Proof of Islam?

[Tober Canton]

If Allah /God is innately the same and ontologically Dvaita (Duality) dissolves into Advaita (non-duality), then whom are you worshiping? Why are you doing such an ignorant thing as worshiping yourself?

I am nothing, God is everything. Prayer is not worshiping myself, it is remembrance (dhikr) of The Real.

As the Qur'an states "Remember me and I will remember you" (Surah 2:152), this relates to comprehending the Divine (Absolute Reality/God) through practices like prayer and mantra. Through living one's life focused towards the Will of the Divine (Absolute Reality/God).

 

[Tober Canton]

Dvaita always dissolves into Advaita ontologically one way or another.

And of course, Advaitists experience their everyday waking state from the point of separation, so you @Aupmanyav are asking non-questions. We are speaking to each other as if we are separate because we are experiencing reality as separate. From the perspective of God (Absolute Reality), there is only it though, nothing else exists but it.

And unless you've experienced some form of Samadhi (and the various other terms used in the Abrahamic traditions), then you would be only holding onto beliefs in this Advaita.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am nothing, God is everything.

That is again a misrepresentation of facts. You are the same, You have to ontologically dissolve in Allah or whatever you know him as in one way or other. Hindu books clearly say "Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti" (what exists if one, there is no second). They say it very categorically and emphatically because the verse goes on to say "nasti, nasti, nasti, na nasti kinchana" (No, no, no, not in the least). By worship Allah, you establish that there is not just one but some other also. Put in Islamic/Bahai terminology, you are engaging in riddah, kufr.

And of course, Advaitists experience their everyday waking state from the point of separation, so you @Aupmanyav are asking non-questions. We are speaking to each other as if we are separate because we are experiencing reality as separate.

I know you and me are the same and that there was no difference in Bahaollah and Caliph Ibrahim, both were none other than Brahman. It is your ignorance which differentiates between yourself and me. This is 'maya'.

 

[Tober Canton]

That is again a misrepresentation of facts. You are the same, You have to ontologically dissolve in Allah or whatever you know him as in one way or other.

In part perhaps, as throughout the Qur'an it states "Everything returns to Allah".
However at the same time, everything comes into being and then has it's expiry point.
The self, nor the soul, neither really go anywhere because they are temporary conditional consciousness' that serve the role of navigation and identity. They cease.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaollah gave a secondary position to Jesus, since he said that Bab was the returning Jesus, the Mahdi, and he is a notch higher than that, being a manifestation. He makes Jesus and Bab his heralds. There is no end to the ego of Bahaollah. So Jesus may be Alpha and Omega, but he is still a notch lower than him.

You have some rather crazy ideas about Baha'u'llah. Jesus was a Manifestation of God in His own right but He left His work unfinished so Baha'u'llah came to finish it.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Bab was not the return of Jesus, He was the Gate by which Baha'u'llah entered and He came to announce the Coming of Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ Spirit, the Comforter and Spirit of truth that Jesus promised to send from the Father: Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

As Baha’is, we are not to distinguish between any of the Messengers of God, who we call Manifestations of God, because we believe God is One and all his religions were all revealed by the One True God. Each Messenger had a specific purpose and mission that was “pertinent” to the day in which He appeared. We are not to make distinctions between any of the Messengers or elevate one over another.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

.And finally, tell me who were Jesus and Mohammad for Bahais? At times you list them in the nine or so manifestations, and here you are terming them as prophets, Bahaollah being something different, he was not a prophet. Why do you change your colors like a chameleons? Some times this and some times that.

Jesus and Muhammad were Manifestations of God just like the Bab and Baha'u'llah. As the passage above says, we are not to make any distinctions between the Manifestations of God because all of them reflect the Divine will and Purpose.

Do you mean for the last seven years you are doing nothing else but promoting Bahai belief in internet forums? Do we get a compensation?

