Premarital Sex vs. Homosexuality

[Misty]

But then they won't be Christians, will they.

They think there are the only 'true' Christians!

 

[kejos]

They think there are the only 'true' Christians!

No, they say they are the only true Christians!

 

[Dezzie]

I think that homosexuality, in some cases, is an existential thing in its cause- it's an objection to creation, to existence itself, particularly one's own creation; and perversion, or inversion, of everything, as far as possible, is what ensues from this attitude. Homosexuality is the most obvious 'inversion'. This decision may take place early enough in life to go unremembered, even in the womb. The event may occur later in life, but be suppressed in the memory. Whenever it occurs, the subject may honestly believe that he/she was born homosexual. Others may recall their decision, but say that their behavior is innate.

And this may be all incorrect.

Well... Im not going to tell you that you are wrong cause who's to say really... Anything in this world is possible. You very well could be right... but you could also be wrong. Maybe people really are "born" homosexual. Maybe God is putting them on this Earth to prove to the rest of us that you can love anyone in this world? Black or white, male or female... Maybe God really doesn't care and he is sick of the classifications in this world. Who's to know... God very well could have put them here to open our eyeballs...

 

[kejos]

Well... Im not going to tell you that you are wrong cause who's to say really... Anything in this world is possible. You very well could be right... but you could also be wrong. Maybe people really are "born" homosexual. Maybe God is putting them on this Earth to prove to the rest of us that you can love anyone in this world?

Why would he think that homosexuals need particular love from heterosexuals if homosexuality is normal?

Homosexuals are not regarded as Christians, but they are loved by Christians every bit as much as heterosexuals, because Christians love everyone, no matter what they have done, or will do.

 

[Nerthus]

Homosexuals are not regarded as Christians

This could be one of the craziest, most ridiculous things I have ever heard!

 

[kejos]

This could be one of the craziest, most ridiculous things I have ever heard!

Odd that you've only just noticed it.

 

[Nerthus]

Odd that you've only just noticed it.

No one has ever said to me before that a certain group of people aren't regarded as Christians. I'm sure that's just what Jesus came to do; only choose certain people to be called Christian

 

[kejos]

No one has ever said to me before that a certain group of people aren't regarded as Christians.

No-one said to you now. But it has been seen in print for centuries!

 

[Duck]

Is it agreed, then, that the 'True Scotsman' gambit is nonsensical, and that Christians are known by their kind, peaceable, forgiving, self-controlled behavior, against which there is no law?

Capable of answering the actual question much?

Yes, I totally know christians by their love. The love that comes with a baseball bat, the love that comes with calls for my death, the love that proclaims my wanting to inherit my love's property without excessive taxation as a more grave threat to humanity than environmental destruction, the love that calls for my imprisonment, the love that calls me a worse threat to America than terrorism, the love that calls me a pervert, that hopes I get Aids and die, the love that proclaims (as YOU did) that I can't actually be a member of their church or loved by their "god IS love" deity at all, the love that throws children out on the street, the love that subjects people to electroshock "therapy", the love that performs "corrective" rape. Yes, I know christians and their love, I see it in the news every day.

So, to repeat the question from before: Could you point out the verses spoken by Jesus, quoted in your bible, that condemn any of the people you mentioned as being condemned in the post I originally replied to? Or are you going to dodge the question again?

And don't give me that crap about scotsman and how the people that do these things to gays aren't really christians, because well, if they call themselves christians, and attend christian churches, and I hear these things consistently from christians and their priests, it kind of makes me think that the folks NOT calling for my death are the ones that aren't christians.

 

[Dezzie]

Why would he think that homosexuals need particular love from heterosexuals if homosexuality is normal?

Homosexuals are not regarded as Christians, but they are loved by Christians every bit as much as heterosexuals, because Christians love everyone, no matter what they have done, or will do.

I never said that Christians don't love homosexuals, silly. Well technically... there are some Christians that are so ignorant that they don't even associate with homosexuals. Or, am I wrong?

