Proof of Islam?

[WonderingWorrier]

Only in the sense that the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies in their scriptures.

What prophecies do you think they fulfilled?

 

[Trailblazer]

And you and your Bahaollah have evidence since you have returned from death! Don't take atheists to be fools to believe in what garbage these prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis talk or write without showing an iota of evidence.

The Crimson Ark of the Baha'

I love your boat, but I don't think that is what Baha'u'llah was talking about, and by the way, I would still believe in an afterlife even if I was not a Baha'i, because there is 'other evidence' that is even more revealing than anything Baha'u'llah wrote. Baha'u'llah kept most of what He knew about the afterlife under his hat.

Here you go. Have fun, but I would tread lightly if you read the Heaven and Hell book, because hell is no place you would want to go. That book should be enough to make a believer about of anyone.

The Afterlife Revealed
Private Dowding
Heaven and Hell

 

[Trailblazer]

What prophecies do you think they fulfilled?

All the prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, OT and NT.

Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

I am quite certain they also fulfilled the prophecies of all the other religions since they all await a Messiah, but I am not familiar with those prophecies.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why? Where do you think God is?

I have no idea.
God resides on His Throne of Glory in the spiritual world, but I do not know what that means, other than that God is out of our reach.

 

[Trailblazer]

You see the belief that the Prophet Muhammad is the last prophet and messenger of God therefore means that after him there will not arise any person who will be authorized by God to express his will for others and/or institute a new religious direction by a new expression of the religious truth and forming a religious community around that expression. Any person claiming to have such authority is suffering from self-deception and/or is lying, no matter how smart he may be or how many miraculous deeds he may perform.

Now is this belief an authentic Islamic belief? or Is this belief reasonable?

When you look at the Quranic basis ( I know you said you haven`t read it ) and I`m going to go through with you chapter 33 v40 Muhammad is not the father of any male among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets; and God is aware of all things.

You see, here is the power of Arabic language, you cannot translate it because it will lose it`s meaning, you can just explain, and here the Arabic word for seal is khatam which by a change of vowel can also be read as khatim, meaning "that which puts the seal". Both words are derivatives of khatama, which means both to end or conclude something or to put a seal in order to indicate such an end or conclusion (you can yourself look into it in Lisan al-`Arab, Qamus, Aqrab al-Muwarid).

No matter how the word is supplied with vowels, which were omitted in the original Arabic script, the most reasonable way, if not the only way, to understand the verse is that Muhammad completed and closed the prophethood as a seal marks the completion and closure of a document, that is, he was the last prophet. This interpretation is also clear from the reference to the Prophet not leaving behind any son.

To understand this reference we need to recall that in the Arab society before Islam it was extremely important for a man to have a son. In fact the birth of a female was an occasion of sadness, as the Quran itself testifies:

They assign to God daughters -- Glory be to him! -- while to themselves (the sons) that they desire. When one of them is given the news of (the birth) of a female, his face is darkened and he is wroth inside. He hides himself from the people because of (what he considers to be) the ill of the news he has been given. (He asks himself): shall I keep it in contempt or bury it in the dust. Evil indeed is their judgment (both in regard to attributing daughters to God and the choices they give themselves regarding their own daughters) (16:57-59).

Some indeed buried their daughters alive. In regard to this the Quran says, referring to the day of judgment:

And when (about) the girl-infant who was buried alive (it) is asked, For what she was she killed?(81:8-9) .

Connected with this type of attitude was the belief that it is only through a son that a man gets posterity. A person without a son was called abtar (one who is cut off). The disbelievers applied this description to the Prophet because he did not have sons, although he did have daughters when he started his mission. Regarding this the Quran says:

We gave you (O Prophet) the abundance (of blessings) ;So pray to your Lord and sacrifice;It is surely your insulter who will be cut off (abtar) (108:1- 3).

So now turning to the description "seal of the prophets" the meaning of the reference to the absence of a male descendant of the Prophet now becomes clear: Muhammad may not live on through his male descendants according to your way of thinking, but he will live on for ever in a much more important way. For because of its finality, his prophethood will last forever and will be a source of everlasting and abundant blessings. (And in this way he will also deal a blow to your attitudes towards daughters.)