No, that is not what I said. I said "Then seven years ago I decided to make another attempt at being a Baha'i, an endeavor that has claimed all my time." Being a Baha'i does not involve 'promoting' Baha'i beliefs; involves 'sharing' Bahai beliefs, but it also involves trying to improve my own character and strengthening my own faith in God and in Baha'u'lah.

 

[Tober Canton]

It is your ignorance which differentiates between yourself and me. This is 'maya'.

Precisely as I have said above in different language.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can never believe that God is innately separate from it's creation (manifestation/creation/emanation/the universe/etc) or else you contradict the very concept of God (Absolute Reality).

Can you explain what you mean by that? If God is not separate from His Creation, why did Baha'u'llah write the following? If God is one and alone and self-subsisting, God would be separate from His Creation.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

 

[Tober Canton]

Can you explain what you mean by that? If God is not separate from His Creation, why did Baha'u'llah write the following? If God is one and alone and self-subsisting, God would be separate from His Creation.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

This is correct and the Qur'an agrees on this entirely, the point your missing though is the omnipresence of God, as well as the ontological dependence of all things on the Ultimate Reality (God).

The end of the quote from Baha'u'llah (A.S.) is very case-in-point to what I'm saying "To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory"

 

[Trailblazer]

This is correct and the Qur'an agrees on this entirely, the point your missing though is the omnipresence of God, as well as the ontological dependence of all things on the Ultimate Reality (God).

The end of the quote from Baha'u'llah (A.S.) is very case-in-point to what I'm saying "To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory"

I understand what you are saying about omnipresence and dependence on God, but God being everywhere is just a bit difficult to grasp with my finite mind.

 

[Tober Canton]

I understand what you are saying about omnipresence and dependence on God, but God being everywhere is just a bit difficult to grasp with my finite mind.

Agreed

 

[Tober Canton]

@Trailblazer

Interestingly from section 165 of the Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah, states:

"Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: "Verily, we are God's, and to Him shall we return." (Qur'an) The mysteries of man's physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God -- exalted be His glory -- to hasten their end."

I thought it was somewhat relevant to the various things discussed.

 

[Duncan]

How can they know about God when God hides himself from the world. He has never shown his presence. Has he come to stop Corona virus? Did he come to help the people of Aceh in earthquakes or tsunamis? Did he appear in Japan to stop American atomic bombing? Did he come to Syria and Iraq to stop atrocities on women by followers of Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi?

It`s an interesting question brother, I had once a talk with an atheist who asked nearly the same questions, why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.

There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.

But you might ask why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?

It is good to ask questions to understand Allah’s ways in His creation. The Quran tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah’s Will. Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Quran tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Quran has not given us all the details about Allah’s Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that you should keep in mind to understand this issue:

1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.

2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one’s health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:

“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur’an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures.”(Ar-Rahman:1-10)

The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Quran says:

“If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants.”(Fatir:45)

But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Quran tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:

“If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?”(Al-Hajj: 42-45)

3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah’s Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Quran as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

“Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, ‘O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me.’ He will say, ‘O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds.’ Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?’ Allah will say, ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not.’ He shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?’ And Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?’ ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink.’ The man shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?’ Allah will say, ‘My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me.’(Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)

Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar. (SeeMatthew25: 35-45)

So basically brother, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test.

Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him.

 

[Duncan]

How can they know about God when God hides himself from the world. He has never shown his presence. Has he come to stop Corona virus? Did he come to help the people of Aceh in earthquakes or tsunamis? Did he appear in Japan to stop American atomic bombing? Did he come to Syria and Iraq to stop atrocities on women by followers of Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi? Do you mean that all who worship God/Allah are uneducated? You say strange things. Is it because of your faith?

You also asked why God is hiding, not showing himself so basically you want to see him as you see the moon , the stars, you want to see God, well in a nutshell, we cannot see Allah because, first, as He said in the Quran : There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. 42:11
Our eyes, and other senses and faculties, are relative things and thus, can only see other relative things belonging to the corresponding existential realms. They cannot see, hear or recognize beyond the orb of our everyday existential things and objects.

