Pro-choice and pro-life

[We Never Know]

In today's world we see...
-people who claim to be pro-life but avoid a vaccine that can save lives
And
-people who claim to be pro-choice but want forced vaccinations.

Isn't amazing how a virus can distort the views people hold?

 

[Meow Mix]

While I'm not on board with forced vaccinations, I am on board with proof of vaccinations (or medical exceptions) for in-person classes and things like events.

I don't think this is mutually exclusive with being pro-choice in the abortion debate because context matters. Whittling down complex philosophical and ethical positions to being called "pro-choice" and "pro-life" misses a lot of nuance. I think being pro-choice is being pro-life and pro-quality of life for instance. I think supporting the encouragement of vaccines is pro-life, and it's not anti-choice in that people can choose not to vaccinate; it just doesn't necessarily mean they can do things that will put everyone else in danger in exactly the same sense that we ban smoking indoors.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In today's world we see...
-people who claim to be pro-life but avoid a vaccine that can save lives
And
-people who claim to be pro-choice but want forced vaccinations.

Isn't amazing how a virus can distort the views people hold?

Nah. It's why pro-abortion and anti-abortion are better terms.

 

[We Never Know]

Nah. It's why pro-abortion and anti-abortion are better terms.

pro-life
/prōˈlīf/
adjective

1. opposing abortion and euthanasia

pro-choice
/prōˈCHois/
adjective

1. advocating legalized abortion.

I stick with what my post said.

 

[F1fan]

In today's world we see...
-people who claim to be pro-life but avoid a vaccine that can save lives
And
-people who claim to be pro-choice but want forced vaccinations.

Isn't amazing how a virus can distort the views people hold?

Two unrelated issues with different levels of consequences to the public at large.

What is amazing is how irrational some folks can be about how they want society to be. What is consistent about pro-lifers who are also anti-vaxxers is how they are opposed to any level of personal accountability. They don't want women to have the opportunity to take personal responsibility for their reproductive choices, and nor do they want the personal responsibility of working with society as a whole to vaccinate and defeat a deadly virus.

And few are demanding forced vaccinations, so that isn't an accurate assertion. There are some private businesses requiring it and the military, and they have good reason for this.

 

[F1fan]

pro-life
/prōˈlīf/
adjective

1. opposing abortion and euthanasia

pro-choice
/prōˈCHois/
adjective

1. advocating legalized abortion.

I stick with what my post said.

Ask pro-lifers about universal healthcare, and that will taint the label quickly.

 

[We Never Know]

Two unrelated issues with different levels of consequences to the public at large.

What is amazing is how irrational some folks can be about how they want society to be. What is consistent about pro-lifers who are also anti-vaxxers is how they are opposed to any level of personal accountability. They don't want women to have the opportunity to take personal responsibility for their reproductive choices, and nor do they want the personal responsibility of working with society as a whole to vaccinate and defeat a deadly virus.

And few are demanding forced vaccinations, so that isn't an accurate assertion. There are some private businesses requiring it and the military, and they have good reason for this.

I always try to post both sides, two sides, etc. What i see about you is you only post one sided no matter what.

 

[We Never Know]

Ask pro-lifers about universal healthcare, and that will taint the label quickly.

What about universal health care? Tell me your thoughts on it, pros and cons.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well as far as I know, the two positions are pro-choice and pro-compelled life. The right wing believes you are socially compelled toward certain behaviors and actions, usually (or always) because of metaphysical authority. Contrary to what they say, they do not really believe in the individual as much as the left does, though each side can go off the cliff with authoritarianism if corrupt

 

[F1fan]

I always try to post both sides, two sides, etc. What i see about your is you only post one sided no matter what.

One side is notoriously irrational, dogmatic, poses a public threat, is biased, is anti-reason, anti-science, anti-expert, corrupt, etc. If you are going to open discussions that pit one side of the political divide against the other it aint gonna be a fair, equal set of criticisms.

If you think I'm being unfair that challenge my views.

I suggest you open discussions asking people to state pros and cons of each side and see where that goes.

 

[We Never Know]

One side is notoriously irrational, dogmatic, poses a public threat, is biased, is anti-reason, anti-science, anti-expert, corrupt, etc. If you are going to open discussions that pit one side of the political divide against the other it aint gonna be a fair, equal set of criticisms.

If you think I'm being unfair that challenge my views.

I suggest you open discussions asking people to state pros and cons of each side and see where that goes.

Trump wasn't all bad, Biden isn't all good. I can admit that, you can't. Thats the difference.

 

[We Never Know]

One side is notoriously irrational, dogmatic, poses a public threat, is biased, is anti-reason, anti-science, anti-expert, corrupt, etc. If you are going to open discussions that pit one side of the political divide against the other it aint gonna be a fair, equal set of criticisms.

If you think I'm being unfair that challenge my views.

I suggest you open discussions asking people to state pros and cons of each side and see where that goes.

Plus I still want to know... What about universal health care? Tell me your thoughts on it, pros and cons.

 

[F1fan]

What about universal health care? Tell me your thoughts on it, pros and cons.

I happen to think healthcare should be available to all citizens. If the wealthy want premium care, well they can pay extra for that privilege. I see healthcare being a product for sale as a disaster to American society. Inevitably it ends up costing everyone more because the poor can't afford preventative care and end up in chronic conditions that end up costing more in care, and lost opportunity for citizens to work.

 

[We Never Know]

I happen to think healthcare should be available to all citizens. If the wealthy want premium care, well they can pay extra for that privilege. I see healthcare being a product for sale as a disaster to American society. Inevitably it ends up costing everyone more because the poor can't afford preventative care and end up in chronic conditions that end up costing more in care, and lost opportunity for citizens to work.