The above interpretation is further supported by the fact that the Quran never looks forward to a future revelation or prophet. Thus in the very beginning of the Quran the characteristics of the pious are given which include: Those who believe in what is sent down to you (O my Prophet) and in what was sent down before you (2:4) .

Read the Quran even if you are not interested and you will see there is no reference to what will be sent down after the Prophet. Nowhere else the Quran refers to a future prophet or revelation. The significance of this observation can be seen more clearly by a comparison with the Old and the New Testaments, where there are frequent references to future revelations. Thus in the Old Testament we find this promise of a future prophet or a series of prophets:

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [like Moses] from your own people; you shall heed such a prophet (Deut 18:15; see also 18:18).

Indeed, a great deal of the Old Testament is a prophecy of future revelation of one kind or another. Likewise, the New Testament also looks forward to future revelation:

And I [Jesus], will ask the Father and he will send you another Paraclete to be with you forever (John 14:16). I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come (John 16:12-13).

In contrast to both the Old and New Testaments, the chronologically last verse of the Quran declares:
Today I have completed my religion for you and perfected my favor on you and chosen al-islam as your religion (part of 5 :3).

The Quran regards itself as coming in fulfillment of earlier prophecy: Say, whether or not you believe in it, the fact is that those who possessed knowledge before it fall on their faces in humble prostration when it is recited to them. And they say, Glory to our Lord and Sustainer: Surely the promise of Our Lord and Sustainer was to be fulfilled! (17:107-108; see also, 7:157, 61:6).

But it does not prophesy for the coming after it of another revelation. Its prophecy is only of its own inevitable final victory: He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all religion, however much those who practice shirk may be averse (61:9).

This prevailing of Islam is not understood to be through any human force, but simply the result of the inevitable victory of a truer expression of the same religion over other expressions. Notice that the Quran does not say "prevail over all religions" but over all religion (in the singular). Every religion is really trying to express the same truth. Islam is the clearest and most effective expression of that truth and therefore is destined to replace all other expressions. It is like when a better and more economical model of a product such as the computer or the car comes on the market it necessarily replaces after due time the older less efficient and more expensive model.

The claimants of prophethood that have arisen from within the Muslim world and who therefore recognize the divine origin of the Quran or the followers of such claimants have tried to explain the words "seal (or last) of the prophets" in other ways. For example, it is said that the expression means: "the Prophet has reached the ultimate in excellence in all respect," that is, he was the last or seal of the prophet in the sense that he carried prophethood to its final point of development. In regard to such an interpretation the following points may be noted: First, the interpretation has doubtful support in the usage of the word khatam and certainly not supported by its usual meaning. Second, any interpretation of the expression must explain why it is combined in the Quran with the observation that the Prophet had no male descendant. Understanding "last" in the sense of the final point of development does not adequately provide the required explanation. Third, the view can be at the most accepted as a secondary interpretation which supports the primary interpretation in the sense that the prophethood has come to end by virtue of reaching its final point of development.

Do you want me to go through the Hadith basis?

Thanks for all that information but I will never believe that Muhammad was the last or final Prophet because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the last Prophet, although He never claimed to be the final Prophet, He said that Prophets would continue to be sent by God for all eternity.

God sends Messengers who act as Manifestations of God who transmit the Grace of God. According to the passage below God sends a Messenger in every age, which we refer to as a religious dispensation. The passage goes on to say that if for one moment God’s mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. So from that I deduce that when the effects of the Holy Spirit brought by a Messenger starts to wane in the world that is a signal for God to send the next Messenger.

That mercy and grace is bestowed upon mankind by means of the Messengers that God who bring the Holy Spirit and a “message” mankind needs for its present-day situation in order to survive and thrive. Whether everyone believes in them or not, no one has ever escaped these Messengers and they have never been hindered from achieving their purpose. They have been sent from eternity, and they will continue to succeed each other for eternity. The Grace of God can never cease from flowing.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.