The human mind is a true marvel brother, but in certain areas it is limited. Allah is different from anything the human mind can think of or imagine. Therefore, if the mind tries to picture Allah, certain aspects will be ambiguous and open to indefinite interpretation. Nevertheless, it is possible to understand the attributes of Allah which do not require making any mental pictures. For example, one of Allah’s names is al-Ghaffar, which means ‘Oft-Forgiver’. Everyone can understand this easily because that is how the human mind can clearly think of Allah. Jewish and Christian teachings on God are confused partly because of their incorrect understanding of this issue. The Jewish Torah teaches God is like man:
“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…so God made man in His own image.’ (Genesis 1:26-27)

Moreover, certain Christians put statues or images of an old white bearded man depicting God in their churches. Some of these were produced by the likes of Michelangelo, who depicted the Face and Hand ‘of God’ – a tough looking old man - in paintings.

Rendering images of God in Islam is an impossibility, and amounts to disbelief, as Allah tells us in the Quran that nothing resembles Him:

“There is nothing like Him, but He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”(Quran 42:11)

“There is nothing comparable to Him.”(Quran 112:4)

I am sure you are aware of the story of moises peace be upon him and his request to See Allah

Eyes can not grasp Allah, He tells us in the Quran:

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but He his grasp is over all vision.”(Quran 6:103)

Moses, to whom God spoke and gave great miracles, was chosen by Allah to be His Prophet. It is said, that Moses thought that, since Allah used to speak to him, he might be able to actually see Allah if he asked. The story is in the Quran, where Allah tells us what happened:

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (Allah) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’”(Quran 7:143)

Allah made it clear that no one, including the great prophet Moses, can bear the sight of the divine, for Allah is too great to be grasped by human eyes in this life. According to the Quran, Moses realized his request was in error; therefore, he sought forgiveness from Allah for having even thought to ask.

 

[Duncan]

Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.

Thank you Trailblazer, yes I do speak Arabic and I read the Quran in Arabic, But I also read it in English. I gave you clear verses in the Quran that says Muhammed is a final prophet, let me try again

You see the belief that the Prophet Muhammad is the last prophet and messenger of God therefore means that after him there will not arise any person who will be authorized by God to express his will for others and/or institute a new religious direction by a new expression of the religious truth and forming a religious community around that expression. Any person claiming to have such authority is suffering from self-deception and/or is lying, no matter how smart he may be or how many miraculous deeds he may perform.

Now is this belief an authentic Islamic belief? or Is this belief reasonable?

Let me start by saying that a belief can be considered an authentic Islamic belief in the following two senses:

a) the belief is accepted widely and for a long period of time;

b) the belief is duly supported by the primary sources of Islam: the Quran and Hadith. In the first sense the belief is obviously authentic. We need to examine the authenticity of the belief in the second sense.

When you look at the Quranic basis ( I know you said you haven`t read it ) and I`m going to go through with you chapter 33 v40 Muhammad is not the father of any male among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets; and God is aware of all things.

You see, here is the power of Arabic language, you cannot translate it because it will lose it`s meaning, you can just explain, and here the Arabic word for seal is khatam which by a change of vowel can also be read as khatim, meaning "that which puts the seal". Both words are derivatives of khatama, which means both to end or conclude something or to put a seal in order to indicate such an end or conclusion (you can yourself look into it in Lisan al-`Arab, Qamus, Aqrab al-Muwarid).

No matter how the word is supplied with vowels, which were omitted in the original Arabic script, the most reasonable way, if not the only way, to understand the verse is that Muhammad completed and closed the prophethood as a seal marks the completion and closure of a document, that is, he was the last prophet. This interpretation is also clear from the reference to the Prophet not leaving behind any son.

