Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[England my lionheart]

Response: I believe they would. What they don't like is when the UN decided to get together and give the Jews a piece of land that was originally tooken from them by European forces.

As far as i know it was given away by Egypt and Jordan although my country had some control (i use the term loosley) other than that Palestine was and is a hot potato that nobody wants.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: If the qur'an is true, then the facts inside are true. And in the qur'an we are told that Allah will guard the qur'an. (Ch.15:9) Therefore there is a promise from Allah himself that he will guard the qur'an and in ch.4:82 we are told that the qur'an is free from any discrepancy.

But the real question is "How do we know all of this is true?" Well the answer to that is ch.2:23 of the qur'an where humankind is challenged to produce a chapter like the qur'an. The whole purpose is to find out whether in fact the qur'an is man/woman made. If there is someone who can produce a chapter like the qur'an than the claim that the qur'an is from Allah goes out the window. But when he or she fails miserably in their attempts, then one must ask themself, "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me?" And the only logical answer is because Muhammad had the help of a Supreme being who's name is Allah. If there is someone who disagrees, the 1400+ year challenge still stands. Produce a chapter like it.

• “And if you are in doubt as to that which We have
  revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like
  it and call on your helpers besides Allah if you are
  truthful.
  But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it)…”
  The Holy Qur 'an Ch. 2:23-24
  

Now i know it's off thread but i cannot get my head around this claim,honestly,if this can be proven to be true i would be straight down the Mosque postrate on the floor.
In reality there is no proof,in reality it is faith,there isn't one religion in the world that can be proved,But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it)…”
well if you can ,do it.

 

[Fatihah]

• �And if you are in doubt as to that which We have
  revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like
  it and call on your helpers besides Allah if you are
  truthful.
  But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it)��
  The Holy Qur 'an Ch. 2:23-24
  

Now i know it's off thread but i cannot get my head around this claim,honestly,if this can be proven to be true i would be straight down the Mosque postrate on the floor.
In reality there is no proof,in reality it is faith,there isn't one religion in the world that can be proved,But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it)��
well if you can ,do it.

Response: The challenge still stands my friend. If you yourself can produce a chapter like one in the qur'an, I myself will throw away the kufi from atop my head and denounce the religion of islam as a man-made concept in front of everyone here.

 

[Luminous]

I haven't read the qur'an. i am leaning to think that producing a chapter like one in the qur'an is based solely upon the faith of one that reads it. i for one do not think that anything can be writen like Candide.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: The challenge still stands my friend. If you yourself can produce a chapter like one in the qur'an, I myself will throw away the kufi from atop my head and denounce the religion of islam as a man-made concept in front of everyone here.

OK show me this chapter,this piece of sublime writing,i am from a group islands that has some of the kings of literature,Shakespeare,Shelley,Keats,Wordsworth,Byron etc,the Canterbury tales and even Beowulf(West Saxons) so if it is so perfect i am yet to see it,a book cannot prove itself.

 

[YmirGF]

Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball cannot bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

I am hard pressed to understand why anyone in their right mind would bother over such a trivial thing.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself! What better logic of proof can be better than that?

Even though this is a pretty breath-taking example of logic, I suppose I will just go with it. It is hard to imagine people arguing over something as elementary as doing so isn’t logical however; the final test is an obvious solution. Even a child, with no understanding of logic, would simply attempt to bounce the ball.

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the Qur’an. In Ch: 4:82 of the Qur’an we read,

Will they not, then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

I humbly disagree. This merely shows that the writer was somewhat consistent. Just by the fact that many alleged inconsistencies in the Qur’an need further explanation to show that they are somehow not inconsistent is evidence that there are inconsistencies; thus the reasoning and motivation of the apologist must necessarily be taken into account.

Besides this is the reality that this, in no way, proves that God Almighty wrote said book, as it doesn’t prove a thing about the actual identity of the author. We have only the alleged impeccability of Muhammad’s word. An argument that requires a leap of faith unfortunately is not a very solid argument. In theory, God would know better.

Also in Ch. 2:23 we read

And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful.

One major problem with this is in the motivation for taking up the challenge. One could also argue that one single version of a “Qur’anic class” piece of literature is quite enough and there is no need to saddle humanity with any similar effort.

