropriate, given our society, is not good.


This is the claim that you do not believe, because you have not been shown proof. This is the claim you are arguing against. This is no strawman.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not talking about porn in general or the accessibility of porn in general. My only claim was that in our society, exposing young children to porn correlates with harm....at one point I think I shifted and said is harmful. I acknowledged that doing this was an oversight and went back to my former claim.

That is what you have been arguing. I am sorry if you think I was discussing porn and society at large. But I never made such claims. I have only been discussing the idea that children being exposed to sexual activity which is not age appropriate, given our society, is not good.


This is the claim that you do not believe, because you have not been shown proof. This is the claim you are arguing against. This is no strawman.

You are ignoring the fact that a long time ago you asked the bogus question about should we expose children to porn. And you have been basing your arguments against others by strawmanning their replies. Do you not remember my correction that the question is not "should" but what is the correct way for parents to react when their children are exposed to porn.

Let's get back on track. The subject of the thread is the video. Is it a good video or a poor one? In my opinion it is a terrible one. It is not honest about pron and does not deal with the matter appropriately.

 

[Prestor John]

I expect that you disagree. I don't believe they will.

I reread your post that I commented on and I have to admit that I read it wrong.

I thought you were saying that pornography would somehow become a "good thing" if society were more upfront and open about sexual matters.

Even though I believe that pornography should always be avoided, I see no harm in parents being more upfront about sex with their children.

I am in no way advocating parents having sex in front of their kids or encouraging their children to become sexually active.

I'm just saying that parents need to prepare their children for life and sex is a huge part of it.

 

[Prestor John]

How do you figure?

Pornography can create unbecoming expectations about sex.

Not to mention that pornography tends to promote the ideas of adultery, incest and rape.

 

[Prestor John]

That's funny. There's more to romantic relationships than the body. I think your referring to having a tryst.

Obviously there is more to our romantic relationships than our bodies.

No one ever claimed that there wasn't.

Yet, our bodies do affect every other aspect of our lives.

The unhealthy images and expectations generated in someone's mind can cause rifts in their romantic relationships.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Pornography can create unbecoming expectations about sex.

Not to mention that pornography tends to promote the ideas of adultery, incest and rape.

Actually no, the statistics tell us that pornography lowers the rape rate. It may "promote adultery" but then that is simply a reality in this world. There is also quite a bit of interest in sex with step relatives, if you look at what is watched. That is probably due to the many families that have children from different parents in them.

Yes, porno is largely unrealistic make believe. And just as parents teach children that they really can't shoot spider webs from their wrists, they also need to teach them that porn does not reflect the real world. Just because a person's religion has an unhealthy attitude towards sex does not make porn bad. Parents need to learn how to separate out their fantasy from reality when teaching children too.

 

[sayak83]

I reread your post that I commented on and I have to admit that I read it wrong.

I thought you were saying that pornography would somehow become a "good thing" if society were more upfront and open about sexual matters.

Even though I believe that pornography should always be avoided, I see no harm in parents being more upfront about sex with their children.

I am in no way advocating parents having sex in front of their kids or encouraging their children to become sexually active.

I'm just saying that parents need to prepare their children for life and sex is a huge part of it.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Pornography can create unbecoming expectations about sex.

I don't believe there's any evidence to suggest this is the case for moderate users. As with anything, of course, it can become unhealthy if overindulged.

Not to mention that pornography tends to promote the ideas of adultery, incest and rape.

Um... it does? That hasn't been my experience. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is a common property of porn?[

 

[Mock Turtle]

"Just definitions - it may not be recognised by some as an addiction, but if you can't give it up then basically it is an addiction."

Just out of curiosity, why?

Because it is essentially this, for many at least - the heavy users, for example - where it is often just a displacement activity or a means to escape from reality - which is that their actual sexual life (involving others) is entirely barren. Ask any who do daily view porn in larger amounts, legal or illegal, as to whether they consider it an addiction. And while doing so, ask if they their viewing habit has moved on to more extreme forms.