To understand this reference we need to recall that in the Arab society before Islam it was extremely important for a man to have a son. In fact the birth of a female was an occasion of sadness, as the Quran itself testifies:

They assign to God daughters -- Glory be to him! -- while to themselves (the sons) that they desire. When one of them is given the news of (the birth) of a female, his face is darkened and he is wroth inside. He hides himself from the people because of (what he considers to be) the ill of the news he has been given. (He asks himself): shall I keep it in contempt or bury it in the dust. Evil indeed is their judgment (both in regard to attributing daughters to God and the choices they give themselves regarding their own daughters) (16:57-59).

Some indeed buried their daughters alive. In regard to this the Quran says, referring to the day of judgment:

And when (about) the girl-infant who was buried alive (it) is asked, For what she was she killed?(81:8-9) .

Connected with this type of attitude was the belief that it is only through a son that a man gets posterity. A person without a son was called abtar (one who is cut off). The disbelievers applied this description to the Prophet because he did not have sons, although he did have daughters when he started his mission. Regarding this the Quran says:

We gave you (O Prophet) the abundance (of blessings) ;So pray to your Lord and sacrifice;It is surely your insulter who will be cut off (abtar) (108:1- 3).

So now turning to the description "seal of the prophets" the meaning of the reference to the absence of a male descendant of the Prophet now becomes clear: Muhammad may not live on through his male descendants according to your way of thinking, but he will live on for ever in a much more important way. For because of its finality, his prophethood will last forever and will be a source of everlasting and abundant blessings. (And in this way he will also deal a blow to your attitudes towards daughters.)

The above interpretation is further supported by the fact that the Quran never looks forward to a future revelation or prophet. Thus in the very beginning of the Quran the characteristics of the pious are given which include: Those who believe in what is sent down to you (O my Prophet) and in what was sent down before you (2:4) .

Read the Quran even if you are not interested and you will see there is no reference to what will be sent down after the Prophet. Nowhere else the Quran refers to a future prophet or revelation. The significance of this observation can be seen more clearly by a comparison with the Old and the New Testaments, where there are frequent references to future revelations. Thus in the Old Testament we find this promise of a future prophet or a series of prophets:

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [like Moses] from your own people; you shall heed such a prophet (Deut 18:15; see also 18:18).

Indeed, a great deal of the Old Testament is a prophecy of future revelation of one kind or another. Likewise, the New Testament also looks forward to future revelation:

And I [Jesus], will ask the Father and he will send you another Paraclete to be with you forever (John 14:16). I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come (John 16:12-13).

In contrast to both the Old and New Testaments, the chronologically last verse of the Quran declares:
Today I have completed my religion for you and perfected my favor on you and chosen al-islam as your religion (part of 5 :3).

The Quran regards itself as coming in fulfillment of earlier prophecy: Say, whether or not you believe in it, the fact is that those who possessed knowledge before it fall on their faces in humble prostration when it is recited to them. And they say, Glory to our Lord and Sustainer: Surely the promise of Our Lord and Sustainer was to be fulfilled! (17:107-108; see also, 7:157, 61:6).

But it does not prophesy for the coming after it of another revelation. Its prophecy is only of its own inevitable final victory: He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all religion, however much those who practice shirk may be averse (61:9).

This prevailing of Islam is not understood to be through any human force, but simply the result of the inevitable victory of a truer expression of the same religion over other expressions. Notice that the Quran does not say "prevail over all religions" but over all religion (in the singular). Every religion is really trying to express the same truth. Islam is the clearest and most effective expression of that truth and therefore is destined to replace all other expressions. It is like when a better and more economical model of a product such as the computer or the car comes on the market it necessarily replaces after due time the older less efficient and more expensive model.

