Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One of my friends, when she was 7 months along, had major complications: over the course of a few hours, she went from what they thought was a normal pregnancy to needing an emergency C-section. If she hadn't been in a big city and close to a hospital, she probably would have died.

I would never fault any woman for not wanting to take on the risk of pregnancy.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The Roe vs Wade SCOTUS opinion is the most sound write up to this day. It strikes a middle ground between absolute positions that grants women self-agency while also granting a modicum of protection toward the growing fetus. It does so because it constitutionally introduces the term "fetal viability", in which a fetus can be medically determined to be able to survive outside the uterus, it then can be granted personhood. Before that point of viability (which is a range and not a hard-and-fast point in gestation), the fetus is not granted personhood and the woman's self-determination is granted legal priority.

As much as pro-life people are shocked at the idea of a woman "killing a baby", I'm just as disgusted and shocked that people are willing to coerce, force, and shame a woman to endure a pregnancy because they consider a blastocyst as more important than her health.

Pro-choice people can be just as indignant about the inhumanity of the other side's position.

You know, whenever I see you post, my heart beats hard :hearts:

Ehm...

Necessity is different, and the mother's health is important. I just hope some don't use it as an excuse to justify their desire for abortion. As far as I can see, we are talking about normal situations here. I don't see a problem in breaking some rules, only as sufficiently needed, if a necessity presents it self, and a real valid and honest one, not a justifying one.

Just to be on the safe side:

I do believe abortion is hands down wrong, but somehow I can't be harsh on some women for doing it. We are humans and have moments of weakness sometimes and do things out of semi-dominant emotions like fear.

Plus I repeat, valid and honest necessities have their own special treatments.

Exclusively pro-choice women are still people like me with feelings and I love for them what I love for myself, and don't wish them harm as I don't for myself. I only ask of them to be honest in making the choice and think about the innocent baby. A life that has no sin do be gone in an abortion.

majority of women who get abortions don't do it over health reasons. I've had WAY to many friends who got abortions due to other reasons I won't discuss here /thread. You must assume that those who are pro life are completely ok with abortions in certain Situations. If the mother could die? Yes! Was she raped and got pregnant? Yes! Uh dur...

Majority of abortions on the other hand. No.

+1

And I'd like to mention that my choice in the poll was "other" and I meant both life and choice, depending on the situation.

 

[Thruve]

You assume "health reasons" to be "more life threatening", or that the fetus is showing signs of an anamoly that is life threatening when born.

I'm including how pregnancy changes a woman's body....her blood pressure, her blood sugar levels, her hormones, her digestive system....it's a health issue that is all-consuming for her. This is why when a woman goes in to see an OB/GYN for pre-natal care, her vitals are taken and the entire process is focused primarily on her health with the development of the fetus as secondary in the evaluations.

Again, you're reducing pregnancy down to an "inconvenience" (which I've pointed out before as being a far far cry from the reality) and which is a tactic many pro-lifers offer when wanting to shame women from making their own decisions about their own bodies.

I've been pregnant twice. I have given birth twice. I've raised these kids to adulthood. I also was pro-life for many years before I realized how my rhetoric was hateful and shaming of women, and I quickly changed my perspective to be more compassionate.

If I was pro-choice back then? I'd have chosen to carry the pregnancies to term and to do what I've been doing. I support women who choose to carry to term. If it's what they want to do, all the power to them.

If a woman seriously does not want to go through 9 months of her health being overwhelmingly altered, go through labor and delivery, and have to make a decision to keep the newborn or to go through the process of giving the newborn up for adoption, all the power to her. It's her body.

I've lived on this planet for a while, and I know plenty of women who have had abortions. The majority of them are quite content and are at peace with their decisions. But many of them don't want to discuss it with certain people around because they know they'll be confronted with the whole "you killed your baby" rhetoric, and it's not worth the time or their stomach acid.

Obviously no women who had an abortion over health reasons is going to ever feel guilty, and I wouldn't ever judge them nor shame them. But a quick question, what ever happened to women willing to sacrifice their health for their child? Are we forgetting that for centuries many children were without mothers due to them dying from giving birth. You think, in the afterlife, they are upset they had to die to give life? Nah, unless of course you don't believe in god which would explain everything.

What about women who learn their child has downs, or another complicated mental disorder? I bet you most women abort them. The friends I've had who've gotten abortions simply because they weren't ready for a child, oh I do shame them. I wouldn't ever shame them to their face, but I will speak against them, simply because they didn't have the balls to atleast try, they didn't have the guts to look up^ They didn't even have the courage to seek help, help I directed them too, as if the decision was already predetermined or set in stone. It was like it was something they could brush off their shoulder. Naw. Just naw. I'm dam near glad my mom didn't have a choice, not because I'm happy/unhappy that I'm alive, but because my mother was willing to die for me. She still would. I'd die for the ones I love.