Also... could you re-phrase your first question? Sorry... I'm just having a hard time understanding what you're asking.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If what is hoped to be understood is that Christians make more fuss about homosexuality than they do about fornication or adultery, that homosexuals are somehow picked on- it seems to me that homosexuals are fantasising.

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that bars adulterers from re-marrying after a divorce.

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that bars promiscuous people from marrying at all.

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that makes it illegal for obese people to eat at buffets.

.

.

.

I could go on. But I hope you get my point. GLBTQs aren't making this **** up. We're fighting for equal rights.

It is homosexuals who bring up homosexuality, time and time again, in places such as this, usually propagating some fallacy at the expense of others; who go on marches and disport their bodies for TV cameras, etc.- when most people are really not all that interested in them, it seems to me.

It is heterosexuals who flaunt their sexuality on television, who post their engagement and wedding pictures in the newspaper, who talk freely about who they're dating, who they marry, who they had children with. Homosexuals only wish to freely talk about our love lifes too without being told we're "shoving it in your faces."

Please.

I see bumper stickers that blare the message, "MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN," and I don't see people like you suggesting that maybe that's shoving it in our faces.

The fact is that Christians have zero tolerance, among themselves, for any sexual relationship other than heterosexual marriage. What non-Christians do is their business. And might it be an idea if homosexuals started to mind their own business? Do they not protest too much?

Honestly, I don't care what Christians believe or what they frown upon. Speak your mind. I've been called all the names in the book in whispers and loudly. I got a thick skin. Just don't be surprised if I use the same freedom of speech to say something back to you.

But what I will protest is when bigotry is being voted into law. The minute somebody decides that I am considered "separate but equal", I consider them to be fighting words. And honey, I will not back down.

It is quite true that the Bible refers to homosexuality as unnatural, and that irregular heterosexual relationships are at least natural- but then the ordinary man in the street said the very same way for centuries, until the PC conformity police stepped in a few decades ago. And imv, the ordinary man in the street often thinks the very same way, but does not say so. So there is nothing that can be done about that, and if homosexuals find the Bible irritating, they should consider that they possibly would not do so if they were not of the opinion that the Bible is actually the revelation of God. But Christians are interested in only one thing, as far as outsiders are concerned- conversion of those whom God has chosen, whether heterosexual or homosexual, black, white, young, old, rich, poor, respectable, criminal, whatever. Each person is a potential saint, and nobody is hated or despised.

I do not subscribe to your tenets. I have found peace of mind in my religion.

As far as your accusation that homosexuals only find the Bible irritating because it might be true, how about I start pointing to Buddhist doctrine on attachment and aversion and suggest how Christians are only digging their holes deeper and deeper? And I say that over.....and over......and over.....and over again? And that there are billboards everywhere that carry that message about Buddhism? And that dozens of television stations around the country carry that message about Buddhism and it's views on non-Buddhists? And that radio stations everywhere carry that message 24/7?

I get irritated, but only because it's tiring to see this country saturated with Jesus.

It's no excuse to say that fundies in the USA pester homosexuals- they are not the responsibility of Christians....

Au contrare. I do believe fundies are the responsibility of fellow Christians. If they weren't, then why do I hear so many people corner Muslims who don't continually "denounce" or "condemn" the actions of terrorists? Speak up against fundamentalists as much as you would expect a moderate Muslim to speak up against terrorists.

......and Americans who suffer fundies need to take serious stock of their position with respect to this unique phenomenon. They live, for the most part, in far greater comfort, more cheaply, than others in the world, and their prosperity is in large part due to the Protestant work ethic, individualism and spirit of enquiry, either home-grown or imported. In the USA, Calvinism gave rise to Mammon, and Calvinism has to live, somehow, with Mammon, so my advice is, take the rough with the smooth, and be grateful. It is one thing to 'burn' with lust for another person- but just try living on a bowl of rice a day, or even one good meal a day, and loins-centered thoughts might well drift into insignificance.

A lot of us in this country do live on a bowl of rice a day. Ask me about my profession someday. I can give you an earful about work ethic, living in poverty, all while offering meaning and beauty to the populace.