The claimants of prophethood that have arisen from within the Muslim world and who therefore recognize the divine origin of the Quran or the followers of such claimants have tried to explain the words "seal (or last) of the prophets" in other ways. For example, it is said that the expression means: "the Prophet has reached the ultimate in excellence in all respect," that is, he was the last or seal of the prophet in the sense that he carried prophethood to its final point of development. In regard to such an interpretation the following points may be noted: First, the interpretation has doubtful support in the usage of the word khatam and certainly not supported by its usual meaning. Second, any interpretation of the expression must explain why it is combined in the Quran with the observation that the Prophet had no male descendant. Understanding "last" in the sense of the final point of development does not adequately provide the required explanation. Third, the view can be at the most accepted as a secondary interpretation which supports the primary interpretation in the sense that the prophethood has come to end by virtue of reaching its final point of development.

Do you want me to go through the Hadith basis?

 

[Duncan]

the words Rasool and Nabi

The Quranic verse under consideration says that Muhammad was a messenger and the seal of the prophets. That there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger is clear from this verse as well as others (And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet.... 22:52). But what is the difference?

The Quran assumes that the meaning of a prophet is well understood by its hearers. He is a figure who is inspired by God for some form of guidance for a people. He may not necessarily bring a new law or establish a new religious community, for in 4:44 a reference is made to the Israelite prophets who judged by the Torah rather than by a new law brought by them.

The messenger means one who is sent by God with a message. He also receives divine inspiration, for otherwise he cannot be "sent" by God. Hence every messenger is a prophet. All nations have received messengers, for the Quran says: "And for every nation there is a messenger" (10:47). Moreover, the messenger is meant to be obeyed: "We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by God's leave" (4:64). Nations that rejected the messengers sent to them were destroyed or punished (26: 105-191). Similar statements are not made about prophets. It thus appears that God acts through a messenger more decisively than through a mere prophet.

 

[Duncan]

Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in His work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.

In his writings Bahaullah has ridiculed the Muslim belief in the end of prophethood as if this is a logical absurdity. Yet if one believes in the end of the world, this belief, far from being a logical absurdity is seen to be a logical necessity. For if history as we know it is bound to come to an end, then there has to be at least one last prophet. The question therefore is whether the belief in the end of the world is an absurd belief. Apart from the fact that such a belief is found in the teachings of many of the prophets whom Bahaullah recognizes, this belief is consistent with whatever we known about the universe. In this universe everything is in a state of transition. It is therefore to be expected that this world as we know it will one day be radically transformed so that it is no longer possible to think of it as the same world as before. This, as noted before, necessarily leads to the conclusion that there has to be a last prophet.

One basis on which the belief in a last prophet is ridiculed by Bahaullah is that new questions always arise and therefore there is need for new revelation to answer those questions. This objection, however, assumes that the purpose of the messengers of God is to answer all questions. If this was so, then why has God given humankind a strong intellect and intuition? The truth is that the purpose of the prophets is not to answer for us all necessary questions but to enable us to answer all necessary questions. They bring human beings in touch with their true nature (fitrah), enabling them to use their God-given faculties to answer all necessary questions. Of course this process is not irreversible in that it is possible that despite the work of the prophets people once again get disoriented from their true nature and their God-given faculties and judgment get blurred, disabling them from finding solutions to the questions they face. Before Islam this situation could prompt the rising of another prophet, but after the Prophet Muhammad this work will be done by reformers from within his followers. This is because through him the religious truth has been expressed in a sufficiently universal and complete way and has been preserved in its original form. Prior to him a new prophet was required under one or more of the following situations.

1) There was need for a prophet to be sent to a certain nation to which no prophet had been sent before and the message brought by the prophet of another nation either could not have reached these people or it was not expressed in a way suitable for them.

2) The teachings of earlier prophets had been forgotten by the people or distorted so that they could no longer properly guide the people.

3) The teachings of the earlier prophets did not provide complete enough guidance so that there was need for some further guidance from God.

But when finally the Prophet came with a complete, universal and faithfully preserved revelation from God which has reached or can reach all nations, there remained no need for a new prophet. Through his well-preserved revelatory words and deeds the spirit of prophecy has achieved a permanent and universal presence in the world and hence the need for a new prophet has been removed forever.