My suspicion is that one could only write a suitable work if they wanted to start an entirely new religion as without the necessary zeal or drive, it is unlikely that one could make much headway. Also, the challenge does not say if it would be permissible to use the Qur’an as a blueprint, much like Islam used Christian and Jewish sources for its foundations.

Another idea is that most would realize that the so-called “challenge” simply isn’t worth the bother, as the likelihood of Muslims accepting anything addressing the challenge would be put under such scrutiny that every word would be checked against every other word. That, of course, leads us to the question of who is worthy to judge the success of such an endeavour. A challenge that is made in the knowledge that there would be next to no takers isn’t much of a challenge. It’s a safe bet. It is also called bravado.

Further to this is the distinct possibility of drawing negative attention to oneself for crushing the dreams of so many of the faithful. I rather expect that if someone did manage to pull this off, for whatever reason, that doing so would earn them a death sentence for providing the ultimate insult to Islam.

My last difficulty with the passage is the distinct possibility that if a person wrote anything that disagreed with any aspect of the Qur’an, it would automatically void their work. Personally, I don’t think it is either a realistic challenge or even a meaningful challenge.

I am curious though if anyone has ever taken up the challenge.

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the Qur’an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the Qur’an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted.

Given that nothing has been proven this is little more than an idle boast.

 

[Fatihah]

OK show me this chapter,this piece of sublime writing,i am from a group islands that has some of the kings of literature,Shakespeare,Shelley,Keats,Wordsworth,Byron etc,the Canterbury tales and even Beowulf(West Saxons) so if it is so perfect i am yet to see it,a book cannot prove itself.

Response: A book is not proving itself in the challenge.

 

[Fatihah]

I haven't read the qur'an. i am leaning to think that producing a chapter like one in the qur'an is based solely upon the faith of one that reads it. i for one do not think that anything can be writen like Candide.

Response: It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made. Muhammad used a religion to inspired enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

 

[YmirGF]

Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

I guess you have not heard of the concept of being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product. Would this assumption be correct?

I'd suggest that those elements were more formative than any external help from Allah, but hey, that's just me. In effect, Muhammad got lucky.

Look at Bill Gates. By his own admission, he just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, and did the right thing. Now he is one of the wealthiest men on the planet and his work as changed ALL of our lives irrevocably. Ditto the two Steve's at Apple. They revolutionized the way we live and for example, most Windows users probably don't realize just how influential they were not so many years ago. Did Allah shine his light on them and make them successful? (To the best of my knowledge, all three are atheists, though I should endeavor to validate that.) There is little possibility that their profound accomplishments will be going away any time soon.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Response: It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made. Muhammad used a religion to inspired enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

What about Joseph Smith? His writings (or God's writings if you accept them as inspired of God, which I doubt) have inspired millions of people. He certainly didn't "fail miserably". I don't think conquering a nation is a good test of a religion. In any event it puts it in a bad light. What kind of religion inspires people to conquer nations?

 

[Fatihah]

I humbly disagree. This merely shows that the writer was somewhat consistent. Just by the fact that many alleged inconsistencies in the Qur’an need further explanation to show that they are somehow not inconsistent is evidence that there are inconsistencies; thus the reasoning and motivation of the apologist must necessarily be taken into account.

Response: If your claim is that there are discrepancies and inconsistancies in the qur'an, then show them to us and let's examine.

Quote: YmirGF
Besides this is the reality that this, in no way, proves that God Almighty wrote said book, as it doesn’t prove a thing about the actual identity of the author. We have only the alleged impeccability of Muhammad’s word. An argument that requires a leap of faith unfortunately is not a very solid argument. In theory, God would know better.

Response: I agree. This does not prove that God wrote the book. The verse is simply a challenge for those who believe that the qur'an is not from God and if they are able to point out a discrepancy, then it is not from God. At the same time, if they fail, it does not prove that it IS from God either.

Quote: YmirGF




One major problem with this is in the motivation for taking up the challenge. One could also argue that one single version of a “Qur’anic class” piece of literature is quite enough and there is no need to saddle humanity with any similar effort.

Response: They can argue what they like but the challenge still stands.

Quote: YmirGF
My suspicion is that one could only write a suitable work if they wanted to start an entirely new religion as without the necessary zeal or drive, it is unlikely that one could make much headway. Also, the challenge does not say if it would be permissible to use the Qur’an as a blueprint, much like Islam used Christian and Jewish sources for its foundations.