Can one of sane mind ever seriously imagine that, in view of certain words the meaning of which he cannot comprehend, the portal of God’s infinite guidance can ever be closed in the face of men? Can he ever conceive for these Divine Luminaries, these resplendent Lights either a beginning or an end? What outpouring flood can compare with the stream of His all-embracing grace, and what blessing can excel the evidences of so great and pervasive a mercy? There can be no doubt whatever that if for one moment the tide of His mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. For this reason, from the beginning that hath no beginning the portals of Divine mercy have been flung open to the face of all created things, and the clouds of Truth will continue to the end that hath no end to rain on the soil of human capacity, reality and personality their favors and bounties. Such hath been God’s method continued from everlasting to everlasting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-69

 

[Trailblazer]

The Quranic verse under consideration says that Muhammad was a messenger and the seal of the prophets. That there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger is clear from this verse as well as others (And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet.... 22:52). But what is the difference?

The Quran assumes that the meaning of a prophet is well understood by its hearers. He is a figure who is inspired by God for some form of guidance for a people. He may not necessarily bring a new law or establish a new religious community, for in 4:44 a reference is made to the Israelite prophets who judged by the Torah rather than by a new law brought by them.

The messenger means one who is sent by God with a message. He also receives divine inspiration, for otherwise he cannot be "sent" by God. Hence every messenger is a prophet. All nations have received messengers, for the Quran says: "And for every nation there is a messenger" (10:47). Moreover, the messenger is meant to be obeyed: "We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by God's leave" (4:64). Nations that rejected the messengers sent to them were destroyed or punished (26: 105-191). Similar statements are not made about prophets. It thus appears that God acts through a messenger more decisively than through a mere prophet.

Thanks for that information. I do not really think that the Baha'i beliefs about prophets and messengers are different from the Islamic beliefs. I do not have time to explain that right now, but it was explained by Abdu'l-Baha in one of his twelve table talks:

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

 

[Trailblazer]

In his writings Bahaullah has ridiculed the Muslim belief in the end of prophethood as if this is a logical absurdity. Yet if one believes in the end of the world, this belief, far from being a logical absurdity is seen to be a logical necessity. For if history as we know it is bound to come to an end, then there has to be at least one last prophet. The question therefore is whether the belief in the end of the world is an absurd belief. Apart from the fact that such a belief is found in the teachings of many of the prophets whom Bahaullah recognizes, this belief is consistent with whatever we known about the universe. In this universe everything is in a state of transition. It is therefore to be expected that this world as we know it will one day be radically transformed so that it is no longer possible to think of it as the same world as before. This, as noted before, necessarily leads to the conclusion that there has to be a last prophet.

I do not consider that a valid argument for a last Prophet. First, there is no way to know if or when the world will end, but there is no reason to think it will be any time soon. All Baha'u'llah said is that as long as humans exist, God will send Prophets to reveal teachings and transmit the Grace of God, as I said in a previous post. Obviously, if the earth ceased to exist, there would be no more humans in need of Prophets.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah kept most of what He knew about the afterlife under his hat.

Here you go. Have fun, but I would tread lightly if you read the Heaven and Hell book, because hell is no place you would want to go. That book should be enough to make a believer about of anyone.
The Afterlife Revealed, Private Dowding, Heaven and Hell

Good, if anyone knows nothing, then the person can always claim that he/she is not telling everything because it would frighten others (and this is a favor to the questioners). People employ various strategies to hide their ignorance or to propagate their lies.

I have read these apocalypse and horror-genre books and seen the films in my childhood. I know better now and you cannot frighten me with this balderdash.

All the prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, OT and NT.
Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

As if there is any truth in prophecies of scriptures and their fulfillment. The whole edifice is built on untruth.

Thanks for all that information but I will never believe that Muhammad was the last or final Prophet because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the last Prophet, ..

People have different beliefs. I would neither believe that Jesus was son / messenger / prophet of God, nor Mohammad nor Bahaollah. You first have to establish the existence of God / Allah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have read these apocalypse and horror-genre books and seen the films in my childhood. I know better now and you cannot frighten me with this balderdash.