Another reason that Bahaullah ridicules the Muslim belief in the end of prophethood is that for him it means that mercies of God have come to an end. But God can shower his mercies on humankind either through a new prophetic revelation or a well-preserved existing revelation. Muslims in any case believe that Muhammad is the source of everlasting mercies of God for all the nations till the day of judgment. Far from the mercies of God coming to an end

with the conclusion of prophethood, they have become everlasting. Through his word and example, fortunate among the humans will forever experience the presence of God and receive his abundant grace. As God says in the Quran:

We have not sent you (O Muhammad) save as a mercy for all humankind. We have given you (O Muhammad) kawthar (a source of abundant grace).

 

[Duncan]

I am not sure where you are getting your information but unless you can prove it is actually true it is false information promoted and propagated by the enemies of the Baha'i Faith who are hoping to convince hapless souls that the Baha'i Faith is not what it clams to be. This kind of calumny is commonly seen whenever a new Manifestation of God appears on earth, and there is a reason for it: Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth.

I believe I had attached references, book names and page numbers, easy to verify. As I noted earlier in my previous post to you, one reason that Bahaullah ridicules the Islamic belief in the end of prophethood is that there always arise new questions which require fresh guidance from God. Let us see three new things that Bahaullah has introduced into religion and see what new questions they answer which are not answered or could not be answered within the earlier religious traditions.

1) Bahaullah has replaced the lunar year which determines Muslim holidays by a solar year divided into nineteen months of nineteen years. This has two implications.

First , it has fixed the lengths of the months, which can make the organization of the society smoother. But the same result could have been achieved either by adopting the common calendar which is now followed throughout the world or by promoting the view that the start and end of the lunar months be determined by astronomical calculations. Any one of these two solutions are in fact far more convenient and economical. For Bahaullah's innovation would require that at one point the world should change to his new system. However, our experience with the Y2K problem, which cost the world an estimated 100 billion dollars, shows that such a change would be fraught with unnecessary dangers and expenses.

Second , Bahaullah's rearrangement of calendar has shortened the Ramadan fast. But if in the past centuries when humans were less protected against heat and cold, God required believers to fast for thirty days despite saying that "God wants ease not hardship for you", now that most of us are living in much more comfortable conditions how is it that he wants them to fast for 19 days? The truth is that fasting is the most popular of the practices of Islam, which shows that it was never the sort of thing which needed to be made easier by the advent of another prophet.

2) Bahaullah has "prohibited" slavery. In regard to this we need to make two important observations.

First , it is easy to take a pen and write beautiful things or beautiful sounding things, but to actually effect changes in history is the real job. Divine intervention through a prophet should achieve this latter, harder task. But when Bahaullah lived, slavery was on its way out already. In prohibiting it, he was simply following a strong existing trend. Abraham Lincoln, in eliminating slavery from his country, where it was a really big and serious problem, did more for the slaves than did Bahaullah's prohibition of slavery on paper. If a prophet was needed to eliminate slavery, God might have appointed Lincoln as a prophet.

Second , the Islamic teachings about slavery are such that a reformer within Islam could have done whatever he or she wanted for eliminating slavery. A prophet was hardly necessary. Let us briefly review those teachings.

Freeing of slaves is part of being a believer in the Qur'an:

What will make you understand what it is, that steep upward road (that leads to God and salvation)? It is the freeing of one in bondage; Or the feeding on a day of hunger An orphan near of kin, Or some needy [stranger] lying in the dust. Then will he be among those who have faith and who exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to compassion (90:12-17).

This is an early Makkan passage. But since the orientalists love to say that Muhammad's Makkan message was one of love and compassion which he later abandoned in Medina, I also quote for you a passage from a late chapter of the Medinan period:

Virtue is not that you turn your faces to the East or the West. But virtuous is he who has faith in God and the last day ... and gives his wealth, for love of God, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask for help and to set those in bondage free ... (2:177).

