praying to...

[waitasec]

To talk to him as a child would to its parents. Your father knew you wanted the car keys for Saturday night, not because he is omniscient, but because he knows you. Yet you still asked him. Is he going to just toss you the keys and say "have fun and be careful"? No, it's his job to give you what you need, not what you want, without asking. Need? No need to ask. Want? Yes, ask. Maybe you'll get it, maybe you won't.

or life gives you what it gives you and it's up to you to either roll with the punches or have a temper tantrum

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, that too.

 

[confused453]

How do you know that you're not lying to yourself, and pretending to be happy when once in a while the thing you're praying for comes true, in reality purely by coincidence?

 

[Jainarayan]

Even if that were the case, what harm is there?

However, it still raises the question... how do you know it was not God; can you prove it was not God?

 

[Straw Dog]

Do you think it makes more sense to pray to the universe, the sun, the earth, nature, or even cosmic microwave background radiation (the oldest light in the universe) than to some imaginary deity?

I guess it depends on the type of prayer. A prayer of supplication involves petitioning for something in particular, whether it be spiritual or material gains, so it doesn't seem appropriate to ask impersonal forces.

I'm not really sure how appropriate it would be to ask a deity either if one believes that the God's plan for the Universe is already absolute and going to occur regardless of one's petitions for change. How can you have faith in God's Divine Plan while also asking her to change it?

There's also the prayer of thankfulness, in which one simply wishes to express their deepest reverence and gratitude. I suppose this one can still make sense even if directed at the Universe since it isn't seeking anything in return. It's just a means of expressing a sentiment with the benefit already contained within the act itself.

 

[confused453]

Even if that were the case, what harm is there?

The harm of delusion. Type of thinking, like, "who cares if we pollute the planet, God will fix it, or the earth is a temporary place anyway, for us humans, so messing it up is not a big deal".

However, it still raises the question... how do you know it was not God; can you prove it was not God?

How do you know it was God? Just think, how many mistakes have you done in your life, thinking the intent of the action was for good? How do you know that God and religion is not one of those mistakes?

 

[Jainarayan]

OK, this is going nowhere; your arguments are becoming silly(ier) and melodramatic. I'm taking the fish hook out of my mouth now.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

How do you define consciousness? How can you prove that the universe itself is not conscious and is not (part of) God (I'm a panentheist)?

For one it shows no signs of consciousness, and two it has no source to create consciousness for it.

I never claimed it wasn't part of God, but by the definition of a universe, it is everything in existence, and if it's only a part of God, then God simply does not exist otherwise this isn't the universe.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Maybe just to try couple of times and see if it works. If there're no results, then it is totally not sensible to ask for something, from something that doesn't have consciousness.

On the other hand, I don't think we fully understand the consciousness thing yet.

If it answers at all of your prayers it is conscious. So it would be pointless to ask the universe for something.

 

[Jainarayan]

For one it shows no signs of consciousness, and two it has no source to create consciousness for it.

Not that we can discern. We can't see beyond visible light of the electro-magnetic spectrum with our senses. If the tools were never developed, we'd never know there were other forms of em radiation. Do we have the tools or senses to discern cosmic consciousness? Maybe we do, and some people are more attuned to it than others.

 

[painted wolf]

It doesn't matter if God exists or not. If he does exist, God is all knowing, so he already knows what you need now, or what you will need in the future. So what's the point of praying? If God doesn't exist, again, praying doesn't accomplish much.

Why would god have to be all knowing?

wa:do

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Not that we can discern. We can't see beyond visible light of the electro-magnetic spectrum with our senses.

Why does it mater if we can't see beyond visible light, I've never saw a sign in nature that would have made me assumed this rock we're on is conscious, why should I assume the other billions are?

If the tools were never developed, we'd never know there were other forms of em radiation. Do we have the tools or senses to discern cosmic consciousness? Maybe we do, and some people are more attuned to it than others.

But what relevance does Electromagnetic Radiation have with consciousness?

 

[Jainarayan]

Why does it mater if we can't see beyond visible light, I've never saw a sign in nature that would have made me assumed this rock we're on is conscious, why should I assume the other billions are?



But what relevance does Electromagnetic Radiation have with consciousness?

Because we can't say for certain it is not conscious; you said the universe is not conscious. I asked how you can know that. If we can't perceive the full em spectrum (as an example), how can we know all there is to know of the universe and its properties, including possible sentience and consciousness? We don't have the sense to know one way or the other. That's why one takes on one's faith and one's feelings that God exists.

By the way, I don't know who that is in your avi, but he's getting my awareness of my spectrum to increase.

 

[Richard81]

If you want something to happen, do something to make it happen. No need to pray.

 

[Katzpur]

If you want something to happen, do something to make it happen. No need to pray.

Wow... If only that were always possible.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Because we can't say for certain it is not conscious; you said the universe is not conscious. I asked how you can know that.

Because we've never seen any actions that depict it to be conscious, and there's no source for it to have consciousness, no brain or any biological structure.

If we can't perceive the full em spectrum (as an example), how can we know all there is to know of the universe and its properties, including possible sentience and consciousness?

The same way you can tell a person's gender, or what material it's made of, etc. We compare it to other conscious things. Sure we can't perceive the full Electromagnetic Spectrum, but it doesn't stop us from knowing that there is no brain or anything to make it see, taste, feel, hear, or smell. Etc. There's completely nothing relevant to consciousness in what consists of it.

By the way, I don't know who that is in your avi, but he's getting my awareness of my spectrum to increase.

He's the new villain in Dark Knight Rises.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

If you want something to happen, do something to make it happen. No need to pray.

That too

 

[Richard81]

Wow... If only that were always possible.

Well, people who try their best to make things happen, instead of just wishing for them to, tend to have more success.

 

[Jainarayan]

Because we've never seen any actions that depict it to be conscious, and there's no source for it to have consciousness, no brain or any biological structure.

That still does not mean it doesn't exist. Are we sure it's not a biological structure? Does it have to be? We don't even know how the brain causes consciousness. Where does consciousness go after death? What is consciousness? We're using our limited frame of reference and ascribing what we think we know of reality.

"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine".

"Ther are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

 

[Katzpur]

Well, people who try their best to make things happen, instead of just wishing for them to, tend to have more success.

I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from doing his best to make things happen, and I don't think God would either. I suspect that most people who pray for God's help in accomplishing something are already doing what they can to make it happen.