It is not me who is trying to frighten you, it is the author of that book, Heaven and Hell.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But it is you who mentioned the book or the frightful things that, you say, are mentioned in it. I am a grandpa and not a child (Chance permitting, I can be a great-grandpa in two or three years. My grand-daughter is an eligible candidate having completed her dentistry degree. ).

Dr. Kamakshi Raina

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All the prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the Messiah, OT and NT.

Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

I am quite certain they also fulfilled the prophecies of all the other religions since they all await a Messiah, but I am not familiar with those prophecies.

There is the thousand year reign prophecy.

Baha'u'llah could be mentioning it:


"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.

We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things".

Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me - Bahai9



I have also heard the Third Reich of Adolf Hitler is going to last 1000 years too.

The Nazi religion: "Positive Christianity".

The Party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and positive Christianity is National Socialism ... National Socialism is the doing of God's will ... God's will reveals itself in German blood ... Dr Zoellner and [Catholic Bishop of Münster] Count Galen have tried to make clear to me that Christianity consists in faith in Christ as the son of God. That makes me laugh... No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostles Creed. True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially the Fuehrer to a real Christianity ... the Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation".

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia



Thank you for the link to the information. I will have a look at it and will try to keep an open mind.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All Baha'u'llah said is that ..

Bahaollah is the authority for the minuscule number that Bahais are and not for any others. Why would others care for Bahaollah or his progeny?

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.
We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things".

Bahaollah is not only showing his character in these lines but also dragging in his Allah for his hateful purpose. Are not Bahaollah and his Allah all for love? Why all this cursing? Why not we would term Bahaollah himself as an imposter? The Shakespearean English does not hide Bahaollah's hatred for those who do not accept him.

 

[Duncan]

There are a lot of things that I believe in and a lot of things I do not believe in. It would take a long time if I started enumerating them before you. You would not understand all of them.

The question was simple brother. Is there an after life? Because you were quoting some verses of the Quran as it a fairy-tale of the after life, so I just wanted to know you opinion on the subject of the after life only

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, Duncan, there is life after death, but we may differ on what kind of life that is.

 

[Trailblazer]

But it is you who mentioned the book or the frightful things that, you say, are mentioned in it. I am a grandpa and not a child (Chance permitting, I can be a great-grandpa in two or three years. My grand-daughter is an eligible candidate having completed her dentistry degree. ).

View attachment 40440 Dr. Kamakshi Raina

It is not all frightful, more of it is wonderful than frightful, the part about heaven.
Congratulations on being even a grandpa, we have no children.

 

[Trailblazer]

You first have to establish the existence of God / Allah.

Nobody can establish that as a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaollah is not only showing his character in these lines but also dragging in his Allah for his hateful purpose.

It is not Baha'u'llah's character, it is God's character; it is not Baha'u'llah's purpose, it is God's purpose...
Baha'u'llah is just the Messenger, He does not run things.
It is not Baha'u'llah who is angry, He just speaks for God.
God does get angry when people lie about being a Prophet and try to lead people astray.

 

[Duncan]

Yeah, Duncan, there is life after death, but we may differ on what kind of life that is.

I would love to know your perception of what kind of life it will be only If you have time my friend

 

[Duncan]

What prophecies do you think they fulfilled?

It is a very good question you asked myself I would like to know because believe me or not, I digged as deep as you can imagine, I havent come across any prophecy in Baihism, neither the Bab was prophesied in the old testament, new testament or the Quran as Muhammed was awaiting prophet in OT, NT,and Quran. There is no mention of the Bab anywhere and I gave my sincere opinion and studies on that in one of my post

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nobody can establish that as a fact.

And they still blow their trumpet and claim authority on something the existence of which has not been established. A bit funny and also unfortunate.

It is not Baha'u'llah's character, it is God's character; it is not Baha'u'llah's purpose, it is God's purpose...
God does get angry when people lie about being a Prophet and try to lead people astray.

Is that the description of your loving Allah? How do we know that Bahaollah did not lie?

I would love to know your perception of what kind of life it will be only If you have time my friend

It is a bit more complicated than Quantum Mechanics. Would you be able to understand it?