Ah! You think the rich, which some have worked all their life to achieve, should pay for the poor that don't want to work at all.
That explains a lot.

 

[sun rise]

There are so many assumptions and contradictions in the OP that untangling them is something else.

One example is that there's a false dichotomy involved. I'm pro-life AND pro-choice in the real sense of 'life' and 'choice' not the religious/political usage.

I believe the best way to address abortion is not by beating people with the law but doing things like: decent health care for all, making it easy for a woman to carry a baby to term and give that baby to those who long for one. It's offering women (and men) really great education so they have real economic choices including decent child care. But in the end since there is no consensus on when life begins outside of viability outside the womb, that should be the standard and a woman finally make the choice.

In terms of vaccinations: it is a fact that being vaccinated is pro-life. It protects the lives of others as well as one's own. Those who claim the right to refuse what helps all and work in professions where their decisions might end other's lives are people that should not work in any situation where they contact the public especially medical contact. Let them choose lives that keep them among others like themselves without contact on others. That too is pro-choice.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Ah! You think the rich, which some have worked all their life to achieve, should pay for the poor that don't want to work at all.
That explains a lot.

That's a bit of a simplification, what about trump's kids, or biden's kids, or some executive's. When trump's kid gives speeches, why take him serious

 

[We Never Know]

That's a bit of a simplification, what about trump's kids, or biden's kids, or some executive's. When trump's kid gives speeches, why take him serious

I see people holding signs on off ramps saying need food, need money while five business's in eye sight have "we are hiring signs". I actually asked one why don't you go over there and get a job. He "said it doesn't pay enough". I said it pays more than nothing and if you have time to stand here, you have time to work.

 

[F1fan]

Trump wasn't all bad, Biden isn't all good. I can admit that, you can't. Thats the difference.

Heck you can say Hitler wasn't all bad. He brought Germany out of a depression that was worse than America's, rebuilt the nation in three years into an industrial powerhouse, hosted the Olympics in 1936 with the first modern games that set the standard ever since, and was Time Magazine's Man of the Year in 1938. Stalin wasn't all bad, either. He brought Russia out of an archaic agrarian producer to becoming heavily industrialized and modern through the 30's. This helped Russia defeat Germany years later since they had the industrial capacity to produce tanks and other weapons. Of course you know the darker histories better.

If you want to smooth over the negatives it can be done. But we tend to look at what is most notable about leaders. trump was highly indifferent to the job, was incompetent, was highly corrupt, and did very little that actually helped the USA progress. His immigration policies were criminal. He actually had an easy time as president until he had to face emergencies in his last year, and he failed miserably at these challenges. There's a reason he's ranked among the worst in history. Biden is not perfect but he is experienced and has had a lot of things on his plate his first year. Trying to put the government back together, and having lost time in the transition put us back a lot. His first priority was the vaccine to defeat the pandemic. And then work to support the economy. And then work to get infrastructure investment while he has a congress to pass it. And then Afghanistan turning ugly fast, which was more of a military failure than on Biden. The right has really mobilized in the USA and they are sabotaging efforts by the democrats to get the nation vaccinated, protecting voting access, helping the economy, and now this anti-abortion nonsense which is likely due to the supreme court being so conservative thanks to the three justices that trump picked. Republicans did support an infrastructure bill that after the long list of natural disasters happening there is a serious need for rebuilding it. Republicans are resisting more investment, and that will only hurt the future of the USA because we have serious problems that will cost more in the long run due to responding to the emergencies, and the lost times the public will be suffering the outages and destruction.

 

[We Never Know]

Heck you can say Hitler wasn't all bad. He brought Germany out of a depression that was worse than America's, rebuilt the nation in three years into an industrial powerhouse, hosted the Olympics in 1936 with the first modern games that set the standard ever since, and was Time Magazine's Man of the Year in 1938. Stalin wasn't all bad, either. He brought Russia out of an archaic agrarian producer to becoming heavily industrialized and modern through the 30's. This helped Russia defeat Germany years later since they had the industrial capacity to produce tanks and other weapons. Of course you know the darker histories better.

If you want to smooth over the negatives it can be done. But we tend to look at what is most notable about leaders. trump was highly indifferent to the job, was incompetent, was highly corrupt, and did very little that actually helped the USA progress. His immigration policies were criminal. He actually had an easy time as president until he had to face emergencies in his last year, and he failed miserably at these challenges. There's a reason he's ranked among the worst in history. Biden is not perfect but he is experienced and has had a lot of things on his plate his first year. Trying to put the government back together, and having lost time in the transition put us back a lot. His first priority was the vaccine to defeat the pandemic. And then work to support the economy. And then work to get infrastructure investment while he has a congress to pass it. And then Afghanistan turning ugly fast, which was more of a military failure than on Biden. The right has really mobilized in the USA and they are sabotaging efforts by the democrats to get the nation vaccinated, protecting voting access, helping the economy, and now this anti-abortion nonsense which is likely due to the supreme court being so conservative thanks to the three justices that trump picked. Republicans did support an infrastructure bill that after the long list of natural disasters happening there is a serious need for rebuilding it. Republicans are resisting more investment, and that will only hurt the future of the USA because we have serious problems that will cost more in the long run due to responding to the emergencies, and the lost times the public will be suffering the outages and destruction.

Here's come the "what's about Hitler" arguement again.
Why not what about Stalin, or a god, or etc.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I see people holding signs on off ramps saying need food, need money while five business's in eye sight have "we are hiring signs". I actually asked one why don't you go over there and get a job. He "said it doesn't pay enough". I said it pays more than nothing and if you have time to stand here, you have time to work.

Have you thought a lot about what working while homeless means? You think they have clean clothes to even get hired, or they will get sufficient sleep, or a landlord will even lease to them?