For you to vouch for women on the grounds that you've given birth to two children and raised them means nothing, unless of course you'd admit you'd sacrifice your life for your children, or your dreams, aspirations, etc. If you would, I'd take your statement as sincere.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Obviously no women who had an abortion over health reasons is going to ever feel guilty, and I wouldn't ever judge them nor shame them. But a quick question, what ever happened to women willing to sacrifice their health for their child? Are we forgetting that for centuries many children were without mothers due to them dying from giving birth. You think, in the afterlife, they are upset they had to die to give life? Nah, unless of course you don't believe in god which would explain everything.

What about women who learn their child has downs, or another complicated mental disorder? I bet you most women abort them. The friends I've had who've gotten abortions simply because they weren't ready for a child, oh I do shame them. I wouldn't ever shame them to their face, but I will speak against them, simply because they didn't have the balls to atleast try, they didn't have the guts to look up^

For you to vouch for women on the grounds that you've given birth to two children and raised them means nothing, unless of course you state that you would die for them.

The pro-choice position supports women who choose to have a child in the face of great risk or trying circumstances, too.

Their perspective is valid. However, this doesn't make some other woman's perspective - who doesn't feel ready for a child or isn't willing to take the risk of pregnancy - is invalid.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Obviously no women who had an abortion over health reasons is going to ever feel guilty, and I wouldn't ever judge them nor shame them. But a quick question, what ever happened to women willing to sacrifice their health for their child? Are we forgetting that for centuries many children were without mothers due to them dying from giving birth. You think, in the afterlife, they are upset they had to die to give life? Nah, unless of course you don't believe in god which would explain everything.

Has nothing to do with it. Women from all walks of life, young and old, rich and poor, theist and non-theist, have sought to terminate pregnancies. This is a woman's health issue.

What about women who learn their child has downs, or another complicated mental disorder? I bet you most women abort them.

Says who? You? Anything to back it up? That's quite an assumption and quite a claim.

The friends I've had who've gotten abortions simply because they weren't ready for a child, oh I do shame them.

In direct contradiction to your previous statement that I bolded. So, do you shame them or judge them or not?

I wouldn't ever shame them to their face, but I will speak against them, simply because they didn't have the balls to atleast try, they didn't have the guts to look up^ They didn't even have the courage to seek help, help I directed them too, as if the decision was already predetermined or set in stone. It was like it was something they could brush off their shoulder. Naw. Just naw. I'm dam near glad my mom didn't have a choice, not because I'm happy/unhappy that I'm alive, but because my mother was willing to die for me. She still would. I'd die for the ones I love.

Good for you. Your choice, and says nothing about whether or not you're a good person or a murderer.

For you to vouch for women on the grounds that you've given birth to two children and raised them means nothing, unless of course you'd admit you'd sacrifice your life for your children, or your dreams, aspirations, etc. If you would, I'd take your statement as sincere.

LOL you obviously know so little about me and what I've given to my family and the kids I have taught for 25 years.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know, whenever I see you post, my heart beats hard :hearts:

Thanks, cutie.

Ehm...

Necessity is different, and the mother's health is important. I just hope some don't use it as an excuse to justify their desire for abortion. As far as I can see, we are talking about normal situations here. I don't see a problem in breaking some rules, only as sufficiently needed, if a necessity presents it self, and a real valid and honest one, not a justifying one.

The problem with this stance is that the woman herself isn't assumed to be the primary source for decided if an abortion is necessary for her. Who gets to decide for her what happens to her body?

This is a slippery slope, understanding that if we tell her what she is allowed to do with her uterus, with her reproductive system, with her breasts, with her face, what is going to stop it? When is the line drawn for her to finally decide for herself what she wants in her body and what she doesn't want in her body?

Then again, in a culture such as this, that shames women for unintended pregnancies, for being victims of rape, for being catcalled, for not spending enough time with their kids, for not doing their wifely duties....it isn't at all surprising that positions that claim to champion the life of a fetus is quick to pull the trigger on the Shame Gun against women who don't want to be pregnant.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

One of my friends, when she was 7 months along, had major complications: over the course of a few hours, she went from what they thought was a normal pregnancy to needing an emergency C-section. If she hadn't been in a big city and close to a hospital, she probably would have died.

I would never fault any woman for not wanting to take on the risk of pregnancy.

I wish more people would pay attention to this.

Pregnancy is a MAJOR health concern for a woman. Perhaps if we were to offer a likely scenario, and tell pro-lifers who are against a woman's choice, that I should get to tell them they should be conscripted to go into Afghanistan where my son is right now and fight right alongside him. That if they don't, they deserve to be shamed because they're not supporting my sons safety and that putting themselves at risk 24/7 is just an inconvenience.