If pron is a fact that means that there were other serious issues. Blaming a breakup solely on porn seems unreasonable to me.

Not sure whether we have any figures on this but I believe it is cited in some of the links I gave. I must admit, I have not been looking at this area for some time, hence my only scraping a few examples together.

I don't know of anything done today that was not done in the past. And the changes that have occurred can be arguably said to be for the better. For example porn lets women know that there are more positions than just missionary. That increases the odds of sex being a satisfying experience for them too.

Not sure how old you are but I would differ here. Referring to the following link, I would guess that anal was not exactly that popular many decades ago, or even now for females it appears since it seems to figure in their fantasies a lot less than for males. And where might this have come from? The obvious change has been the amount of porn available and the popularity of this in porn. Hardly likely to be another reason.

Scientists Have Discovered How Common Different Sexual Fantasies Are

Breast implants have been with us for some time. And before them there were all sorts of ways of faking it. The idea of a stuffed bra probably goes all the way back to the invention of the brassiere. And I am betting that labiaplasty is still very rare. Do you have any stats on it? Increasing from one out of one thousand to two out of one thousand would be a "doubling" but it still would be insignificant.

I haven't any stats on labiaplasty but apparently it has increased over the last decade or so. It seems to be becoming more popular, and which seems to be inspired by the porn industry. And of course we have the removal of all pubic hair, which we know has occurred in the past, but as it seems to be de rigour for almost all porn stars these days, one might assign an influence here too.

Since with the availability of porn the rate of rape has dropped I find that supposed claim rather humorous:

Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault

I didn't say that porn was inherently bad, or that it might actually solve some issues, but I do think that overall it has been a disaster - which is what humans tend to do all the time. We allow things to develop with hardly any sense of possible futures and then try to pick up the pieces later. Like me to cite a few? Like the plastic in our oceans contaminating and destroying marine life; the space junk that might be threatening the ability to use space effectively; and now porn, which is becoming increasingly difficult to control.

 

[Enoch07]

I did. You at best did not understand the refutation. I am not the one in denial here. I can quote your article again, which I did from the start, where it pointed out that not enough research had been done to come to a well supported conclusion. The article that you linked disqualified itself. But then it is the thinnest of straws and you must keep clutching it.

How many times must you be told your opinion is not refutation of a scientific study. Please cite some counter evidence, an article, anything that supports your claim.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Whatever you want to call it, it's not specific to porn as those behaviors can form with just about any activity. The issue there is the underlying cause, which is not the porn itself. It's usually depression or other mental health condition, a traumatic life event, etc.

The problem is more related to sexual disfunction (in my view), where those more addicted (or using excessively if you like) might be relying on porn so as not to bother, or deal with actual relationships. Which can hardly be useful, especially for females, when they are more likely to simply objectify females as being their appearance rather than anything else.

Regardless, the data on porn and relationships is a mixed bag. Some studies say it can cause problems and others say it is helps relationships. It's not surprising that it can go either way.

I'm not disputing that it can often help in relationships - it is just the nature and amount of this that I don't see as of any real benefit.

How is the "nature of sex" changing? What was the "nature of sex" beforehand? I'm not aware of sex changing that much, just that we're more open in talking about stuff people were already doing.

See the link in the previous post. I doubt this would have applied decades ago.

Porn may influence those surgeries but it's a cultural issue beyond that. People often don't realize that what is popular in porn is merely a reflection of society's views of and taste in sex. So if there's racism, sexism, idealization of certain body types, etc. in porn, it was already there in society. There's also a lot of porn that doesn't reflect that. There's all types of porn for all tastes. So I wouldn't say the problem is porn itself but the society that it is reflecting. As tastes change, so does porn.

I don't believe this. As I mentioned somewhere, I can remember when sexual images did become more explicit, and it was mostly commercial success driving this - I can't remember the actual magazines then but Club International might have been one of the first to show more explicit images - and the rest followed. Then the internet came along.

No, I do try hard. I have no idea what search terms you're using or if you've accidentally turned the filter off. Lol.