The freeing of slaves is not only to be done at an individual level, but also a portion of the government or community funds is to be used for this purpose.

And the offerings are only for the poor ... for the freeing of those in bondage and those overburdened with debts ... [this is] an ordinance of God and God is all knowing and wise (9:60).

If a believer does not free one of his slaves, it is only because the slave does not want to be freed or is incapable of supporting himself. For the Quran lays down the law:

And if any of those whom you own as slaves want a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you know of some good in them. Also, give them some of the wealth of God that he has given you (24:33).

The slaves that are for some reason or the other not freed, are to be treated with kindness:

And serve God and do not associate any partners in his Godhead. Show kindness to parents, and to near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and to the neighbor who is of kin and the neighbor who is not of kin, and the companion by your side, and the wayfarer, and those whom you own as slaves ... (4:36).

This is further stressed in the prophetic traditions. There is the well-known story of Zayd bin Harithah, a slave of the Prophet. Zayd's father and uncle came to take him with them. They were willing to pay any price. The Prophet said that they need not pay anything; they can take him if Zayd so chooses. But Zayd decided to stay with the Prophet rather than go with his father and uncle. Later the Prophet adopted him as his son. The following traditions, which give rules about the treatment of slaves, are quoted from Bukhari:

The Prophet said: Your slaves are your brothers upon whom God has given you authority. So, if one has one's brothers under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them with the work.

The Prophet said: One should not say to any one, "my slave" ('abdi) or "my slave-girl" (amati), but should say, "my lad" (fatai), "my lass" (fatati), and "my boy" (ghulami).

The Prophet said: He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then manumits her and marries her, will get a double reward.

In classical Islamic law enslaving of a free person without war is prohibited. A Muslim or a non-Muslim dhimmi (one who in exchange for a tax is given protection by the Muslim government) cannot be enslaved even in a war. Prisoners of war may be enslaved only in a nation that would enslave Muslim prisoners of war. In the presence of an international treaty about the treatment of prisoners, enslaving prisoners of war will also be prohibited.

Thus Islam prohibits slavery, but not in the way some people may in our age want it to prohibited. They expect that a passage in the Quran should say: "From now on free all the slaves and do not make any new ones and fight any one who makes or keeps a slave". In the real world things do not work that way, not even when a prophet of God is amongst us. The Quran and Hadith have the wisdom to take into account factors that produced slavery in the first place as well as the consequences of freeing slaves by a legal decree. We can imagine some of these consequences from the American experience, where Lincoln had to use only legal instruments to eliminate slavery. It created a civil war and only after one and a half century the descendants of slaves have begun to gain some measure of acceptance and integration into the economic and social life of the country. In contrast, in the Muslim world slaves to the extent that they existed enjoyed as slaves greater acceptance and integration than did blacks in America as free men for most of their history after the emancipation. This is dramatically illustrated by the fact that slaves could rise to become kings, as is shown by the fact that there was a "slave dynasty" of kings in India.

In any case in the light of the Quranic verses, prophetic traditions, and fiqhi positions reviewed above, it is clear that Islam wants a world without slavery. They leave no need of a new prophet to eliminate slavery. The Quranic revelation provides enough basis for Muslim reformers to come forward and legally ban slavery, if at any time it becomes clear that this is the wisest thing to do. New major prophet is expected when earlier revelation does not provide basis to move forward. This can be seen in relation to the emergence of Islam. There were so many things that could not be done within the earlier Judeo-Christian tradition. Thus, for example, the idea that salvation and revelation were first channeled through one nation (Israel) and then through one individual (Jesus) got so firmly established in the Christian tradition that a truly universal view of salvation and revelation could not be established within the Judeo-Christian tradition. Also, the belief in the divinity of a man had taken deep roots in the Christian tradition so that it could not be combated from within that tradition. Only a new prophet could correct these other errors introduced and sanctified in the earlier religious traditions. Now contrast this with Bahaullah's "prohibition" of slavery. There never was in the history of Islam any time when Muslims believed that slavery is desirable and the world should always have some slaves. At the most one could say that Muslims were not doing enough to realize the Islamic ideal of ridding the world of slavery. But that hardly requires a new prophet. Any reformers really concerned with fully eliminating slavery could achieve the task within Islam.