 

[Thruve]

The pro-choice position supports women who choose to have a child in the face of great risk or trying circumstances, too.

Their perspective is valid. However, this doesn't make some other woman's perspective - who doesn't feel ready for a child or isn't willing to take the risk of pregnancy - is invalid.

Oh is that so. Ok.
Well, one female in particular that I worked with a few years ago was one piece of work dude. I mean, she was.. A piece of work. Before I learned she had a daughter who was five, all I knew was that she used to be a mad stripper, was addicted to crack, and had a massaging business on the side to which she always gave happy endings. This was what she told me, atleast, and judging by her character, I believed it lol. Anyway, as of two years ago when I worked with her, she was on a different path. She still popped pills and smoked weed, and she still was probably giving happy endings, but she wasn't on a direct path to her coffin. Why? Her daughter.

I had went to her house once when her husband wasn't home to deliver her last work check, given she had just quit. The reason why the husband statement is relevant was because after leaving her house that day her neighbor told me to gtfo cause her husband was coming home and he'd make a huge scene. Real quick I asked her about her daughter and she said the daughter saved her life. She said exactly what I originally thought just by observation and irony.

 

[Willamena]

Necessity is different, and the mother's health is important. I just hope some don't use it as an excuse to justify their desire for abortion. As far as I can see, we are talking about normal situations here. I don't see a problem in breaking some rules, only as sufficiently needed, if a necessity presents it self, and a real valid and honest one, not a justifying one.

Fear can be an honest necessity.

 

[Smart_Guy]

The problem with this stance is that the woman herself isn't assumed to be the primary source for decided if an abortion is necessary for her. Who gets to decide for her what happens to her body?

This is a slippery slope, understanding that if we tell her what she is allowed to do with her uterus, with her reproductive system, with her breasts, with her face, what is going to stop it? When is the line drawn for her to finally decide for herself what she wants in her body and what she doesn't want in her body?

Then again, in a culture such as this, that shames women for unintended pregnancies, for being victims of rape, for being catcalled, for not spending enough time with their kids, for not doing their wifely duties....it isn't at all surprising that positions that claim to champion the life of a fetus is quick to pull the trigger on the Shame Gun against women who don't want to be pregnant.

What the woman think is very important, and she comes in the first place to decide. She's the one carrying the baby after all. I'm not saying no about that. I'm only calling for considering all sides not just one, to be responsible, and I include the society too, not just the women. There is another innocent life on the line. I'm just worried about that life too as I am worried about the health of the women. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not an enemy of women

I believe a pregnant women should not simply decide to have an abortion just because she wants to, and whoever is against abortion has no right to tell, out of the blue, a pregnant women not to make her free choice. I'm only trying to be rational here and worry about both sides.

Fear can be an honest necessity.

Yes it certainly can ma'am, I agree

I also dare say it can be a very strong necessity.

All we need is to be responsible and think rationally living our lives, and care for each other.

 

[dawny0826]

What the woman think is very important, and she comes in the first place to decide. She's the one carrying the baby after all. I'm not saying no about that. I'm only calling for considering all sides not just one, to be responsible, and I include the society too, not just the women. There is another innocent life on the line. I'm just worried about that life too as I am worried about the health of the women. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not an enemy of women

I'm passionately pro-life as an indiviudal. I'm pro-choice, politically, primarily because I'm comfortable with the laws in the state that I reside in.

Abortion is legal through the second trimester of pregnancy, though second trimester abortions must be performed in a hospital setting. I'm comfortable with these laws as women have the right to make a decision during the first six months of pregnancy and can access abortion.

Morally, I don't worry about casting my vote for pro-choice legislation as it doesn't outwardly support the termination of viable life (outside the womb).

I believe a pregnant women should not simply decide to have an abortion just because she wants to, and whoever is against abortion has no right to tell, out of the blue, a pregnant women not to make her free choice. I'm only trying to be rational here and worry about both sides.

I agree with you. Considering the contraceptive choices available to women, I think that educational efforts are paramount. If women are aware of their own bodies and the resources available to them to remain in control of their own reproductive health, we're less apt to find women struggling with the decision to terminate a pregnancy in the latter months of a pregnancy.

All we need is to be responsible and think rationally living our lives, and care for each other.

I agree with this as well.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Dunno if this makes sense but I am "pro-life" in regards to myself and my moral reasoning but I am "pro choice" politically because I don't feel my personal opinion on the matter should inflict upon someone else's.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh is that so. Ok.
Well, one female in particular that I worked with a few years ago was one piece of work dude. I mean, she was.. A piece of work. Before I learned she had a daughter who was five, all I knew was that she used to be a mad stripper, was addicted to crack, and had a massaging business on the side to which she always gave happy endings. This was what she told me, atleast, and judging by her character, I believed it lol. Anyway, as of two years ago when I worked with her, she was on a different path. She still popped pills and smoked weed, and she still was probably giving happy endings, but she wasn't on a direct path to her coffin. Why? Her daughter.