Google Images and the links they often provide at the top - no terms in the initial search that should have provided any explicit sexual images.

 

[Mock Turtle]

After citing statistics that tell us that porn is not a problem, merely that many people have an interest in it, you then link to a bogus anti-porn article. Yes, lots of people watch lots of porn. And the stats that you used indicated that men do not watch what would be called "violent porn" that seems to be more of an interest to women, ironically enough. Psychologists that have more than a mere opinion do not seem to share your views as far as I can see.

It is not that one-sided, since there are plenty who do see problems. It's just that some seem able to ignore all this.

 

[Curious George]

You are ignoring the fact that a long time ago you asked the bogus question about should we expose children to porn. And you have been basing your arguments against others by strawmanning their replies. Do you not remember my correction that the question is not "should" but what is the correct way for parents to react when their children are exposed to porn.

Oh no, I remember. Trying to get you to acknowledge that it is common sense that Porn is not harmless to young children was like pulling teeth.

Let's get back on track. The subject of the thread is the video. Is it a good video or a poor one? In my opinion it is a terrible one. It is not honest about pron and does not deal with the matter appropriately.

The video is not dealing with porn. The video is dealing with young children being exposed to porn. Do I agree that the video vilified porn? Yes. Is that fair to porn? No. But it was for kids. Christian kids at that.

People come up with all sorts of explanations for things that are not age appropriate for children. Blaming porn in this instance seemed to substitute for shaming the child. I feel like porn can take that punch.

The video encouraged speaking with parents. The video did not portrayed sexuality as dirty or shameful. I think it is a step in the right direction. Could it have improved? Yes. But I really struggle to see why people have that much of an issue with it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Just definitions - it may not be recognised by some as an addiction, but if you can't give it up then basically it is an addiction."



Because it is essentially this, for many at least - the heavy users, for example - where it is often just a displacement activity or a means to escape from reality - which is that their actual sexual life (involving others) is entirely barren. Ask any who do daily view porn in larger amounts, legal or illegal, as to whether they consider it an addiction. And while doing so, ask if they their viewing habit has moved on to more extreme forms.

Once again, why? You gave no real reasons. Merely your opinions. If somebody is alone and they use porn for release what are they supposed to use instead?

Not sure whether we have any figures on this but I believe it is cited in some of the links I gave. I must admit, I have not been looking at this area for some time, hence my only scraping a few examples together.

So nothing then. You are also ignoring the questions.

Not sure how old you are but I would differ here. Referring to the following link, I would guess that anal was not exactly that popular many decades ago, or even now for females it appears since it seems to figure in their fantasies a lot less than for males. And where might this have come from? The obvious change has been the amount of porn available and the popularity of this in porn. Hardly likely to be another reason.

Scientists Have Discovered How Common Different Sexual Fantasies Are

I am old enough. And even when I was younger the concept existed. It might be more popular now, though I seriously do not know too many girls that do it that way. And what is wrong with that anyway? If both members of a couple find something new that they both enjoy isn't that a good thing?

I haven't any stats on labiaplasty but apparently it has increased over the last decade or so. It seems to be becoming more popular, and which seems to be inspired by the porn industry. And of course we have the removal of all pubic hair, which we know has occurred in the past, but as it seems to be de rigour for almost all porn stars these days, one might assign an influence here too.

So again nothing and you can't admit an obvious failure. Once again, one out of a thousand doubling to two out of a thousand is an amazing increase, but it is still insignificant.

I didn't say that porn was inherently bad, or that it might actually solve some issues, but I do think that overall it has been a disaster - which is what humans tend to do all the time. We allow things to develop with hardly any sense of possible futures and then try to pick up the pieces later. Like me to cite a few? Like the plastic in our oceans contaminating and destroying marine life; the space junk that might be threatening the ability to use space effectively; and now porn, which is becoming increasingly difficult to control.