Or, try emigrating.

Screw that. I love my country, and I don't want to see it fall into the hands of extremists.

But don't whinge to Christians, because they won't budge an inch, and you'll only harm your case.

Darlin', I don't whine. I lay down the gauntlet if someone steps on my toes.

 

[kejos]

I never said that Christians don't love homosexuals, silly.

Indeed, but there are those who say otherwise who may read this.

Well technically... there are some Christians that are so ignorant that they don't even associate with homosexuals. Or, am I wrong?

It depends what is meant by 'associate with'. Christians can certainly meet and socialise with homosexuals, and become friends, if homosexuals want that. What Christians can't do, and this will not be welcome to many who call themselves Christians, is allow their association to be interpreted as acceptance of homosexuality itself. The homosexual is valuable in God's sight, but the homosexuality is in the way of association as it exists between fellow Christians. But then so would drunkenness, drug-taking, beating one's spouse, and other things, so there's no special exception made here.

Also... could you re-phrase your first question? Sorry... I'm just having a hard time understanding what you're asking.

Don't worry.

 

[Duck]

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that bars adulterers from re-marrying after a divorce.

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that bars promiscuous people from marrying at all.

Name me one bill that the U.S. government has recently tried to pass that makes it illegal for obese people to eat at buffets.

.

.

.

I could go on. But I hope you get my point. GLBTQs aren't making this **** up. We're fighting for equal rights.



It is heterosexuals who flaunt their sexuality on television, who post their engagement and wedding pictures in the newspaper, who talk freely about who they're dating, who they marry, who they had children with. Homosexuals only wish to freely talk about our love lifes too without being told we're "shoving it in your faces."

Please.

I see bumper stickers that blare the message, "MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN," and I don't see people like you suggesting that maybe that's shoving it in our faces.



Honestly, I don't care what Christians believe or what they frown upon. Speak your mind. I've been called all the names in the book in whispers and loudly. I got a thick skin. Just don't be surprised if I use the same freedom of speech to say something back to you.

But what I will protest is when bigotry is being voted into law. The minute somebody decides that I am considered "separate but equal", I consider them to be fighting words. And honey, I will not back down.



I do not subscribe to your tenets. I have found peace of mind in my religion.

As far as your accusation that homosexuals only find the Bible irritating because it might be true, how about I start pointing to Buddhist doctrine on attachment and aversion and suggest how Christians are only digging their holes deeper and deeper? And I say that over.....and over......and over.....and over again? And that there are billboards everywhere that carry that message about Buddhism? And that dozens of television stations around the country carry that message about Buddhism and it's views on non-Buddhists? And that radio stations everywhere carry that message 24/7?

I get irritated, but only because it's tiring to see this country saturated with Jesus.



Au contrare. I do believe fundies are the responsibility of fellow Christians. If they weren't, then why do I hear so many people corner Muslims who don't continually "denounce" or "condemn" the actions of terrorists? Speak up against fundamentalists as much as you would expect a moderate Muslim to speak up against terrorists.



A lot of us in this country do live on a bowl of rice a day. Ask me about my profession someday. I can give you an earful about work ethic, living in poverty, all while offering meaning and beauty to the populace.



Screw that. I love my country, and I don't want to see it fall into the hands of extremists.



Darlin', I don't whine. I lay down the gauntlet if someone steps on my toes.

Well said Mystic! I wouldn't hold my breath expecting to get an answer or reply regarding this post though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well said Mystic! I wouldn't hold my breath expecting to get an answer or reply regarding this post though.

Thank you.

I do expect a reply, however.

 

[kejos]

Capable of answering the actual question much?

What's the point of telling people Jesus' views as those representing Christianity if they don't accept them as representing Christianity?

No ducking.

Yes, I totally know christians by their love. The love that comes with a baseball bat

:sleep: Nitey nite.