Response: Another statement. Where's the proof that islam used Christian and Jewish sources? But the qur'an does adress your statement with a challenge similar to the one already stated in ch.10:38 which reads, "Do they say, 'He has forged it?' Say, 'Bring then a like unto it, and call for help on all you can, apart from Allah, if you are truthfull'."

Quote: YmirGF
Another idea is that most would realize that the so-called “challenge” simply isn’t worth the bother, as the likelihood of Muslims accepting anything addressing the challenge would be put under such scrutiny that every word would be checked against every other word. That, of course, leads us to the question of who is worthy to judge the success of such an endeavour. A challenge that is made in the knowledge that there would be next to no takers isn’t much of a challenge. It’s a safe bet. It is also called bravado.

Response: There is no judge but the person who is searching for the truth. It is for them to judge for themselves.

Quote: YmirGF
Further to this is the distinct possibility of drawing negative attention to oneself for crushing the dreams of so many of the faithful. I rather expect that if someone did manage to pull this off, for whatever reason, that doing so would earn them a death sentence for providing the ultimate insult to Islam.

Response: Many heroes die for what they believe in.

Quote: YmirGF
My last difficulty with the passage is the distinct possibility that if a person wrote anything that disagreed with any aspect of the Qur’an, it would automatically void their work. Personally, I don’t think it is either a realistic challenge or even a meaningful challenge.

Response: To those who want to know the truth, it is very meaningful.

Quote: YmirGF
I am curious though if anyone has ever taken up the challenge.

Response: Some have and have failed miserably.

Quote: YmirGF
Given that nothing has been proven this is little more than an idle boast.

Response: Nothing can be proven if one doesn't take up the challenge.

 

[Fatihah]

I guess you have not heard of the concept of being in the right place, at the right time, with the right product. Would this assumption be correct?

Response: Not at all.

Quote: YmirGF
I'd suggest that those elements were more formative than any external help from Allah, but hey, that's just me. In effect, Muhammad got lucky.

Response: Yes Muhammad was lucky. He was lucky to have Allah as his guide.

Quote: YmirGF
Look at Bill Gates. By his own admission, he just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, and did the right thing. Now he is one of the wealthiest men on the planet and his work as changed ALL of our lives irrevocably. Ditto the two Steve's at Apple. They revolutionized the way we live and for example, most Windows users probably don't realize just how influential they were not so many years ago. Did Allah shine his light on them and make them successful? (To the best of my knowledge, all three are atheists, though I should endeavor to validate that.)
There is little possibility that their profound accomplishments will be going away any time soon.

Response: Exactly what is meant by the right place at the right time for Bill Gates and Steve at apples? From what I know, they worked hard to get what they have. That's not being at the right place at the right time.

 

[Fatihah]

What about Joseph Smith? His writings (or God's writings if you accept them as inspired of God, which I doubt) have inspired millions of people. He certainly didn't "fail miserably". I don't think conquering a nation is a good test of a religion. In any event it puts it in a bad light. What kind of religion inspires people to conquer nations?

Response: Well, Joseph Smith did create a religion, or for that sake of argument, let's say he didn't. This is actually from God. The question I would ask is if it is from God than wouldn't God support it? Assuming the answer is yes, why is it not superceding the other religions? The fact that it isn't shows that God is not supporting it. As for conquering nations, the religion of islam doesn't teach us to go out and conquer nations, but it reminds us that when another religion tries to supress islam, islam will always conquer them and win.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Response: Well, Joseph Smith did create a religion, or for that sake of argument, let's say he didn't. This is actually from God. The question I would ask is if it is from God than wouldn't God support it? Assuming the answer is yes, why is it not superceding the other religions? The fact that it isn't shows that God is not supporting it. As for conquering nations, the religion of islam doesn't teach us to go out and conquer nations, but it reminds us that when another religion tries to supress islam, islam will always conquer them and win.

Well, to continue this. For the sake of argument, let's say that God is supporting it. It is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. Over half of it's 12,000,000+ members are converts to the religion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized in 1830, in Fayette, New York. http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html#Today it is the fourth largest religious body in the United States and the sixth largest international Christian religious body in the world. There are approximately 800 converts to Mormonism per day. That doesn't sound to me like "failing miserably" to me.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Exactly what is meant by the right place at the right time for Bill Gates and Steve at apples? From what I know, they worked hard to get what they have. That's not being at the right place at the right time.