Really? Overall I would say that it has been a net benefit. Now you are merely grasping at straws. It can and has improved the sex life of countless people. I remember sex ed from high school aeons ago. It answered very few questions. Porn answers the questions that many parents can't. Now it is a parents duty to inform their children that porn is make believe. That one can't treat the stories as being true. Women will not take advantage of you if you deliver a pizza to their house. Women will not be as hot and ready (generally) as women in porn. It may go against your morals but at least kids know what goes where. A parent should be a moderating effect on reality. And of course there is a negative correlation between how much porn there is and how much rape there is. More pron, less rape. All you have are examples that should be corrected by a parent as part of a child's upbringing.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh no, I remember. Trying to get you to acknowledge that it is common sense that Porn is not harmless to young children was like pulling teeth.

Thanks for admitting that you are wrong. "Common sense" is a term that one uses when one can't make his case. And I have dealt with the supposed harm. You did not like the answer so you ignored it.

The video is not dealing with porn. The video is dealing with young children being exposed to porn. Do I agree that the video vilified porn? Yes. Is that fair to porn? No. But it was for kids. Christian kids at that.

Wow, amazing dishonesty. But at least you admit one thing. Even though it has a disclaimer it was meant for kids. And since it is such a terrible video that does more harm than good it is close to being child abuse. By the way, the myths that a kid may or may not follow has very little to do with the conversation.

People come up with all sorts of explanations for things that are not age appropriate for children. Blaming porn in this instance seemed to substitute for shaming the child. I feel like porn can take that punch.

That does not solve the problem, nor is it really the right thing to attack.

The video encouraged speaking with parents. The video did not portrayed sexuality as dirty or shameful. I think it is a step in the right direction. Could it have improved? Yes. But I really struggle to see why people have that much of an issue with it.

Yes, but it also had pure idiocy in it. I don't want to have to watch it again to pick out quotes. But putting a blanket false claim of "porn is bad" does no one any good at all. Porn exists, and the kid will watch it later in his life regardless of his beliefs. A parent should explain how porn is unrealistic. That would be helpful. Simply stating that it is bad and that one should not watch it does no good whatsoever.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is not that one-sided, since there are plenty who do see problems. It's just that some seem able to ignore all this.

No, there are plenty that believe there is a problem, but when pressed cannot support their claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How many times must you be told your opinion is not refutation of a scientific study. Please cite some counter evidence, an article, anything that supports your claim.

It was not even a "scientific study" by their own admission. If anything it was a meta-study. In other words it was a study about other studies and they did not really support your beliefs very well at all. I already explained how your article failed. Why do you have such a hard time understanding that?

The study admitted that not nearly enough research had been done. When you find something with some support we can discuss that.

 

[Curious George]

Thanks for admitting that you are wrong. "Common sense" is a term that one uses when one can't make his case. And I have dealt with the supposed harm. You did not like the answer so you ignored it.

You cannot seriously believe porn is harmless or at least does not correlate to harm in young children. You have dealt with nothing regarding this claim. You made some weird comment regarding adult porn usage. That is not the same.

Wow, amazing dishonesty. But at least you admit one thing. Even though it has a disclaimer it was meant for kids. And since it is such a terrible video that does more harm than good it is close to being child abuse. By the way, the myths that a kid may or may not follow has very little to do with the conversation.

Absolutely it was designed for kids. The disclaimer, which is part of the video, simply says it is not for group instruction.

No, definitely not child abuse. But you know what is? Having young kids watch porn. Why? Because that ain't good for them man! One might even say it is potentially harmful.

That does not solve the problem, nor is it really the right thing to attack.

No, it is probably not the right thing to attack. But suggesting porn is taking advantage of how your mind works for capitalistic exploitation isn't the worst lie.

Yes, but it also had pure idiocy in it. I don't want to have to watch it again to pick out quotes. But putting a blanket false claim of "porn is bad" does no one any good at all. Porn exists, and the kid will watch it later in his life regardless of his beliefs.

And that is fine. We also teach kids about bad touch when later in life we no longer call it bad. How could someone ever sort it out!