3) Bahaullah established a movement to form a world government. The idea of such a government is not new. In Islam, especially its Shi`a branch, to which Bahaullah originally belonged, there is a belief in Imam Mahdi who will come as a world ruler and fill the earth with peace and justice. What is new in Bahaism is that it has started a movement to create such a world government. That there will be some kind of world government is highly likely in view of the world increasingly becoming a global village. But the formation of such a government will be the result of an interplay of global political and economic forces at an opportune time. And it is probable that when it happens bahaism will be simply bypassed. In any case, it is not clear why a new prophet was needed for forming such a government. Why, for example, a Muslim reformer and Imam cannot achieve this task, considering the fact that it is one of the missions of Islam to unite all humankind in a single brotherhood/sisterhood under the one true God?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tober Canton said: "In part perhaps, as throughout the Qur'an it states "Everything returns to Allah".
However at the same time, everything comes into being and then has it's expiry point.
The self, nor the soul, neither really go anywhere because they are temporary conditional consciousness' that serve the role of navigation and identity. They cease."

There is no question of parts. Can you divide Allah? Make him into ten little Allahs. No. 'What exists' remains the same in all conditions in all places. Being manifested and then being unmanifested, birth and death, are but 'maya', false view, ignorance. 'What exists' (as you know Hindus term it as Brahman) remains the same. This point is very well explained in the second chapter of BhagawadGita (Chapter Two).

 

[Aupmanyav]

You have some rather crazy ideas about Baha'u'llah. Jesus was a Manifestation of God in His own right but He left His work unfinished so Baha'u'llah came to finish it.

There is nothing crazy about what I have said. You say Bab was the Mahdi and Bab was the returning Jesus. You do not count Bab as a manifestation of Allah, but make Bahaollah a manifestation of Allah. Therefore, being a Mahdi is lower than being a manifestation. Tober Canton makes Jesus into no more than a prophet.

That is what I mentioned in a previous post. You are changing colors like a chameleon. Sometimes you would take Jesus as a manifestation and sometimes no more than a Mahdi or a prophet. You clearly downgrade Jesus and then you go on to claim that you respect Bible and Jesus.

And unless you've experienced some form of Samadhi (and the various other terms used in the Abrahamic traditions), then you would be only holding onto beliefs in this Advaita.

My friend, I have experienced everything that can is to be experienced. I am an enlightened person, you can say like Buddha who is my guru (though I do not take it upon myself to enlighten the world. I am a 'Pacceka Buddha'). I have the answers to all my questions and no doubt in my mind about them. All this talk about Gods, revelations, and 'divine missions' is so childish.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Wrong. Bahaollah claimed to be a manifestation of Allah.
Manifestation, according to Dictionary.com is: outward or perceptible indication; materialization: At first there was no manifestation of the disease; a public demonstration, as for political effect; Spiritualism. a materialization.

So basically, Allah materialized in form of Bahaollah. He and his successors coined a new word, since prophet, messenger, son, mahdi, were already in use (one has to produce something new to be able to sell).You need to choose a title by which people will know you. Everyone has done it. How should we address you?
Perhaps you can be an Imam or Caliph or Wali-Allah. There is no bar in using these terms repeatedly.
Caliph (Khalifa in Hindi)! Now, that is interesting. Would you like to be one? Here is your chance.

Mitra.

So "Manifestation of Allah doesn't mean "manifested by Allah" but means "God manifested in person"? (I provided links about all this earlier, but I'd like to know and see all that people can find to show that Baha'Ullah was saying he himself is God in person.