 

[Dezzie]

Yes, I totally know christians by their love. The love that comes with a baseball bat, the love that comes with calls for my death, the love that proclaims my wanting to inherit my love's property without excessive taxation as a more grave threat to humanity than environmental destruction, the love that calls for my imprisonment, the love that calls me a worse threat to America than terrorism, the love that calls me a pervert, that hopes I get Aids and die, the love that proclaims (as YOU did) that I can't actually be a member of their church or loved by their "god IS love" deity at all, the love that throws children out on the street, the love that subjects people to electroshock "therapy", the love that performs "corrective" rape. Yes, I know christians and their love, I see it in the news every day.

Wow... Thank you for posting this... One thing I want to comment on though is this... Not all Christians are whilling to call any homosexual out like that, nor give anyone a death wish. Not every one in the world is bad... evil... corrupt... a hypocrite... etc. Don't give your hopes up for people and the world. It seems to me like you have gotten a lot of horrible things... and I am so sorry for that. You don't deserve it. No one does... Like I said though... Don't think every one is that way.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Capable of answering the actual question much?

Yes, I totally know christians by their love. The love that comes with a baseball bat, the love that comes with calls for my death, the love that proclaims my wanting to inherit my love's property without excessive taxation as a more grave threat to humanity than environmental destruction, the love that calls for my imprisonment, the love that calls me a worse threat to America than terrorism, the love that calls me a pervert, that hopes I get Aids and die, the love that proclaims (as YOU did) that I can't actually be a member of their church or loved by their "god IS love" deity at all, the love that throws children out on the street, the love that subjects people to electroshock "therapy", the love that performs "corrective" rape. Yes, I know christians and their love, I see it in the news every day.

So, to repeat the question from before: Could you point out the verses spoken by Jesus, quoted in your bible, that condemn any of the people you mentioned as being condemned in the post I originally replied to? Or are you going to dodge the question again?

And don't give me that crap about scotsman and how the people that do these things to gays aren't really christians, because well, if they call themselves christians, and attend christian churches, and I hear these things consistently from christians and their priests, it kind of makes me think that the folks NOT calling for my death are the ones that aren't christians.

Let me give you this.

 

[Duck]

What's the point of telling people Jesus' views as those representing Christianity if they don't accept them as representing Christianity?

No ducking.


:sleep: Nitey nite.

You quoted Paul regarding a lot of things, like that whole romans thing regarding "natural use". And you use that to condemn homosexuals.

You said, "So taking people at their word in this matter is no sensible course of action. What did Jesus say is the sensible course? "You will know them by their fruits." Iow, the way people behave is what counts. It's their birth certificate. And what did Jesus say were bad fruits? Theft, violence, adultery, fornication, drunkenness, and sodomy."

I asked for verses quoting Jesus himself where Jesus condemns people for these things. You have yet to provide these things, instead completely dodging or ignoring the question. So, I take it that Jesus doesn't condemn people for these things, correct?

You further said, "So anyone who says that homosexuals can be Christians simply doesn't know what he's talking about. At best."

Since Jesus, doesn't condemn people for say...sodomy, then that leads me to think that indeed homosexuals can be christians, so could it be YOU that doesn't know what he's talking about. At best?

 

[Dezzie]

Indeed, but there are those who say otherwise who may read this.

Hold on... are you saying that I said that? I certainly hope not. I do not like assumptions... especially when they are completely false. I find that extremely insulting.

It depends what is meant by 'associate with'. Christians can certainly meet and socialise with homosexuals, and become friends, if homosexuals want that. What Christians can't do, and this will not be welcome to many who call themselves Christians, is allow their association to be interpreted as acceptance of homosexuality itself. The homosexual is valuable in God's sight, but the homosexuality is in the way of association as it exists between fellow Christians. But then so would drunkenness, drug-taking, beating one's spouse, and other things, so there's no special exception made here.

Ugh... I could go really in depth with this, but there would be no point. It would be an utter waste of my time.

 

[Duck]

Let me give you this.

Thanks! I can always use a big hug!

Just to clarify, I haven't actually had all of those things happen to me, that vent was an amalgamation of personal experience, experience of friends, and lots of news items. I don't want anyone to think that ALL of that has happened directly to me. Enough of it has been personal experience though.