I had went to her house once when her husband wasn't home to deliver her last work check, given she had just quit. The reason why the husband statement is relevant was because after leaving her house that day her neighbor told me to gtfo cause her husband was coming home and he'd make a huge scene. Real quick I asked her about her daughter and she said the daughter saved her life. She said exactly what I originally thought just by observation and irony.

So... in the interests of your co-worker, if Child & Family Services had stepped in and taken her daughter away from her, you'd advocate for her to get her daughter back?

That seems to be the implication here: that you think that things are better overall with her raising a child than if she wasn't. Am I understanding you properly?

 

[Thruve]

So... in the interests of your co-worker, if Child & Family Services had stepped in and taken her daughter away from her, you'd advocate for her to get her daughter back?

That seems to be the implication here: that you think that things are better overall with her raising a child than if she wasn't. Am I understanding you properly?

All Im saying is that had she not had the child, she'd of been dead. She is the prime example of someone who had a child who really wasn't ready, to which most people would have justified her decision to have an abortion had she chosen to do so. In comparison to other females who think their not ready, she throws it all out the window since many females who 'arent' ready had not, and prob never will, have/had the life she had.

Given that her little girl is being raised in a mess of a home, If child services ever came along to intervene and take the daughter, no, I would not use that as an advocate for her to keep her daughter. However, are you suggesting that all children raised in such a mess are worse off? Do they end up worse off? Sure! All the time though? No. I guess 'God', if you believe in such things, would be the determining factor in that case. I've met plenty of 'kids' raised in the druggy hood who ended up as doctors/police/teacher/etc. Miracles do happen you know. Maybe not as often as you'd think, but they do happen. From a theists perspective, perhaps the little girl was her saving grace.

 

[Leftimies]

C) Other.

I do believe that sometimes abortion might actually be needed; at same time, I cannot fathom the vanity of the people who take the risk and do not carry the responsibility.

Because it is a life you are talking about. So you go on having good time, have sex and so on, but when the risk materializes, you don't think you owe it to the child to let him/her live?
Talk about setting an example.

I have always believed in carrying responsibility for others, especially when it comes to their lives.
Yet, I recognize that life often has varying circumstances, and what I think here might not be applicable to practical reality.

 

[oldbadger]

Are you a Pro Life or Pro Choice?

Pro need. Had to vote 'other'.

 

[Maldini]

I can never give an easy, straight answer to this question.

I hate abortion.
I believe life begins at conception.
I am Pro Life.

I talked a friend out of having an abortion just before her appointment because I knew her well enough to know she'd hate herself if she went through with it. I helped her to see she had other options. She still thanks me 25 years later.

I do not believe I have the right to make decisions for another woman's body.
I do not judge women who have had abortions.
If given the opportunity, I would vote Pro Choice.

That's same as saying men are keeping human lives in their scrotum.

 

[Leftimies]

That's same as saying men are keeping human lives in their scrotum.

Uh...no its not. Not same at all. Sperm doesn't evolve into anything by itself. Neither does an egg. But an egg fertilized by a sperm does evolve into a member of the species in question.

Which is what the person you replied to was referring to: conception. Conception is the birth of life process in reproductive cycle, i.e, moment of egg's fertilization.

 

[Maldini]

Whatever it is at the time of birth doesn't evolve itself to life either, it needs an environment from the mother, which ironically you think shouldn't have a say in whether it should be turned into a human life later.

The fact that my body creates sperms means I'm ready to create life. It's your assumption that life begins at conception. Life begins when there is a human being alive, not when one step is taken in a long road.

 

[Leftimies]

Whatever it is at the time of birth doesn't evolve itself to life either, it needs an environment from the mother, which ironically you think shouldn't have a say in whether it should be turned into a human life later.

Some people just systematically refuse to see existence of potential. There is potential in every child, as they do eventually grow to be adult human beings. Indeed who knows what kind of genius mind we deny of existence?

Did the mother not set things in motion when she got pregnant? Its not like women turn pregnant spontaneously. It takes effort, in the case you didn't know. So much so that some couples never get it. And in the age of preventive pills, condoms and other things, it takes refined skill to get pregnant if one is using the combination of all the preventive measures. Of course, it is easy if one was just sloppy and didn't really care. And it is my belief that no human being should be denied of existence and potential on the basis of somebody not being careful enough. Burden of responsibility weighs heavy in life, not just here but in general.

I understand abortion if the pregnancy is because of rape. That is something that really is the "exception to the rule". There I agree to abortion: it was not the woman's decision in the first place. Thus, responsibility is not hers either.