A parent should explain how porn is unrealistic. That would be helpful. Simply stating that it is bad and that one should not watch it does no good whatsoever.

That sounds like a discussion that would be age appropriate for an adolescent. I get that you would handle it differently. That is ok. But nothing in this video is not age appropriate. I did watch it again. And despite the overt attempts that the film made to avoid shaming the child, one could conclude that the use of the word "bad" as used in "bad pictures" and the phrase "pornography hurts families" is potentially shaming.

The first can lead a child to think they are bad for looking at bad pictures. The second can lead a kid to think they are "hurting their family" by exploring their curiosity.

That said, they blame porn and not the child giving rise to the conclusion that it is natural to be drawn to this subject matter. They even expressly say that "just because you have seen pornography were curious or interested does not make you a bad person" Moreover, they use children that are the target audiences age or slightly older in order to deliver the message from a peer perspective of other kids who have seen or looked at porn.

So beyond, you would do it differently, do you have any criticisms that speak to the content. What harm do you see coming from this video?

 

[Curious George]

No, there are plenty that believe there is a problem, but when pressed cannot support their claims.

"Research shows that there are harms associated with early exposure to pornography, but appropriate sex and relationships education can help."

Can't back up what? It is a problem. Dealing with that problem doesn't include getting rid of porn, don't worry. But it is a problem especially given our society.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You cannot seriously believe porn is harmless or at least does not correlate to harm in young children. You have dealt with nothing regarding this claim. You made some weird comment regarding adult porn usage. That is not the same.

Actually I have pointed out that there has been no substantial harm and any harm there is is due a parent's improper dealing with porn.

Absolutely it was designed for kids. The disclaimer, which is part of the video, simply says it is not for group instruction.

Enoch does not seem to agree with you on this matter.

No, definitely not child abuse. But you know what is? Having young kids watch porn. Why? Because that ain't good for them man! One might even say it is potentially harmful.

Back to your unsubstantiated claim. Since my claim has just as much substantiation it appears we are on equal ground. In fact I could use the one source that you used to back up my claims. By the way, you really need to quit using strawman arguments. You did so again here. Do you see it? It is your third sentence.

No, it is probably not the right thing to attack. But suggesting porn is taking advantage of how your mind works for capitalistic exploitation isn't the worst lie.

Oh no doubt porn takes advantage of how your mind works to make a profit, but then so does Krispy Kreme Doughnuts. Mmm . . . donuts! If a parent explained that that would not be a bad thing. But that is not what the video advocated.

And that is fine. We also teach kids about bad touch when later in life we no longer call it bad. How could someone ever sort it out!

Actually "bad touch" works at any age. Bad touch is inappropriate touching from anyone. Kids do not like to be abused. Adults don't like to be abused. But kids are serious about sex. Teaching them about sex is much better than simply calling it bad.

That sounds like a discussion that would be age appropriate for an adolescent. I get that you would handle it differently. That is ok. But nothing in this video is not age appropriate. I did watch it again. And despite the overt attempts that the film made to avoid shaming the child, one could conclude that the use of the word "bad" as used in "bad pictures" and the phrase "pornography hurts families" is potentially shaming.

So you do see some of the flaws in the video. And with the approach in the video they could not help but to shame the kid. Nor do they advocate actual education. The kids used in that video were young but not too young to begin to be given answers to their questions about sex.

The first can lead a child to think they are bad for looking at bad pictures. The second can lead a kid to think they are "hurting their family" by exploring their curiosity.

That said, they blame porn and not the child giving rise to the conclusion that it is natural to be drawn to this subject matter. They even expressly say that "just because you have seen pornography were curious or interested does not make you a bad person" Moreover, they use children that are the target audiences age or slightly older in order to deliver the message from a peer perspective of other kids who have seen or looked at porn.

So beyond, you would do it differently, do you have any criticisms that speak to the content. What harm do you see coming from this video?

I see that this video does make it too easy to blame the child. That a child will feel guilty for something that it is natural to be curious about. Honest answers is always the best policy. False blame does no one any good.