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Pre-Big Bang

metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
ben d said:
...existence is God, God is all that exists, ie., God is Existence.. The word God is a concept that represents the reality of Existence. The word Existence is also a concept that represents the reality of God,
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But how could anyone actually know this? IMO, it's all fine & dandy as a hypothesis, but that's about as far as one could logically go.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ben d said:
If you have not had a subjective spiritual experience, it is not possible for you to know if it is real. Of course you can believe, disbelieve, or be agnostic about such a claim but you can not know. That is your position, accept it.
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No, sorry dude. It does not work that way. And one cannot know if something is true from a subjective experience. One can believe anything from that sort of event. You just conceded the argument.

You may have had an experience. The problem is that so have many others. And most of their events will be different from yours. How do you determine who, if anyone is right?
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
metis said:
But how could anyone actually know this? IMO, it's all fine & dandy as a hypothesis, but that's about as far as one could logically go.
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Because of logic if not from divine awareness, if anything existed that was not of/from God, then God is not omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent. Consider, where would this separate existence exist in relation to the one we exist in?
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
No, sorry dude. It does not work that way. And one cannot know if something is true from a subjective experience. One can believe anything from that sort of event. You just conceded the argument.

You may have had an experience. The problem is that so have many others. And most of their events will be different from yours. How do you determine who, if anyone is right?
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Someone who has not yet had a spiritual experience can not know what a spiritual experience is, nor can you prove or disprove that such an experience exists. Just accept that you, SZ, have not yet had a spiritual experience, and let the leaders of human evolution unfold its future.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ben d said:
Someone who has not yet had a spiritual experience can not know what a spiritual experience is, nor can you prove or disprove that such an experience exists. Just accept that you, SZ, have not yet had a spiritual experience, and let the leaders of human evolution unfold its future.
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What makes you think that an atheist cannot have a spiritual experience? The sources of them are probably natural and not from a god of some sort since people from all sorts of religions and even those that are not religious can experience them. As a result they should not be convincing. They appear to be very poor evidence for you faith.
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
What makes you think that an atheist cannot have a spiritual experience? The sources of them are probably natural and not from a god of some sort since people from all sorts of religions and even those that are not religious can experience them. As a result they should not be convincing. They appear to be very poor evidence for you faith.
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For God's sake, God is nature! Ok fine, you say atheists may have spiritual experiences, but my post was addressed to you, SZ, so spill it, have you had a spiritual experience or no?
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
That is only your opinion. How would you prove it?
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I take that as a no, you, SZ, have not had a spiritual experience. So then, it follows logically that you are not aware of what a spiritual experience is, so you can't possibly be in a position to say if they are real or not, nor could you prove they are real or not.

And btw, do you seriously believe it may be possible for an atheist to have a spiritual experience?
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ben d said:
I take that as a no, you, SZ, have not had a spiritual experience. So then, it follows logically that you are not aware of what a spiritual experience is, so you can't possibly be in a position to say if they are real or not, nor could you prove they are real or not.

And btw, do you seriously believe it may be possible for an atheist to have a spiritual experience?
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No, that does not mean that I have not had one. In fact if I didn't have one, then you didn't haave one.
 
Ben Dhyan

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
No, that does not mean that I have not had one. In fact if I didn't have one, then you didn't haave one.
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Duh! That's about your standard of judgement SZ, if you didn't have one, then I didn't. Btw, out of curiosity, has anyone ever accused you of narcissism? :rolleyes:

But wait, what about atheists you say who may be capable of having spiritual experiences, if an atheist can have one, then why haven't you?
 
R

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
And without some sort of evidence or rational reasoning those are just empty claims. Far more likely to be false than to be true.

That is what you believe. It does not appear to be what you know.;
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To know..is not to theorise.

Reasoned...
Material substances pre exist that no human created.

In each form are held and cold.

Men invent machines. If you didn't have substance you'd own no science either. No machine.

By you standing upon substances. You stand upon atop a natural machine.

He'd then say you're crazy...no you are you built it up from where I stood on it.

Pretty basic advice.

Light we know is consuming fuel. Isn't creating it's destroying.

So mind says it's why I know what was first was not burning. It wasn't alight.

I know I don't come from burning.

Science says of course you thinker human are correct as a monkey proves that fact.

Living.
Procreating by sex.
Lives in a water oxygenated heavens.
Doesn't own dominion life human.
Is closest living type to us.
No preceding values in bodies is before that monkey.

In an exact water oxygenated heavens that isn't anywhere near burning states that science practice and uses as it's beginnings to practice science. Light.

Talking about science isn't practicing science.

Why talking gets life destroyed when it's practiced.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ben d said:
Duh! That's about your standard of judgement SZ, if you didn't have one, then I didn't. Btw, out of curiosity, has anyone ever accused you of narcissism? :rolleyes:

But wait, what about atheists you say who may be capable of having spiritual experiences, if an atheist can have one, then why haven't you?
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No, you are guilty of that. You are too ready to claim that others did not have a spiritual experience. Did you know that some people can have such an experience and still reason logically after the fact? You seem to believe that a spiritual experience is evidence. It really is not. It is just an event and if it cannot be reliably repeated it is only an "I don't know what happened here" event.

You were the narcissist here when you tried to claim that atheists and other non-believers never had a spiritual experience.

Do you understand how your false accusation failed as an argument now?
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
ben d said:
Because of logic if not from divine awareness, if anything existed that was not of/from God, then God is not omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent. Consider, where would this separate existence exist in relation to the one we exist in?
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Again, where did God come from if there had to supposedly be a cause?

Basically, you've made an assumption that I am unwilling to make because we have 0 evidence of causation of the BB.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
..By the way there is more evidence that the Cosmos has always existed than your god has always existed. Why is that?
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I don't think so..

While from the 1940s to the 1960s the astrophysical community was equally divided between supporters of the Big Bang theory and supporters of the steady-state theory, it is now rejected by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers, as the observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict.
Steady-state model - Wikipedia
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
muhammad_isa said:
I don't think so..

While from the 1940s to the 1960s the astrophysical community was equally divided between supporters of the Big Bang theory and supporters of the steady-state theory, it is now rejected by the vast majority of cosmologists, astrophysicists and astronomers, as the observational evidence points to a hot Big Bang cosmology with a finite age of the universe, which the steady-state model does not predict.
Steady-state model - Wikipedia
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That may be only the start of our universe, and most of those that accept that the Big Bang started everything also believe that time started at that point So they too believe that the universe existed forever.
 
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