You might want to investigate their very earliest years, Fatihah. I have seen a very candid interview with Bill Gates where he said that he was just there, at the right time, in the right place (or position TO provide) when IBM came calling. The rest is history. Ditto for the Steve's that founded Apple Computer. They hit the market with a crazy idea, that people wanted, at exactly the right time. If you are the slightest bit interested in the evolution of the computer industry, I heartily recommend a film called, "The Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires" (1996)". Having been involved with the computer industry since the mid-80's I can attest to the accuracy of the program.

 

[YmirGF]

That doesn't sound to me like "failing miserably" to me.

No DavyCrocket, it doesn't sound like something that is "failing miserably" to me either. If the truth be told, I have always been rather fond of the LDS church and its members, though of course, I could never seriously consider becoming a Christian or an LDS follower.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

No DavyCrocket, it doesn't sound like something that is "failing miserably" to me either. If the truth be told, I have always been rather fond of the LDS church and its members, though of course, I could never seriously consider becoming a Christian or an LDS follower.

That's great. I can understand. My point is that I think Joseph Smith either passed the Quran's test, or he actually was legit.

 

[kai]

Response: Nothing to which I can disagree with. However, no war was started by Abu Bakr and the muslims during this conquest. It is the job of every muslim to preach the word of islam but in those times, any religion or way of life that differed from the way the king or ruler of a particular people lived was not accepted which would cause wars between the ruler and the opposing group who does not wish to follow them. So when islam was presented to the non-muslims, many would embrace it while others would fight the muslims. So in an effort to defend themselves, yes the muslims went to war and yes the religion of islam was vastly spread this is not due to force or compulsion but the simple fact that once you lose a war, naturally you lose your right to be ruler of the land. So now that the muslims are in control, it makes the religion of islam much more accessible to non-muslims and because of this, the non-muslims realized the religion of truth and ran towards islam willing to embrace it.

Pax Islamica?

 

[kai]

Response: People tend to focus so much on the fact that a person is killed for apostasy in the hadiths but never seem to keen in on the other elements in the hadith.

This man was a muslim then suddenly became a jew. Why does the man become a jew? He does not say. Let's also keep in mind that no one can know who's a muslim and who's a jew unless they publically confess it. So this man must have publically denounced the religion of islam and became a jew. Now here's my question, if you know that death is a punishment for apostasy, why on earth does a man publically proclaim he is an apostate? This shows that the man was either going to wage war on islam or had a serious death wish.

Also notice how comfortable one of the muslims were with the man in the hadith. In another narration when the two muslims learned that he was an apostate, the man began to run for his life. Why? He could have simply said that he wasn't an apostate or simply asked for peace but he did neither. Therefore, this man clearly had an agenda to harm the muslims.

You see it was a strategedy for non-muslims to say that they are muslims then when the muslim have their backs turned, they attack. Again, notice how comfortable the other muslim was around him. He would have been easy prey.

Perhaps you could save all the arguments and just tell us:

Do you believe that Apostates should die?

Do you believe that the act of sodomy justifies the death sentence?

a simple yes or no would suffice

 

[kai]

Response: Exactly. I as a muslim will disagree with certain claims of christianity. But that's it. It's a disagreement. There is no defamation and slander on the part of any muslim organization that I know of in which they try to stress that the teachings of christianity is violence. They may be hated. Yes. There may be muslims who love to point out that there have been evil christians. But no one says its principle teaching is to be violent. Yes all religious groups have their black sheep, islam included, but there is an exception when it comes to islam. People are going beyond stating that the religion has evil members and want us to believe that terrorism and violence is actually a principle teaching. That's the difference between islam and all other religions. This has always made me wonder why islam is the only exception but I wonder no more. I know propaganda when I see it and hopefully we all will see the truth of the matter.

Quite simply a considerable amount of Muslims in many parts of the world carry out violence and advocate violence in the name of Islam. Its a fact.
Now Muslims can answer this anomaly if that is what it is by explaining it or not. and the first people they should be explaining it too is each other.

Its not for us to provide quotes in the Quran or Sunnah that justify the acts of Taliban etc . Its up to those Muslims that promote the religion of peace/no compulsion in religion ideas to provide quotes etc that prove just the opposite.